[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Isekaijin]

You know. I've been wondering for a while.

Did someone state in red that the dungeon where Kyrie's group was being held captive in EP4 was actually below Kuwadorian? That Goldsmith thing was very nice and all but how much of that is actually true?

So I'll try my blue truth.

The dungeon was actually in a place close enough for the culprit to carry the bodies of Kyrie, Krauss, Nanjo, Shannon and Kanon. There are two passages, a secret one which connects to the mansion and another known one which was the one they used to escape. They probably were disoriented while escaping. The passage doesn't connect the mansion to Kuwadorian.

That pretty much explains Gaap's gaps.

[Vega Lyra]

Hey...Can somebody tell me whether Nanjo's granddaughter was mentioned when Ange visited Nanjo's son? Is his granddaughter the daughter of the said son?
The thing is, I have a hunch...and I want to first confirm it, even though I just read through the Ange/Nanjo son scene. I could have missed something...

[imaginari]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

In EP4, when Beato first talks to Battler on the phone, she says something like: "Although we've slapped each other with abuse and fought many times before, this is the first time we've actually talked to each other on the game board." Then, before she confronts him over his sin, she starts talking about a bunch of things that sound like they require meta knowledge:

• golden butterflies and anti-magic toxin, not mentioned to Battler this episode
• the existence of multiple games and multiple worlds
• Battler's explanation of magical elements that no one observed as the "witch's illusion", which he's only done in the meta world

You can't say that Battler died and this is a fake scene either, because Battler is alive at midnight on October 5th. So has anyone come up with any kind of viable explanation for how this conversation could have taken place, other than A) Beato is a human with memory of past games or B) she's an actual supernatural entity?

How about this: C) Meta-Beatrice is created in part from Real-Beatrice's fantasies, and in turn "directs" the fantasy scenes to be consistent with things that Real-Battler will hear, including the balcony speech itself. Therefore it is likely that both Beatrices will talk about similar things.

[LyricalAura]

So according to that theory, Real-Beatrice has some kind of complex fantasy life she's made up that parallels what Battler's been experiencing in the meta world? Or am I misunderstanding you?

[Arkwright]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

In EP4, when Beato first talks to Battler on the phone, she says something like: "Although we've slapped each other with abuse and fought many times before, this is the first time we've actually talked to each other on the game board." Then, before she confronts him over his sin, she starts talking about a bunch of things that sound like they require meta knowledge:

• golden butterflies and anti-magic toxin, not mentioned to Battler this episode
• the existence of multiple games and multiple worlds
• Battler's explanation of magical elements that no one observed as the "witch's illusion", which he's only done in the meta world

You can't say that Battler died and this is a fake scene either, because Battler is alive at midnight on October 5th. So has anyone come up with any kind of viable explanation for how this conversation could have taken place, other than A) Beato is a human with memory of past games or B) she's an actual supernatural entity?

Isn't this the same situation as Kyrie's phone call with Battler?

I.e., D) All of it is jibber-jabber intending to make Battler think a witch did it, and multiple people might have been in on it.

That's assuming Battler is a reliable narrator in the first place. Actually, just came up with another possibility. E) Battler actually started drinking before he took the test, or perhaps Maria drugged him somehow, so he imagined the whole phone call, or most of it.

[Metaler]

Originally Posted by Vega Lyra

Hey...Can somebody tell me whether Nanjo's granddaughter was mentioned when Ange visited Nanjo's son? Is his granddaughter the daughter of the said son?
The thing is, I have a hunch...and I want to first confirm it, even though I just read through the Ange/Nanjo son scene. I could have missed something...

I don't think so... Well, I'm not exactly sure either. They mostly talked about that letter and PIN.
You're thinking that Nanjo's granddaughter died and not him, right? She did have some kind of disease, after all.

[Xapheron]

Originally Posted by imaginari

How about this: C) Meta-Beatrice is created in part from Real-Beatrice's fantasies, and in turn "directs" the fantasy scenes to be consistent with things that Real-Battler will hear, including the balcony speech itself. Therefore it is likely that both Beatrices will talk about similar things.

Isn't that basically what's happening? That's why Meta!Beatrice wants Meta!Battler to solve the mysteries. Since Meta!Battler is essentially the sub-conscious of Piece!Battler, what Meta!Battler wants to do will be done by Piece!Battler. There's that scene where Piece!Beatrice tells Meta!Beatrice in Kinzo's study that she's tired and doesn't want to play anymore and wants to her to take over. Yeah, she makes fantasy scenes which are symbolic/representative of what really is happening. You don't seriously believe that loser flags helped Krauss beat Goat-kun.

Originally Posted by Arkwright

Isn't this the same situation as Kyrie's phone call with Battler?

I.e., D) All of it is jibber-jabber intending to make Battler think a witch did it, and multiple people might have been in on it.

That's assuming Battler is a reliable narrator in the first place. Actually, just came up with another possibility. E) Battler actually started drinking before he took the test, or perhaps Maria drugged him somehow, so he imagined the whole phone call, or most of it.

Huh? IIRC, he wasn't drinking before the phone call, so anything due to effects of alcohol are out. As for drugging, I really don't think... The phone call could have been a really clever record, isn't that hard predicting a panicking Battler will say.

[vendredi]

Originally Posted by Metaler

My guess is that both Beato and Battler are like...

Spoiler for Higurashi:

Rika, so it's possible that they can travel through kakera.

I'm hesitant to characterize them as travelers to the same degree; I've argued in the Maria thread that Umineko seems to smack much more strongly of Catholic elements rather than the Buddhist ones in Higurashi, and I don't think Ryukishi07 would recycle the same mechanic so strongly.

I'm more of the opinion is that the Meta-world is exactly how it's presented, a place where Beatrice pulled in the first Battler that allows Beatrice to either:

a)view various different kakera

or the one I prefer,

b)present a depiction of alternate events (not actually viewing different realities, but Beatrice either simply conjuring up an illusory vision of events, or perhaps simply "resetting the island" - turning back the clock, bringing people to life, etc.; hence the description of the events as her "gameboard")

[Echoman]

Originally Posted by vendredi

I'm hesitant to characterize them as travelers to the same degree; I've argued in the Maria thread that Umineko seems to smack much more strongly of Catholic elements rather than the Buddhist ones in Higurashi, and I don't think Ryukishi07 would recycle the same mechanic so strongly.

I'm more of the opinion is that the Meta-world is exactly how it's presented, a place where Beatrice pulled in the first Battler that allows Beatrice to either:

a)view various different kakera

or the one I prefer,

b)present a depiction of alternate events (not actually viewing different realities, but Beatrice either simply conjuring up an illusory vision of events, or perhaps simply "resetting the island" - turning back the clock, bringing people to life, etc.; hence the description of the events as her "gameboard")

The way Bernkastel was talking about it to Ange, it really seemed to me that it was more the "a" explanation.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Vega Lyra

Hey...Can somebody tell me whether Nanjo's granddaughter was mentioned when Ange visited Nanjo's son? Is his granddaughter the daughter of the said son?
The thing is, I have a hunch...and I want to first confirm it, even though I just read through the Ange/Nanjo son scene. I could have missed something...

It's in the tips. Masayuki Nanjo had a daughter afflicted by an incurable disease and she died after the Rokkenjima incident.

It is most likely the grandchild Nanjo was talking about in Ep3

[vendredi]

Originally Posted by Echoman

The way Bernkastel was talking about it to Ange, it really seemed to me that it was more the "a" explanation.

Actually, it's Bernkastel's nature that makes me think of the B explanation - it's implied that both Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are "Voyager" witches from the TIPS given at the end of episode 4 - witches that can traverse the sea of kakera.

Beatrice, on the other hand, is specifically not mentioned as a Voyager witch and it is implied that she is rooted to her home kakera; although weaker than Bern and Lambda she has a home court advantage in that sense. Hence, I'm not convinced that Beatrice and Battler are shifting through various kakera. Granted, it may be easier to view different kakera than it is to travel to them, but still it strikes me that the ability to access other kakera at all is special to the Voyager witches.

[Kamar]

I was under the impression that what made a witch a Voyager was the ability to use her powers outside of her own domain, not necessarily the ability to travel.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

any red truth stated by Beatrice and Lambadelta can be accepted to be absolutely true, without word tricks! This means that if Beatrice claims "Nanjo is dead", it means that the Nanjo who lives on Rokkenjima and is Kinzo's friend is dead, not some stupid tricks like a Nanjo in Africa is dead. And if Beatrice claims no body doubles, then there are no body doubles.

I am afraid saying Lambda's red truth can be accepted and hers contained no word tricks would put you in trouble for EP5, unless of course you meant the blue texts just worked for EP4.

The problem is: Sometimes the context was clear, but sometimes not. Anyone can argue about whether it is clear but cannot prove it. Let's settle it till the truth is revealed, perhaps you are correct. The only thing I am sure is we cannot persuade each other.

I don't take sleeping pills so I don't know how long it should take for someone to fall asleep under the pills' effect. And especially I don't know how long it took for adult who had been dosed with child sedative. And to think that the sedatives had to be distributed for six adults, I really don't know. So it is unclear how long they could sustain without falling asleep (though if they had taken alcohol, it should be quick).

How long does it take to go from the mansion to the chapel? Five minutes? Ten minutes? I don't know.

[Jan-Poo]

I admit I didn't quite followed the whole discussion. But why is there any need for the culprit to use Rosa's (or whatever) sleeping pills? This whole situation was carefully planned beforehand and there is evidence that the culprit used a wide array of different weapons (including guns), I don't think it would be so strange if he is in possess of some sort of poison or strong sedative.

[ijriims]

Because my stance is Rosa unintentionally murdered the six in the chapel, and she was not Beatrice and knew nothing about Beatrice's plan before she was told the truth by Genji.

The only drug she could access to was the child-sedative she used on Maria. (and Natsuhi's headache and sedative? I actually forgot where I knew she had the sedative. Can anyone tell me which episode (EP3?) and which chapter? Thanks)

[Arkwright]

Ep3 first twilight:

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!


Should I take this as confirmation that these 6 people are 6 distinct people? (For example, that Shannon is not Kanon, or whatever else.)

The 6 people died instantly!
None of the 6 people committed suicide!

Furthermore these two lines, particularly the first one, seem interesting to me in that they by necessity include "Kinzo." It says he died instantly, but I can't really imagine any natural death being described that way, so this seems like a suggestion that he died by murder (even if it happened in the past.)

Alternately, this could be referring to a different "Kinzo" whose identity we're not clear about (inherited name), which would be interesting in itself.

Kanon has always seemed like a candidate for being the other Kinzo or Battler, although if I take the "6 people" literally, he can't be this Kinzo at least.

[Jan-Poo]

We discussed that not much time ago. Even a natural death can be considered to be instant, like in the case of a heart attack or a stroke (embolism or thrombosis)

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Because my stance is Rosa unintentionally murdered the six in the chapel

And we all continue to tell you how improbable this is.

[ijriims]

If you say my stance is highly improbable, then

the remaining possibility was: Rosa intentionally killed the sixes?

or someone else unintentionally/intentionally killed the sixes? (real Beatrice, staker X, murderer X, or anyone?)

Do you think they were drugged before? Why Rosa was not drugged if so? Did Rosa know the identity of the murderer then, we knew that at least someone had three pieces of gold beforehand?

Or do you really think Rosa would plan to kill the six? The scene which shown her encounter with Beatrice was non-existent or an act put by her and imposter? If she had planned all these, why it did not happen in other episodes?

There are a lot to yet to be explained even if my stance was wrong,.

(I am arrogant at times, if I have annoyed you in the past. I apologize to you here. But I feel I can't continue this discussion since your wording implied me as the only one wrong in this whole thread)

[Knicknevin]

I think that the gold sitting on the table represented the majority of Kinzo's original gold. My personal theory is that Kinzo fooled the bank president he gave the one gold ingot to, and only had a couple ingots of genuine gold: The one that the pres took, and Krauss eventually found and hid, and the three that someone else found and put on that table.

Since Rosa solved the epitaph in Episode 3, it's possible she also figured it out in Ep 2 as well. And if she realized that most of Kinzo's gold was fake, she knew right away that the plan of splitting it among the siblings wouldn't work. She wanted those three ingots for herself, so she (or whoever the real killer is if it wasn't her) drugged the others and disemboweled them.