Guilty Crown - General Discussion

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Considering what's happened in the anime, I don't see how any of that fits their relationship at all.

In light of episode 5, I'd say that "longs to be like" fits - he does envy the respect that Gai has from everyone, despite thinking that the latter doesn't deserve it.

[EroKing]

I think I know where this idea of Shu pulling out the void out of himself started from. Just because Lelouch was able to use his "Power of the King" on himself I doubt we would see that same with Shu

[higoku1]

I just made an interesting observation while re-watching the episode 1: I'm sure most of you guys agree that genetics, especially DNA is one of the common themes or symbols of GC. While I was watching the part where Inori offered her cats cradle to Shu, I couldn't help but notice that the cradle looked extremely similar to a DNA strand.

So in this case when the mystery girl from Shu's memory is giving him the cradle and told him to take it this time for sure, I think she really meant the Power of Kings.

Opinions?

[Kaoru Chujo]

I am not calling for a subforum, since I don't really like them, or complaining in any way. But as a matter of interest, I note that this show now has around a hundred more posts than Horizon. My rough addition gives Horizon about 2160 posts in all its threads, while GC has 2266. Even if a lot of posts here are negative, people sure seem to be interested in this show.

I can't find a real Japanese name Tsutsugami 恙神. But the kanji used for "tsutsu" in the credits means "illness" and the one for "kami" means "god." The sick god?

As for Ouma 桜満, that doesn't appear to be a real surname either, but the kanji used mean "cherry-tree" and "full." That feels to me like "cherry-tree in bloom." Whatever that might mean in context.

Episode 7 will be starting in Japan in approximately 12 hours.

@Flawnalyst, Random32 -- I think Shinkai is a genius, but plot may not be his strength. 5cm/sec was like a series of visual/aural haiku, conveying a deep understanding of the reality of the world, and its pathos. The overall plot intensified that, but was not the main driver of the film. I think of it as a Buddhist film, communicating the unsatisfactoriness and suffering of this beautiful world.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Edit:

Chaos2Frozen beat me to it.

You know me- I just love to correct people.

Makes me feel like a big man.

Originally Posted by karice67

In light of episode 5, I'd say that "longs to be like" fits - he does envy the respect that Gai has from everyone, despite thinking that the latter doesn't deserve it.

I would go so far and say "thinks he's a dick".

Originally Posted by TheEroKing

I think I know where this idea of Shu pulling out the void out of himself started from. Just because Lelouch was able to use his "Power of the King" on himself I doubt we would see that same with Shu

Lelouch doesn't go unconscious when he used that power on himself

[Flawfinder]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I am not calling for a subforum, since I don't really like them, or complaining in any way. But as a matter of interest, I note that this show now has around a hundred more posts than Horizon. My rough addition gives Horizon about 2160 posts in all its threads, while GC has 2266. Even if a lot of posts here are negative, people sure seem to be interested in this show.

@Flawnalyst, Random32 -- I think Shinkai is a genius, but plot may not be his strength. 5cm/sec was like a series of visual/aural haiku, conveying a deep understanding of the reality of the world, and its pathos. The overall plot intensified that, but was not the main driver of the film. I think of it as a Buddhist film, communicating the unsatisfactoriness and suffering of this beautiful world.

Well, I won't lie that we're interested in the show. Something about it keeps drawing us in to watch the show and "complain" about it a lot on these forums.

Anyways, I respect Shinkai for everything he goes through to make his movies and I do sort of get that 5 cm/sec resembles short stories from old times (like the Monkey's Paw, only without being caught in the machinery). And those aren't bad, as I like Mushishi. The problem is though, Mushishi had lively characters, while 5cm/sec...for two people in love, they sure don't show much excitement. And despite his intentions, I'm sure Shinkai wanted us to care about the characters. I didn't, so there's not much to be said about that.

[pseudonhym]

watched episode 5 just now... kinda felt sorry for Shu, not that I really care though. I guess he's the type of person that would be used and not a user-type (contradicts his power though since he uses other peoples void)

[MrTerrorist]

ANN reviews the first 5 episodes of Guilty Crown and gave it a B

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

ANN reviews the first 5 episodes of Guilty Crown and gave it a B

That's a pretty fair rating. Although I'll probably bump it up to B+ myself due to visuals and audio. At least ANN didn't completely lose the ball this time like they with Fate/Zero (C for Fate/Zero... wtf)

[Archon_Wing]

Carl Kimlinger

Fail, he's the guy that wrote that shitty Nanoha review.

Well, actually it was fair for the most part; though a bit overbearingly harsh as per his review style. It's annoying to have a valid point and keep hammering in and expecting me to care for the 50th time. Weird that I'd give this a C+ thus far and I feel he's being harsh. I feel the tone is rather negative for such a good grade.

Much better than ANN's f/zero review for sure.

[JediNight]

I put little value in reviews that try to grade things on a scale. As it's all just an opinion piece, and people will either agree or disagree with the letter grades.

I can't argue that there are issues with the plot and the portrayal of the MC so far (although I'm not nearly as down on him as some in this thread), but giving the series a C+ for Music? Really? I can't wait for the OST to come out IMHO.

EDIT: He invoked the "Evangelion Rei-clone" statement. He automatically loses the argument. It's like invoking Godwin's Law with Hitler/Nazis.

[Archon_Wing]

Nothing wrong with scale grading. The entire review is subject to disagreement and it's nice to see where it stands in their opinion towards other works.

Although it's not fun to be black and white, the lazy are often going to ask one question: Was it a positive experience, and to what extent. Sure the reasoning behind it is gonna be more important, but snapshot impressions help a lot. And everyone understands the concept of what grades mean, as opposed to something even more abstract like "I enjoyed it"

As for the music. It is definitely good in parts, but I feel it's pretty hit and miss. It's amazing in some parts and negligible in others. However, the composer also did the work for Gundam Unicorn, and that in particular puts Guilty Crown to shame. Still, C+ might be a bit too harsh, but not outrageous.

My main problem is that the review consistently uses the gripes about cliche to the point where... it becomes cliche. This never ending spinning of circular reasoning doesn't really get into the core of why the show is issues. Is it because concepts have been done before? No. Really, does this anime really feel like a rehash of anything? Despite all these Code Geass comparisons being thrown around, I hardly would have trouble separating the two. It's a good thing I didn't care for Geass, so I wouldn't have to deal with the endless and eventually mindless comparisons. Nearly everything is derivative, after all.

And with that in mind, I feel the criticism is repetitious, almost like he had to pad out the review because he had nothing to say.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Soji

felix@I think you're a little too harsh against Shu.
From what we know about about Shu personality it seems to me that the anime is showing perfectly his reactions.
I am sure that anyone in his place with the same personality has his would react in his same way.

I quite frankly have very little interest in realism in an animated series. I also find modern day obsession over realism overrated. It's like the only thing people know how to argue with.

That said I don't find him realistic. He's way too calm for the situation (most of the time he doesn't really think about it), he's also overreacts to various random things as opposed to thinking of his current situation. A good example would be how he got duped by GHQ guy. That was all very conveniently singleminded of him. The fact he has friends, which aparently he does talk to and care about him, makes his personality even more wierd. He's not normal at all, you don't need to teach a normal person to think properly which is where the series is going with Shu... (at the moment anyway)

Originally Posted by Soji

And frankly I find Shu very realistic seeing the personality he has.

Well, I don't, not that it makes a difference really.

He's really annoying (to me). But I said that already.

Originally Posted by Soji

And if you think about it , the same Shu said its own flaws .
The thing that worries me is if he ever will trust someone else after what happen in episode 5 with Inori she just make Shu trusting issue even bigger.
will be very interesting to see how Shu will overcome these trusting issue (and who will help him to do so) and as he will develop as a person.

Him saying "this and that are my flaws" doesn't really excuse anything in my eyes. He said it in very broad all-catching wording too, so I don't really put much emphasis on it. It's like with Inori. Oh we're suppose to feel for Inori x Shu but she's done so little to nothing I can't really see why I should care for Inori and Shu's relationship.

One word won't excuse a chracter. Why do you suggest that somehow if a character declares himself annoying then I'm suppose to like him?

Originally Posted by djmaca

I'm getting tired of people hating the show, throwing crap and trying to pass it as valid complains while saying "hahaha, this show stinks."

Then don't read them.

Originally Posted by djmaca

"Because by being so down he's pulling the entire series down?"

Its like saying "I won't feel suicidal if you ruin my life and tricked me by using women".

No it's like saying "sticking magical wood elves in a sci-fi universe would be bad". I having a hard time understanding what you mean with that analogy there.

Originally Posted by djmaca

Shuu had it rough. He likes Inori genuinely. He doesn't like fighting. He's definitely NOT a shounen hero: He's just some dude who accidentally got power.

I don't care to be honest. Shu has a deeper relationship with Ayase at this point then he did with Inori over 4 episodes, as far as I'm concerned. That speaks loads of how weak his relationship with Inori is at the moment. And they barely talk so I find it hard to imagine their relationship being anything but physical; ie. if Inori wasn't his type, or wearing that redicoulas outfit, Shu wouldn't give a damn.

Originally Posted by djmaca

Like I was saying in Randomc, he has no obligation whatsoever to join Gai and the FP, unless it concerns Inori.

"...there's a difference between "weak" and "completely against what the series wants him to be."

And he's the "completely against what the series wants him to be?" Nope. Its actually part of the plot that he's completely against being your "typical shounen hero". The series wants him to be that way. See Shuu had a life before Gai and Inori turned up. Without them, Shuu would still friends with Sugar, would not be a convict, and would still be a normal guy.

He's not orignal or anything, he basically just tackes the usual weaknesses/negative traits of the typical shounen hero and blows them out of proportion, then does the typical bleach "I have the power, therefore now I am in cool-guy mode". I'm suppose to like him because of the contrast, but I find it quite annoying to have characters switch personalities when it's plot-convenient.

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

That's a pretty fair rating. Although I'll probably bump it up to B+ myself due to visuals and audio. At least ANN didn't completely lose the ball this time like they with Fate/Zero (C for Fate/Zero... wtf)

Looking at it they gave Art and Animation A, so how exactly are you bumping it up for that?

People and their rating logic always confuses me...

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

And everyone understands the concept of what grades mean, as opposed to something even more abstract like "I enjoyed it"

I hate grades. Grades are pretentious. They strive to enforce a subjective number as "factual". At least when you say "I enjoyed it" it's just a honest opinion. It's a lot easier to decipher too, what with grading being so random and personlized that only the one grading actually knows for sure what B means; for example.

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I am not calling for a subforum, since I don't really like them, or complaining in any way. But as a matter of interest, I note that this show now has around a hundred more posts than Horizon. My rough addition gives Horizon about 2160 posts in all its threads, while GC has 2266. Even if a lot of posts here are negative, people sure seem to be interested in this show.

Horizon has a lot more material behind it, while GC might well be just a 1 season thing. It's also not about the post count but how meaty the discussion is. Someone with 10x less posts then me doesn't necesarly contribute 10x less.; for example

But really let's avoid going into this "who's the superior show" nonsense...

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by felix

Looking at it they gave Art and Animation A, so how exactly are you bumping it up for that?

People and their rating logic always confuses me...

He was talking about bumping up his own rating, whatever that might be with whatever criteria, etc.

He also said visuals and audio

I hate grades. Grades are pretentious. They strive to enforce a subjective number as "factual". At least when you say "I enjoyed it" it's just a honest opinion. It's a lot easier to decipher too, what with grading being so random and personlized that only the one grading actually knows for sure what B means; for example.

Well, they do have a use. Someone rating something a B-, and a 2nd show B, means they liked the second show better.

You could argue it means nothing in the philosophical sense, but there has to be some attempt at attempting to create an approximation of something subjective, much like how I'm attempting to string together some words in order to convey an idea.

But then again I don't feel like arguing over how to review, so I should end with an approximation of my own:

ANN sucks at writing reviews.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

He was talking about bumping up his own rating, whatever that might be with whatever criteria, etc.

And the audio . ANN gave it a C+, i would give it a B at the very least. It's also high on the enjoyment factor for me despite having flaws for whatever reason.

But hey, ratings and reviews are serious business!

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by felix

I hate grades. Grades are pretentious. They strive to enforce a subjective number as "factual". At least when you say "I enjoyed it" it's just a honest opinion. It's a lot easier to decipher too, what with grading being so random and personlized that only the one grading actually knows for sure what B means; for example.

I find your post dissatisfying and unamusing. I give it an F, 1/10!

In all seriousness, I think you're missing the point of ratings. Yes it is very personalized, but when you are reading someone else's post who you share opinions with often in entertainment, his or her metrics used will help you gauge how much he/she enjoyed it so that you can see how much you'd probably enjoy it as well.

So he gave series X a 10/10, but series Y a 6/10, and I've typically liked anime he's liked in the past so I'd trust that the 10/10 series is the one I'm more likely to enjoy.

Ratings rather than being some sort of label for the series I think should be interpreted more as quantifiers of people's opinions. When someone rates something higher than they usually do, or lower than they usually do, then that indicates that a series is doing something good or bad in their own view. If you don't share someone else's opinion typically, then their rating almost never means anything to you, and of course it won't act as a sufficient label for anything.

Basically, it's not pretentious to give out a personal rating for something. It however would be pretentious to assume that your opinion would hold for everybody. So while I am finding that Guilty Crown is quite the mediocre series for various reasons I have explained, and while I have given a low rating to the series, I don't expect people to share my views on it, nor should they if they enjoy it without running into the problems I have in trying to enjoy it.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

But hey, ratings and reviews are serious business!

Yea, I think the problem here is focusing too much on the technicalities of the review and not enough on the faulty logic of the review. Instead of trying to find the insta-win button of finding something arbitrary to discredit, we should tear it to pieces, because obviously, his opinion is inferior.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

He was talking about bumping up his own rating, whatever that might be with whatever criteria, etc.

He also said visuals and audio

Ah ic. Yeah the audio isn't bad in this one.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

So he gave series X a 10/10, but series Y a 6/10, and I've typically liked anime he's liked in the past so I'd trust that the 10/10 series is the one I'm more likely to enjoy.

If he says "it's more enjoyable then _____ " or "it's got the best X I've seen in a long time" then you don't need any prior knowledge and also don't need to factor in if he's being generous about it. If it's so easy to say why not just say it. Saying something is 8/10 is basicaly the legitimized way to be a complete fanboy and drop all logic and reasoning. "Well obviously a lot of thought went into comming up with that number!" (yeah right )

Ratings also tend to get aggregated, how does it have any meaning then...

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Ayase confirmed for best character. Which isn't saying much, I know, but still, she was really likable and she has a strong personality

Stong HanaKana is best HanaKana

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by felix

Ah ic. Yeah the audio isn't bad in this one.

If he says "it's more enjoyable then _____ " or "it's got the best X I've seen in a long time" then you don't need any prior knowledge and also don't need to factor in if he's being generous about it.

The issue is that those types of statements are often more provocative and contentious than a simple letter or numerical grade (unless the letter/numerical grade is well outside what the show typically receives).

For example, which of these two comments do you think is more likely to invite disagreement and debate?:

1) "My overall rating for Steins;Gate is 9/10."

2) "I find Steins;Gate to be more enjoyable than Madoka Magica. It's the best anime show I've seen so far this year!"

With the first comment, I heartily agree. With the second comment, I'm more likely to feel slightly disagreeable and want to debate (even though I would put both shows in my Top 5 of the year so far).

(Note: I'm using Steins;Gate and Madoka Magica here simply because they are two of the most well-received anime shows of 2011 here on Anime Suki, so the above comments are easy to imagine)


Now, if the whole point is to be provocative and instigate interesting debate and discussion (as was the case with a blog I wrote a few months back comparing SHAFT to KyoAni ), then comparisons between two popular anime shows, or two popular anime studios, or two popular anime characters, is a great way to achieve that. But if you simply want to give a strong sense of how good (or bad) you found something to be, then a letter/numerical grade is often the best way to achieve that, imo (as long as it's accompanied by an actual review, of course).


Anyway, I surprisingly kind of liked that Guilty Crown review on ANN, and am pretty stunned that Kimlinger of all people seems to be enjoying the show. I guess he's cool with an anime as long as it doesn't feature lolis getting whipped.