Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Demongod86]

Well, frankly, about the whole Stella vs. Lacus thing...here's the catch:

Stella was a beastly pilot. Shinn faced off against her *multiple times*. Shinn *knew* what she was capable of. Had Shinn actually had half a brain to realize that she was a living weapon, he would not have returned a sword to his enemy after disarming him. And *because* of Shinn, the blood of the entire city of Berlin is basically on his hands, like it or not. Had it been some random grunt piloting that destroy, well, just check episode 37. Even the sword impulse could take it down no problem.

Here's the real cutter: they both knew very well who they were dealing with.

Kira knew he was dealing with a sweet girl that was very kind even in the face of those that hated her for generalizing reasons. She offered to shake Fllay's hand and even went to comfort Kira when he was bawling after Fllay's dad got LMAONUBPWNED by Rau. She was a peaceful girl and Kira felt it was wrong for her to be used as a hostage so he returned her.

Shinn knew he was dealing with a living weapon. He knew she was the pilot of not some random EA grunt suit, but the GAIA GUNDAM. And DESPITE THIS, he WANTED TO BELIEVE that she'd be taken to a place nice and warm where she could dance around in her blue dress all day long and not fall off of cliffs. Did it not occur to him that despite her kind personality, that she was a deadly force capable of killing ace pilots (Heine)? That before he found her, she just tore one of his comrades in half, and came close to killing him as well several instances over? No, he perfectly knew all of this and more, and *despite* all of these red flags, acted in a completely illogical way, which makes me wonder what business he has being a red coat in the first place.

The difference here is that Kira knew who he was dealing with and acted in ACCORDANCE with all of the signs of who he was dealing with. In contrast, Shinn knew who he was dealing with and acted AGAINST all of those signs.

I wonder how many survivors of Berlin would like to hear that Shinn was the man responsible for returning the pilot of the machine that killed their loved ones because she was a sweet little injured girl, despite the fact he just shot her down.

It wasn't a matter of them both acting the same exact way, and that Kira got lucky that Lacus didn't turn around, hop in the gundam version of Belldandy and LOLPWN his face, while Shinn got unlucky and Stella retook her role of living-component-of-a-death-machine. For being a coordinator and having military experience, it wasn't that Shinn *should* have known better. He DID know better. But chose to go for the one good quality DESPITE all other red flags. Shinn didn't get unlucky with Stella trashing Berlin. That was a direct and expected consequence of his actions, to which he blinded himself to in order to see Stella as a human being.

There was no luck involved here, guys. Kira went with the choice because the green flags outweighed the red, and Shinn went with his choice despite the red flags outweighing the green.

Oh, and another thing...it was also fitting that Stella died anyway, since unless she was in fighting condition, she quickly deteriorated anyway. Shinn should have realized *that* as well, seeing as how her condition just went down and down and down simply because she wasn't exposed to the EAF drugs that kept her going.

The consequences of each character doing a move that didn't sit well with their superiors was a logical progression, not a matter of bad luck. Frankly, the whole series, Shinn was always shooting for that one chance despite the odds being against him, and any time a decision could be made for him, he went with it. Of course, credit goes to Dully and Rey for wrapping the moron around their finger, but the fact that he didn't jump ship after he supposedly killed Athrun and Meyrin basically sealed the fact that he was going to eat it at some point. It probably may have been better if Athrun was forced to kill Shinn to save Luna (that may have been interesting), but alas, the Knights of Lacus can't kill .

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Shinn was in effect doing all those things in the military context, that is why everything about what Shinn did is essentially wrong. Kira did all those things because it was seen through the civilian context, so perhaps he could be better forgiven for what he did as "he didn't know any better". If Kira was in Shinn's situation, everything would change.

I feel like this is what the Shinn supporters have been arguing - that if Shinn's actions were committed by Kira, everything would be different. Simply because he is Kira, people would not treat him nearly as harshly as they would Shinn. The point that I've been trying to make is that it isn't the characters in name, but in personality. Shinn has been given a horribly arrogant personality, while Kira is much more gentle and thoughtful. When I speak about how each character went about their respective rescues, how they might have, why they would have, and so on, the point is not to say that Kira is superior to Shinn or that Kira is doing something more appropriate than Shinn, but to say that the actions themselves are judged by the viewers.

What Shinn did was not inappropriate because he was in the military. Shinn "rescued" Stellar by returning her to the Earth Alliance - the very people who were essentially abusing her existence by erasing her memories, manipulating her, and forcing her to fight. That alone makes Shinn's actions very questionable to the viewer. As I stated, it was my opinion that Stellar would have had a better end if they'd gambled on being able to reach a ZAFT research facility and stabilizing/restoring her condition there. It's clear that the people arguing that Shinn did "what was right" feel differently, but again, they seem to be in the minority. The next point is that Shinn was returning a living weapon, as Demongod86 has pointed out. It just seems like a bad idea. Finally, Shinn's aggressive manner of getting Stellar out, combined with the above points, made him look very bad. Had the series portrayed Stellar's fate at the hands of ZAFT as very certainly gloomy, then perhaps Shinn's aggressive actions would have been welcomed. However, returning her to the Earth Alliance just doesn't sit well with me either way.

As for Kira, the fact that he was a civilian didn't make a difference, either. Gundam Seed did a very good job of instilling a sense of outrage in the viewer that Lacus was being used as a hostage. They practically built up to it and even had many other characters give direction by being outraged themselves. Thus, when Kira rescued Lacus, we felt that he was definitely on the right side. The fact that he did it in such a gentle manner only raises the level of praise.

Again, what it comes down to is not whether the character acted properly given their situation. It's a combination of how well the series portrayed their actions as just, as well as how the characters themselves acted. Of course, this is just one scenario - as I've mentioned, Shinn repeatedly proved himself to be very arrogant and hot-headed. The fact that his Gundam was called "Impulse" is ironically fitting, because he frequently seemed to act on impulse. Kira, on the other hand, came off as much more gentle, philosophical, and wise. He didn't start out that way, and I personally disliked his character during the segment of Gundam Seed where he was under Frey's manipulation; he acted very similar to Shinn, actually. However, unlike Kira's progression, Shinn was seemingly frozen in time. He barely changed between the beginning and the ending of the series. Whether you want to chalk it up to poor directorship or intentional actions, that's the fact.

Shinn didn't want anything like that to happen, he seriously believed he was fighting for his ideals, and he was fighting for his ideals until the latter half of Destiny made it that way. He joined ZAFT to protect the memory of his sister and protect others from not having the same bad experience he had during the last war and use his own power to protect them - he knew he didn't have much, that is why he knows he has to go all out to protecting them especially seen in the Athrun Saviored ep. Kira essentially joined EA in order to protect his friends from the war simply because he knows that only he has the power to do so. Forget Shinn and Kira for a moment. It simply boils down to a simple point - they both wanted to protect their loved ones and people from experiencing the harsh realities of war, or some other damn thing. That is why they are similar in such aspects - that is maybe the reason why Athrun wanted them to meet each other.

I don't believe this is the case. We never really find out the reason why Shinn joined ZAFT. I assumed, as you just did, that he had joined so as to prevent a situation like his family suffered through from occurring again. That doesn't make much sense though, as Shinn would have joined ZAFT during times of peace. His actions during the series also do not reflect on this. He is the most bloodthirsty character in the series. What surprised me was that, despite all of his flashbacks and remorse over losing his own sister, he doesn't seem all that bothered when he believed that he had killed Luna's sister. He cries for a scene, sure, but other than that, nothing. It's like there's no connection whatsoever. All of his flashbacks are purely about his family or his own depression. I think that it would have been wonderful for his development if we saw a flashback about his sister, transforming into something where he kills her (horrified), and then it turns into Meyrin (Luna's sister). At least that would show that he felt that there was some form of connection - that he realized that he'd committed an act against someone else that was the worst thing that had ever happened to him. Perhaps then he'd be questioning himself. Kira followed that sort of progression. However, Shinn shows little to no introspection. By the end of the series, he's a little unsure about the ideals that he's fighting for, but not by much.

But no, Shinn was not fighting to prevent anyone, including loved ones, from experiencing the harsh realities of war. He "took away" his close friend -> lover's sister (Meyrin) and the person that she really admired (Athrun), and showed very little caring over it. He gave no consideration to the fact that he was probably creating orphans and widows every time he went out onto the battlefield. Beyond destroying all of his designated enemies and keeping himself alive (the former taking precedence over the latter, as shown in the battle against Freedom), he doesn't really seem to care about anything. This makes him seem very limited and very dislikable compared to Kira.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Hmm, based on how our President was so eager for fighting alongside Bush in the Iraq war makes me wonder INDEED... and I guess you should've been here when that was such a big issue in the Philippines. We do get the same extremist attacks every now and then, and hell we do "believe" what our President says, especially when she decided to send the medical mission or something to Iraq when its' liberation from Hussein began. She was all gung-ho about it.

Why are you taking a politician's word at face value? The fact that the Philippines wasn't particularly committed to Iraq is obvious given the tiny number of troops they deployed.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

But Shinn before he lost his family...you could say that they do exhibit the same personality because they were essentially nice people who had just seen the effects of war and had to deal with it in his own way. Shinn lost an entire family right before his very eyes, and do you expect people who experience that to become enlightened about war right away? It takes time for them to heal and get on with their life, and some turn out even worse.

How a character ended up the way he did, or how realistic he is has almost nothing to do with how likeable he is.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Kira and discipline? I guess you have forgotten how he didn't want to pilot Strike and was acting all distrustful about it. It took Fllay and his other friends to persuade him to pilot Strike. Of course, he was a civilian at that time, and it is understandable. And yes, that discipline also covers how he managed to help Lacus escape. Talking about discipline in the military sense would not earn him Brownie points for that. I mean, he should've at least got hints that he was no civilian anymore, drafted into the EA as he was already, and that there is no such thing as civilian reactions in that context.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at - Kira's attitude while following orders was still far better than Shinn's ever was.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Then the infamous Kira twisting Ssigh's arm incident; talk about military discipline, it also won't earn Kira Brownie points. Kira acted on his raw emotions there. How could you even say Kira was disciplined through and through?

You don't seem to understand the difference between acting in an official capacity and acting in a personal capacity.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

But no, Shinn was not fighting to prevent anyone, including loved ones, from experiencing the harsh realities of war. He "took away" his close friend -> lover's sister (Meyrin) and the person that she really admired (Athrun), and showed very little caring over it. He gave no consideration to the fact that he was probably creating orphans and widows every time he went out onto the battlefield. Beyond destroying all of his designated enemies and keeping himself alive (the former taking precedence over the latter, as shown in the battle against Freedom), he doesn't really seem to care about anything. This makes him seem very limited and very dislikable compared to Kira.

I think that the bigger problem here is that, even despite experiencing all this stuff, Shinn still never made the effort to examine his own actions, their consequences, and how well they conform to what he really wanted. I know people like this in real life, and I don't really care for their attitude either.

[winter45]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

.... The fact that the Philippines wasn't particularly committed to Iraq is obvious given the tiny number of troops they deployed.

Not all countries have the same military budget as United states and England

Originally Posted by 4Tran

How a character ended up the way he did, or how realistic he is has almost nothing to do with how likeable he is.

Very True. No wonder why there is very noticable Anti-Kira supporters out there.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at - Kira's attitude while following orders was still far better than Shinn's ever was.

Military dosnt care about your attitude in following orders. They only care about your ability to carry them out. As a soldier you have a right to dislike an order. But you dont have a right to DISOBEY Legal orders.
So the sayin goes *You dont have to like it, You just have to do it*

I honestly dont remember the last time kira actually following orders. All i remember is that kira did his own things that fits in quite well with the main cast in getting their objectives completed. The only time i remember kira was given an order is when he disobeyed it. The scene when cagalli as the leader of ORB is getting married and she asked kira to put her down which he refused. Obviously his emotional state kicked in which alot of kira fans do tend to ignore his disobedience from this incident.

(Btw there is no need to reply of all the examples of shinn disobeying orders, there has been a few already.)

Originally Posted by Ledgem

But no, Shinn was not fighting to prevent anyone, including loved ones, from experiencing the harsh realities of war. He "took away" his close friend -> lover's sister (Meyrin) and the person that she really admired (Athrun), and showed very little caring over it. He gave no consideration to the fact that he was probably creating orphans and widows every time he went out onto the battlefield.

Seems you have limited knowledge on duty of a soldier. I may shed some light here.

Soldiers are not there to make friends with the enemy. Their there to fight and kill. Thats their job unless been ordered otherwise. War is cruel, People die. Its sad but its a fact. Boys, young and old men who are soldiers can die, but they all swore an oath to serve their countries. Knowing the risks that is involved. Husbands who is sent to war also knows he may not return to his wife. Parents could be killed in accidents, crossfires and random bombings, as a result orphans are produced. In War $hit happens its unfortunate but it happens. As the sayin goes *WAR IS HELL*

Your being unfair and biased towards shinn who is performing his duties as a soldier is expected too. I see no problems with this aspect of Shinn.

(Yes i do agree shinn returning steller back is a no no in a military point of view)

Originally Posted by Ledgem

But no, Shinn was not fighting to prevent anyone, including loved ones, from experiencing the harsh realities of war. He "took away" his close friend -> lover's sister (Meyrin) and the person that she really admired (Athrun)...

Im sorry Ledgem the moment he took the Gouf it became stolen property. By most military laws stealing military equipment and defecting/deserting is punsihable by death. Yes i know athrun is getting shot at but im looking at black and white here and removing the grey factor. He avoided the authorities and stoled military equipment in that order. Before Athrun stoled and deserted, its not certain what Durandal is going to do with athrun but some could easily say his going to kill him. The order to arrest at this point is not very clear if its a legal order or illegal. But its up to the viewers at this point to make that call. Meryin assisting in athruns escape is treason. Plain and simple. She doesnt even knows Athrun motives at this point and she freely and willingly helping him. RL thats an instant military trial here.

Now shinn is ordered to shoot down the Stolen Gouf unit. At this point the order is *LEGAL* Reason is that the unit is stolen with deserters. Most military laws will permit of shooting down deserters. So once again shinn is doing the Legal thing. Now if there is a illegal order from Durandal to shinn then its Durandal who will take responsibility. Shinn is following protocol here.
So i dont see a problem with the action of bringing down athrun and meryin.

The only thing i can complain about shinns action here is his hesitation to shoot down the Gouf unit. Hesitating to follow orders may lead to charges and/or disciplinary actions.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by winter45

Not all countries have the same military budget as United states and England

Which is all good and well, but when you've got a country that committed about 50 of its nearly 300,000 troops, it's obviously not considered a high priority. You'd also have more of a case if the Philippines had sent more troops than almighty countries like Albania, Mongolia, and the Dominican Republic.

Originally Posted by winter45

Military dosnt care about your attitude in following orders.

That's outright wrong. A soldier's attitude is an extremely important component of maintaining morale and unit cohesion.

Originally Posted by winter45

The only time i remember kira was given an order is when he disobeyed it. The scene when cagalli as the leader of ORB is getting married and she asked kira to put her down which he refused. Obviously his emotional state kicked in which alot of kira fans do tend to ignore his disobedience from this incident.

Is that the best you can come up with? In that scene, Kira wasn't acting in an official capacity at all - it was just a brother trying to do what he thought was best for his big sister. Moreover, Cagalli even agreed that he did the right thing once she had time to think about it, so why the moral outrage?

Originally Posted by winter45

Your being unfair and biased towards shinn who is performing his duties as a soldier is expected too. I see no problems with this aspect of Shinn.

You're mistaking the thrust Ledgem's argument:

1. Shinn was truly fighting to "protect the victims of war".
2. At the same time, he never gave any thought about how his actions also contributed to creating yet more victims.

The contradiction between 1 and 2 means that either he's horribly thoughtless, or that he's a big hypocrite, or both. Or that he never really followed 1 at all.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You're mistaking the thrust Ledgem's argument:

1. Shinn was truly fighting to "protect the victims of war".
2. At the same time, he never gave any thought about how his actions also contributed to creating yet more victims.

The contradiction between 1 and 2 means that either he's horribly thoughtless, or that he's a big hypocrite, or both. Or that he never really followed 1 at all.

4Tran nailed it. I'd also ask you to keep in mind that what I'm really focusing on is why Shinn was a bad character, in terms of creation. Many people who support Shinn understandably do not understand why so many people dislike him. I'm trying to point out that there are reasons, and they're a bit more than just "Shinn isn't Kira."

Originally Posted by winter45

Your being unfair and biased towards shinn who is performing his duties as a soldier is expected too. I see no problems with this aspect of Shinn.

(Yes i do agree shinn returning steller back is a no no in a military point of view)

I understand the duties of a soldier, but Gundam SEED Destiny wasn't really about glorifying the military - if anything, it attempted to do the opposite, portraying the military as a sort of corrupt corporate entity. The viewers aren't instilled with a sense of obedience to the military, but a sense of justice. When Kira and the Archangel went against the Earth Alliance in Gundam SEED, I don't think anybody was upset that they were going against orders. We all saw it as justified, and standing up for what's right. Athrun and Kira do this.

Even though you say that Shinn is a good soldier, Shinn actually does this, too. He breaks the chain of command to do what he feels is right. Where he loses out to Kira and Athrun is that whenever he breaks the chain of command, he seemingly does it on a whim and doesn't think much of it. Athrun doesn't screw around multiple times in ZAFT - he exits ZAFT near the end of Gundam SEED, and he repeats that action again under a new ZAFT in GSEED Destiny. Otherwise, Athrun is a near-perfect soldier. I believe that the only criticism that was put against him earlier in this thread was that he hesitates when personal emotions (Kira) are involved. Shinn, on the other hand, completely disregards orders from superiors and is largely unpredictable.

You mention that Shinn's return of Stellar is a big no-no in a very brief sentence, but I'd ask you to give a lot more weight to it. We've been discussing it already, but the act of returning Stellar was not even outright just - it's arguable about whether it was the right thing to do or not. The fact that it wasn't clearly the right thing to do makes the act weigh more heavily on Shinn's performance as a soldier. I'm discussing two aspects of Shinn's character, now: how we view Shinn in terms of morality (doing what is right vs. doing what is wrong, or put another way, doing something for the greater good vs. doing something for himself), and in terms of how he is as a character. The morality is questionable, and as 4Tran pointed out my main point, he seems very thoughtless with regard to his actions. It makes for a very dislikable character.

Im sorry Ledgem the moment he took the Gouf it became stolen property. By most military laws stealing military equipment and defecting/deserting is punsihable by death. Yes i know athrun is getting shot at but im looking at black and white here and removing the grey factor.

That's fair enough. If this were purely a military show and the viewer were instilled with a sense of military obedience, clearly Athrun would be in the wrong, as would Meyrin. The thing is, Gundam SEED already gives the viewer a sense that Kira and Athrun are the defenders of justice and what is right. As if it wasn't clear enough, their Gundams are called Freedom and Justice. Around the time of Athrun's escape, the series is already portraying Dullindal as a force of evil. To the viewers, the fact that Athrun is stealing military equipment and such doesn't matter - Athrun is doing what's right. End of story.

That makes Shinn a villain. Sure, Shinn is following military protocol and doing what you consider a good soldier to be doing, but to the viewer ZAFT is currently under evil influence. Shinn, in following orders, must either be evil or thoughtless himself. Shinn doesn't come off as evil, but as I've attempted to establish already, he doesn't have a whole lot of thought going on about the situation. For not jumping on the justice bandwagon Shinn receives a negative mark from viewers, or at least, the viewers who aren't in on the whole military obedience stint. For not even thinking about the situation much and coming to his own conclusions, yet still performing major actions with vigor, Shinn receives another negative mark - although I don't believe the term was ever used in this anime, "dog of the military" is frequently thrown around as a major insult in other series. It'd be fitting for Shinn.

Now shinn is ordered to shoot down the Stolen Gouf unit. At this point the order is *LEGAL* Reason is that the unit is stolen with deserters. Most military laws will permit of shooting down deserters. So once again shinn is doing the Legal thing. Now if there is a illegal order from Durandal to shinn then its Durandal who will take responsibility. Shinn is following protocol here.
So i dont see a problem with the action of bringing down athrun and meryin.

If something is legal, does that make it right and wrong? There are issues in this world that people debate this very thing over. For example, consider copyright laws - it's illegal to download music. We can argue for or against it, but the fact is that currently, it's illegal, and so as not to go too far off-topic, we won't go there. But now consider this: music industry executives want to make it illegal for you to even copy a song off of a CD that you bought. That's right, if you want to have that same song on your iPod, you'd better buy it again or else it's illegal. Suppose this became a law - would you follow it? Is it right that we should have to pay multiple times for a song that we already, by current standards, own?

The point I'm trying to make is that not all laws or orders are justified. I feel like 4Tran mentioned it somewhere, but there are rules in the American military which state that a soldier is allowed to disobey a "bad" order (I can't remember the word, but it's basically an unjusified order). For example, if a commander ordered his troops to kill a number of innocents, the soldiers would be free to disobey the order without threat of punishment, because the order was unjust.

So Shinn is following orders, and Dullindal would legally be the one to take responsibility for issuing the order. Legally, you're right. I do believe that the rest of us here aren't lawyers, though. We don't care that Dullindal would be legally responsible - the series has already led us to conclude that he's a "bad guy." No, now the blame falls on Shinn for not realizing that he's committing "bad guy" actions. Double faults on him because he does seem to hesitate, but does not have the moral strength of character to follow through with what he may truly believe is right - he's just following orders. To you, that's a good soldier. To me (and possibly many others), it's a sign of weakness, inability to think for oneself, inability to stand up for what's right. I think that many people find that very unappealing, and it shows with Shinn's lack of popularity.

The only thing i can complain about shinns action here is his hesitation to shoot down the Gouf unit. Hesitating to follow orders may lead to charges and/or disciplinary actions.

It was also one of the few times that we saw Shinn really contemplating what was right - not what was legal (although he disregarded "legalities" plenty of times before). Unfortunately, as I mentioned above, his character was played out to be rather weak, as he was unable to bring himself to work against orders.

[D-KLAC]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

If you ask me, I like the Philippine dubbing better. It just doesn't help that CN dubbers make me think of Beyblade CN in all the anime they do dub....*o*

Spoiler for space for wall of text!:

@ 4Tran

Hmm, based on how our President was so eager for fighting alongside Bush in the Iraq war makes me wonder INDEED... and I guess you should've been here when that was such a big issue in the Philippines. We do get the same extremist attacks every now and then, and hell we do "believe" what our President says, especially when she decided to send the medical mission or something to Iraq when its' liberation from Hussein began. She was all gung-ho about it. And some went when she retracted her pro war on Iraq stance/decision after that incident...if she can't make good with her promise she should've just left when the entire world was in uproar about that Iraq decision... I think we were one of the countries who stood behind Bush on the war in Iraq when even the UN is asking him not to go ahead with the plan. So I guess she was more or less determined to see the end of that Iraq tyranny and sent her support through the medical mission.

I wasn't even saying that's the reason why people would want to get trapped in the middle of a hostage taking crisis in the first place. Where did you get that idea? I was merely saying that if they do get trapped by such hostage taking crises (I believe we're in the middle of one again, this time in Nigeria...), people would then expect the Philippines to fold again to what the hostage taker demands. It has already done so before; the Philippines can't back out now because of what they did because if they didn't do anything for this particular person, they would be accused as having double standards or what have you. Of course, in something like this, it's the humane aspect that the country should be showing, and to that effect, saving the hostage is first priority above everything else. But then again you can't save every single person who goes through such a crisis, and to that effect, it could seem heartless for the people who happen to be relatives of that guy who was kidnapped. Casualties of war on ideals or what have you. They didn't ask to get kidnapped; they are there because they have to so that their families back home would have a better life, and then shit happens. It's always the innocent people who have to put up with this. And it's hard to explain to them or make them understand that the world really isn't such a nice place after all, because face it, it wasn't our own friends or relatives who were trapped in that faraway country and in effect these people get crazier every single passing day because they don't even know if they will see them again alive. And don't get me started on the "now you see them, now you don't" routine here that has also earned an uproar on the part of all journalists in the world.

Anyway, saying Shinn wasn't Kira at some point...well, of course they aren't. But Shinn before he lost his family...you could say that they do exhibit the same personality because they were essentially nice people who had just seen the effects of war and had to deal with it in his own way. Shinn lost an entire family right before his very eyes, and do you expect people who experience that to become enlightened about war right away? It takes time for them to heal and get on with their life, and some turn out even worse. Shinn was close to his parents and is especially close to Mayu...as an older brother he felt that he failed Mayu, he failed to protect Mayu...that is how older brothers think, anyway. I have a younger brother, and I feel terrible when he becomes sad because in some way I feel I am responsible for my younger brother's sadness. I am pretty sure you would feel that way too toward your younger siblings. So Shinn promised himself to get on with the war and try protecting innocent people somehow because he also felt responsible for them in a way, as he now sees those people part of Mayu's memory. Kira did all those things to an effect the same way as Shinn, but he managed to deal with it his own way or so. Kira and discipline? I guess you have forgotten how he didn't want to pilot Strike and was acting all distrustful about it. It took Fllay and his other friends to persuade him to pilot Strike. Of course, he was a civilian at that time, and it is understandable. And yes, that discipline also covers how he managed to help Lacus escape. Talking about discipline in the military sense would not earn him Brownie points for that. I mean, he should've at least got hints that he was no civilian anymore, drafted into the EA as he was already, and that there is no such thing as civilian reactions in that context. Then the infamous Kira twisting Ssigh's arm incident; talk about military discipline, it also won't earn Kira Brownie points. Kira acted on his raw emotions there. How could you even say Kira was disciplined through and through? Shinn had a loving family whom he cares about, and I guess all people who came from loving families wouldn't produce deviants for some obscure reason; Shinn acting like an ass before he got drafted into ZAFT has no basis at all. He acted that way after losing his family and enlisting in ZAFT. Kira was acting like Kira until he was forced to "grow" at the latter half of the series. But then again, he still exhibited his civilian tendencies when he heard Fllay's voice. So there. Shinn was/could've been a Kira until that single incident.

well the english GSD is the same one In GS cause they both dubbed by the ocean group

& also today is oct 5 that means happy 5th aniversity GS

[Eidolon Sniper]

Spoiler for another wall of text:

Originally Posted by Ledgem

I feel like this is what the Shinn supporters have been arguing - that if Shinn's actions were committed by Kira, everything would be different. Simply because he is Kira, people would not treat him nearly as harshly as they would Shinn. The point that I've been trying to make is that it isn't the characters in name, but in personality. Shinn has been given a horribly arrogant personality, while Kira is much more gentle and thoughtful. When I speak about how each character went about their respective rescues, how they might have, why they would have, and so on, the point is not to say that Kira is superior to Shinn or that Kira is doing something more appropriate than Shinn, but to say that the actions themselves are judged by the viewers.

What made you think Shinn had an awful, arrogant personality before the war? Maybe in the context of how Destiny is going, but not beforehand. Besides, underneath that ass exterior lies the still vulnerable Shinn as is seen some times throughout Destiny. Shinn isn't awful, or arrogant as what people seem he is, because they have Kira to compare it with. >.<;; Arrogant Shinn will decidedly make life hell for all people who come into contact with him, and he would not think twice in decimating people and push them even further down the emo lane or whatever. Like he could verbally abuse Athrun after the Savioured incident, or even leave Stellar to die, or even go after Athrun and Meyrin without that laughable excuse for "mind control" Dullindal and Rey attempted on him.

What Shinn did was not inappropriate because he was in the military. Shinn "rescued" Stellar by returning her to the Earth Alliance - the very people who were essentially abusing her existence by erasing her memories, manipulating her, and forcing her to fight. That alone makes Shinn's actions very questionable to the viewer. As I stated, it was my opinion that Stellar would have had a better end if they'd gambled on being able to reach a ZAFT research facility and stabilizing/restoring her condition there. It's clear that the people arguing that Shinn did "what was right" feel differently, but again, they seem to be in the minority. The next point is that Shinn was returning a living weapon, as Demongod86 has pointed out. It just seems like a bad idea. Finally, Shinn's aggressive manner of getting Stellar out, combined with the above points, made him look very bad. Had the series portrayed Stellar's fate at the hands of ZAFT as very certainly gloomy, then perhaps Shinn's aggressive actions would have been welcomed. However, returning her to the Earth Alliance just doesn't sit well with me either way.

Umm, you're essentially contradicting everything 4Tran said in here.

People who return captives to their home bases (I remember Katsu "returning" the pink haired girl in Zeta) in the military context violates a lot of military context rules. And it was given that Stellar would not be able to survive even in a ZAFT facility, considering that her treatment was created by EA facilities and have her conditioned to those specific treatments alone would give that kind of reasoning moot. Simply put, you do not return somebody as "dangerous" as Stellar is, because she was used in experiments, and could be used to turn on them again, something Shinn felt was wrong but he had no other choice because he felt that Stellar still had her own right to live, and rather believed naively that the EA wouldn't do anything to her again. So yes, it is wrong, because of what transpired as it happened during Shinn's stint in the military.

As for Kira, the fact that he was a civilian didn't make a difference, either. Gundam Seed did a very good job of instilling a sense of outrage in the viewer that Lacus was being used as a hostage. They practically built up to it and even had many other characters give direction by being outraged themselves. Thus, when Kira rescued Lacus, we felt that he was definitely on the right side. The fact that he did it in such a gentle manner only raises the level of praise.

Something like that would never happen in real life, or maybe it could, but not without grave retributions on part of the military base you are serving under. Like would you give something precious as military secrets away because you felt your country should not be dealing with anything like it? Or because you just felt that it was wrong holding people against their will? Yes, that is how we should all think, and people getting held against their own wills are simply enough to warrant outrage on our behalf. But doing it in the context that you are already committed to something, like you joined the military, is not simple anymore because you just thought it was wrong and you have to do it.

Again, what it comes down to is not whether the character acted properly given their situation. It's a combination of how well the series portrayed their actions as just, as well as how the characters themselves acted. Of course, this is just one scenario - as I've mentioned, Shinn repeatedly proved himself to be very arrogant and hot-headed. The fact that his Gundam was called "Impulse" is ironically fitting, because he frequently seemed to act on impulse. Kira, on the other hand, came off as much more gentle, philosophical, and wise. He didn't start out that way, and I personally disliked his character during the segment of Gundam Seed where he was under Frey's manipulation; he acted very similar to Shinn, actually. However, unlike Kira's progression, Shinn was seemingly frozen in time. He barely changed between the beginning and the ending of the series. Whether you want to chalk it up to poor directorship or intentional actions, that's the fact.

Shinn only proved himself to be an ass in regards to dealing with authority, but never towards his comrades whom he felt he had to protect like Luna and Shinn and his other friends. There was no instance that he actually disobeyed direct orders to go after people harassing the Minerva. He did those things within the orders of Talia. The only time he acted on impulse was when he decided to return Stellar to the EA. As for change... it probably didn't seem that way because Shinn was actually fighting for what he believed in in his own way. And of course, his maturity was shown in a different manner: like how he managed to bring Athrun back to his real self, as with Lunamaria, or how he felt that he was responsible for Stellar's well being and knew that he had to be punished for it but there was no other way to do that except take her away from the Minerva. As seen in this context, what maturity Shinn was capable of was shown in vague hints, never blatant. And yes, his character was frozen in place after ep 34, because his VA had something to do with it. Along with his best friend, Cagalli's VA.

I don't believe this is the case. We never really find out the reason why Shinn joined ZAFT. I assumed, as you just did, that he had joined so as to prevent a situation like his family suffered through from occurring again. That doesn't make much sense though, as Shinn would have joined ZAFT during times of peace. His actions during the series also do not reflect on this. He is the most bloodthirsty character in the series. What surprised me was that, despite all of his flashbacks and remorse over losing his own sister, he doesn't seem all that bothered when he believed that he had killed Luna's sister. He cries for a scene, sure, but other than that, nothing. It's like there's no connection whatsoever. All of his flashbacks are purely about his family or his own depression. I think that it would have been wonderful for his development if we saw a flashback about his sister, transforming into something where he kills her (horrified), and then it turns into Meyrin (Luna's sister). At least that would show that he felt that there was some form of connection - that he realized that he'd committed an act against someone else that was the worst thing that had ever happened to him. Perhaps then he'd be questioning himself. Kira followed that sort of progression. However, Shinn shows little to no introspection. By the end of the series, he's a little unsure about the ideals that he's fighting for, but not by much.

Shinn was powerless about what has happened, and it could be clearly seen in the agony he's been in throughout the entire series...not that because those flashbacks make him cool or anything. Why would he always carry around his sister's cellphone if it wasn't the only thing that gave him the strength to continue on with what he chose to do? Todaka gave him a choice to live peacefully in the PLANTs, and it was probably Shinn's choice to enlist in ZAFT because it would probably be the most logical thing he could think of in order to be able to repay for his "powerlessness" at losing his entire family. Joining ZAFT out of pure revenge could be clearly seen if he was actually deceiving himself into believing that it was the case, and could also be seen if he didn't spout that "nonsense" at the beginning of Destiny: why people can't seem to see the fact that there are people who would be involved in the war, innocent people, and yet they are still there making war as if they didn't care about that fact at all. I mean, do away with that speech and just pwn Gundam jacked Gundams already, Mr. Asuka. That "ZOMG I killed Meyrin and Athrun but Dully said they were traitors so I guess that's fine" bit shown after his "descent to darkness" only proves that bad writing has to make Shinn a villain and so have a lot of fans get on his case for being such an emotionless 1 dimensional ass. And frankly, Lunamaria's handling of that situation infuriated me even more than that scene. Anyway, you couldn't just say that Shinn is the most bloodthirsty character in a Gundam series because he didn't go after grunts unless Talia told him too, or felt that the grunts were already putting all of their lives in danger...something which is necessary in order to survive a war. And Kira's killing off the BuCUE pilots, or even random grunts before his acquisition of the Freedom Gundam make him "bloodthirsty" as well? Remember, Shinn was also doing all of those actions because of the imperative NEED for protecting Minerva...

But no, Shinn was not fighting to prevent anyone, including loved ones, from experiencing the harsh realities of war. He "took away" his close friend -> lover's sister (Meyrin) and the person that she really admired (Athrun), and showed very little caring over it. He gave no consideration to the fact that he was probably creating orphans and widows every time he went out onto the battlefield. Beyond destroying all of his designated enemies and keeping himself alive (the former taking precedence over the latter, as shown in the battle against Freedom), he doesn't really seem to care about anything. This makes him seem very limited and very dislikable compared to Kira.

Umm, I guess you missed the part wherein he was so about Dully's halfhearted appeal to Shinn that they were a bunch of "traitors"...or even his doubts while inside the Messiah...

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Why are you taking a politician's word at face value? The fact that the Philippines wasn't particularly committed to Iraq is obvious given the tiny number of troops they deployed.

Well, sorry for not providing enough troops. As winter45 put it, we nearly don't have enough military units to dispatch, and at that, we also have our own extremist woes to take care of. Would you rather let your entire nation deploy the full might of its military, without leaving a small group or anything to take care of things back home and be at themercy of anyone who should wish to exploit this situation for their own good? Besides, I for one, didn't really take that seriously. I am against the deployment of military/medical units to Iraq.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

How a character ended up the way he did, or how realistic he is has almost nothing to do with how likeable he is.

==>

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at - Kira's attitude while following orders was still far better than Shinn's ever was.

For some strange reason this sort of contradicts your entire view on the Kira and Shinn thing.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You're mistaking the thrust Ledgem's argument:

1. Shinn was truly fighting to "protect the victims of war".
2. At the same time, he never gave any thought about how his actions also contributed to creating yet more victims.

The contradiction between 1 and 2 means that either he's horribly thoughtless, or that he's a big hypocrite, or both. Or that he never really followed 1 at all.

And so this leaves Kira's methods simply right in light of all Shinn's wrongs? I really don't see how "stopping" a war as well as "disabling" MS is any different from the supposed madness and evil Shinn is capable of.

Anyway, this has gone completely off-topic, as it does not in any way provide useful information to the Gundam SEED trilogy this thread was supposed to be talking about. In any case, if Gundam 00 did not go "just as planned" in its run, there may very well be an attempt on the 3rd CE series in the future, or the movie which would probably bring closure to the CE universe. I am one of the Gundam fans who actually believe that despite of CE shortcomings, it still deserves a "good" closure to all the many controversies and loopholes they created. And on with other Gundam related stuff in the near future, for that.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

The point I'm trying to make is that not all laws or orders are justified. I feel like 4Tran mentioned it somewhere, but there are rules in the American military which state that a soldier is allowed to disobey a "bad" order (I can't remember the word, but it's basically an unjusified order). For example, if a commander ordered his troops to kill a number of innocents, the soldiers would be free to disobey the order without threat of punishment, because the order was unjust.

These would be "illegal orders". They ideas governing them have been around a long time, but Nuremberg really brought them into the public limelight. Basically, a soldier cannot use "just following orders" as an excuse for committing a war crime, or by inaction, allow one to take place. Different militaries have different ways for a soldier put in that situation; normally, it's to report such cases to his superiors.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Arrogant Shinn will decidedly make life hell for all people who come into contact with him, and he would not think twice in decimating people and push them even further down the emo lane or whatever. Like he could verbally abuse Athrun after the Savioured incident, or even leave Stellar to die, or even go after Athrun and Meyrin without that laughable excuse for "mind control" Dullindal and Rey attempted on him.

This is a non-argument. Saying that "Shinn could have done worse things" in no way excuses his behavior.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

For some strange reason this sort of contradicts your entire view on the Kira and Shinn thing.

What contradiction?

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

And so this leaves Kira's methods simply right in light of all Shinn's wrongs? I really don't see how "stopping" a war as well as "disabling" MS is any different from the supposed madness and evil Shinn is capable of.

You're still missing the gist of the argument. It has nothing to do with Kira whatsoever. It just points out Shinn's lack of introspection.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

What made you think Shinn had an awful, arrogant personality before the war?

Mm.. I didn't read Ledgem stating that Shinn had an awful personality. Just arrogant.

Umm, you're essentially contradicting everything 4Tran said in here.

Umm.. I don't have time to analyze whether they're contradicting or not... but what matters if they are contradicting? Mm, and I thought it was Demongod that Ledgem agreed with =/

People who return captives to their home bases (I remember Katsu "returning" the pink haired girl in Zeta) in the military context violates a lot of military context rules. And it was given that Stellar would not be able to survive even in a ZAFT facility, considering that her treatment was created by EA facilities and have her conditioned to those specific treatments alone would give that kind of reasoning moot. Simply put, you do not return somebody as "dangerous" as Stellar is, because she was used in experiments, and could be used to turn on them again, something Shinn felt was wrong but he had no other choice because he felt that Stellar still had her own right to live, and rather believed naively that the EA wouldn't do anything to her again. So yes, it is wrong, because of what transpired as it happened during Shinn's stint in the military.

Yes! Complicating enough to state that Shinn is thoughtless

Shinn only proved himself to be an ass in regards to dealing with authority, but never towards his comrades whom he felt he had to protect like Luna and Shinn and his other friends. There was no instance that he actually disobeyed direct orders to go after people harassing the Minerva. He did those things within the orders of Talia. The only time he acted on impulse was when he decided to return Stellar to the EA. As for change... it probably didn't seem that way because Shinn was actually fighting for what he believed in in his own way. And of course, his maturity was shown in a different manner: like how he managed to bring Athrun back to his real self, as with Lunamaria, or how he felt that he was responsible for Stellar's well being and knew that he had to be punished for it but there was no other way to do that except take her away from the Minerva. As seen in this context, what maturity Shinn was capable of was shown in vague hints, never blatant. And yes, his character was frozen in place after ep 34, because his VA had something to do with it. Along with his best friend, Cagalli's VA.

Ledgem didn't say that Shinn is an ass.
But regarding ass, now that you talk about it... He is.. because well, he just "felt" that he had to protect his friends. He didn't actually uh.. what's that word... "mean" it, because I see him hurting ZAFT infantry just for Stellar, and then even wanting to hurt Rey if Rey didn't clarify that he was on his side. Finally, towards the end he even tried to hurt Lunamaria >.~

..and now. Please don't say that Shinn was out of his mind when he wanted to attack Lunamaria. I don't really wanna go watching SE4 again, to confirm that I am right that he only went out of his mind when he flashbacked about Stellar and Mayu AFTER he saw Lunamaria protecting Athrun.

Shinn was powerless about what has happened, and it could be clearly seen in the agony he's been in throughout the entire series...not that because those flashbacks make him cool or anything. Why would he always carry around his sister's cellphone if it wasn't the only thing that gave him the strength to continue on with what he chose to do?

Sister complex!
Oh... wait. Nevermind.

And so this leaves Kira's methods simply right in light of all Shinn's wrongs?

From a fan's perspective, yes. From a viewer's perspective (yeah, got that from Ledgem ), yes too. As for reasons, read what Ledgem stated. It's very nicely put. But if you don't understand it, I don't know how to simplify it for you. However, if it's ignorance, then I can't help it, can I?

I really don't see how "stopping" a war as well as "disabling" MS is any different from the supposed madness and evil Shinn is capable of.

Oh.. your "stopping" = "killing", isn't it?
Mm, yeah. It's a big contrast, because Shinn spams in killing, and Kira spams in uhh.. disabling and not killing. Shinn isn't evil. He's just.. mmm, put it in a nice tone, blinded. But I prefer to describe him as thoughtless.


..Brainless.

Mm.. and sorry Ledgem if I meddled a little.
My fingers were.... feeling a little itchy.

[yangxu]

Shinn's just a kid with family issues (or more like siscon, you never see him thinking about his family as a whole, but ONLY his precious little sister). He projects his personal misfortune and anger on anyone who belongs to Orb. His actions are purely based on madness and revenge with no logic whatsoever, the part where he tries to kill Lunamaria who attempted to stop him from attacking Athrun pretty much says it all.

I suppose Shinn hasn't come out from puberty yet and is still trying to cope with that rebellious stage most 14 year old experienced.

[winter45]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Which is all good and well, but when you've got a country that committed about 50 of its nearly 300,000 troops, it's obviously not considered a high priority. You'd also have more of a case if the Philippines had sent more troops than almighty countries like Albania, Mongolia, and the Dominican Republic. .

4Tran my statement isnt about which countries sent the most soldiers. I implied Philipines doesnt have the financial budget to send soldiers for a long term commitment as USA and England are capable of.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That's outright wrong. A soldier's attitude is an extremely important component of maintaining morale and unit cohesion.

I totally agree with you. But my argument isnt about the required attitude of a soldier to have in a military. My argument is about your personal attitude that you may have with the legal orders that have been assigned to you.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Is that the best you can come up with? In that scene, Kira wasn't acting in an official capacity at all - it was just a brother trying to do what he thought was best for his big sister. Moreover, Cagalli even agreed that he did the right thing once she had time to think about it, so why the moral outrage?

Siblings or not, officially capacity or not, Kira is part of ORBS forces And Cagalli is a leading politician. Kira taking cagalli from a political wedding is most societies will be unacceptible no matter how you look at it. Kira has clearly stepped over his limits of what he can do as a brother, and as a militant he clearly disobeyed higher ranking authority figure.

Cagalli may stated he done the right thing but he didnt follow protocol. Instead he done his *does what he wants, when it suites him.* As a result of this Cagalli leaving her post has brought ORB into a political problem. She had neglected responsibility as a Leader, and as a result ORB as a nation has suffered in her absence.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You're mistaking the thrust Ledgem's argument:

1. Shinn was truly fighting to "protect the victims of war".
2. At the same time, he never gave any thought about how his actions also contributed to creating yet more victims.

The contradiction between 1 and 2 means that either he's horribly thoughtless, or that he's a big hypocrite, or both. Or that he never really followed 1 at all.

I understood what Legem said.
But im bringing up the aspect that not all viewers such as myself took shinns words literally. I know im a small minority, But my understanding of Shinns goals to bring *peace* for the world is by using Force.

Ill explain why.

The world will not always accept other nation ideals, and thus is rejected. Even though the ideals may have good intentions but may lead to force and violence for it to become instituted. So in this case Shinn will have to fight the obstacles in place. Destroying their opposition military and then destroying their government, then a long process of rebuilding the nation. The first generation and second generation may have a resentment of their conquerors but in time it may or may not have their desired result originaly planned.

But in my perspective view of shinn, that this is the path he will have to take for the destiny project to be successful. So he may have to fight and cause destruction to prevent wars in the future. But as a result, future generations will be *protected from the victems of war*

But if you do take his words literally then yes i do agree he does sound contradictive and a hypocrite.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

I understand the duties of a soldier, but Gundam SEED Destiny wasn't really about glorifying the military - if anything, it attempted to do the opposite, portraying the military as a sort of corrupt corporate entity. The viewers aren't instilled with a sense of obedience to the military, but a sense of justice. When Kira and the Archangel went against the Earth Alliance in Gundam SEED, I don't think anybody was upset that they were going against orders. We all saw it as justified, and standing up for what's right. Athrun and Kira do this.

Dont know know if you understand me correctly, but i didnt mention anything about glorifying the military. Yes all military organisations have their corrupted aspects so its nothing out of the norm.

Not all viewers saw the instillment of right and justice either. I personally thought that Clyne faction are a bunch of terrorist and Traitors. But that is the flip side of the coin. Myself and a few others would also like to see them punished for their unwarranted actions.

Gundam seed/destiny to me is all about 4 rebellion teenagers who screams out World peace and beats any government who opposes them.
(this is just my biased opinion)

But im not going to argue whats right from wrong. We just have a different perspective view of the main cast.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Even though you say that Shinn is a good soldier, Shinn actually does this, too. He breaks the chain of command to do what he feels is right. Where he loses out to Kira and Athrun is that whenever he breaks the chain of command, he seemingly does it on a whim and doesn't think much of it. Athrun doesn't screw around multiple times in ZAFT - he exits ZAFT near the end of Gundam SEED, and he repeats that action again under a new ZAFT in GSEED Destiny. Otherwise, Athrun is a near-perfect soldier. I believe that the only criticism that was put against him earlier in this thread was that he hesitates when personal emotions (Kira) are involved. Shinn, on the other hand, completely disregards orders from superiors and is largely unpredictable.

I never mentioned that shinn is a good soldier. A few times ive mentioned he has done a few No no's. I cant remember totally but i beleive he only disobeyed Athruns orders. But he never disobyed orders from the top. You could argue he only Obeys when its convienant to him. But who the hell would listen to a leader (Athrun) if he hesitates to kill his designated War targets? (Orb) Ill tell you one thing. If an Officer hesitates to kill a past ally infront of his men expect some insubordination due to lack of respect to command ability.

(By all means im not sayin that this is the right course of action either)

So i can understand Shinn why he has problems with Athrun later on the series.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

We don't care that Dullindal would be legally responsible - the series has already led us to conclude that he's a "bad guy." No, now the blame falls on Shinn for not realizing that he's committing "bad guy" actions. Double faults on him because he does seem to hesitate, but does not have the moral strength of character to follow through with what he may truly believe is right - he's just following orders. To you, that's a good soldier. To me (and possibly many others), it's a sign of weakness, inability to think for oneself, inability to stand up for what's right. I think that many people find that very unappealing, and it shows with Shinn's lack of popularity.

Once again its a perspective view. Honestly i didnt think Dullindal is a bad guy. Even tho fukuda gave him the makeover as a bad guy (dark rooms, emperors chair) But i looked past that and actually sat down and think if his motives where right or wrong.

But its the viewer that makes his/her decision if his good or bad. I just happened to be in a minority.

Mostly in a civilian world a person who doesnt stand up to what is right will be shown as weak. But a militant in a disciplined environment obeying legal and/or moral orders would be considered strong. Its all dertermined on the viewers perception.

Originally Posted by silverdirt

Shinn was powerless about what has happened, and it could be clearly seen in the agony he's been in throughout the entire series...not that because those flashbacks make him cool or anything. Why would he always carry around his sister's cellphone if it wasn't the only thing that gave him the strength to continue on with what he chose to do?

Sister complex!
Oh... wait. Nevermind.

Its obviouse you have never lost your family and all of your possessions. In some war torn parts of the world (middleast is an example) its common to see orphans with no families joining up the military just like Shinn did.

Originally Posted by silverdirt

Oh.. your "stopping" = "killing", isn't it?
Mm, yeah. It's a big contrast, because Shinn spams in killing, and Kira spams in uhh.. disabling and not killing.

I think your missing the bigger picture. Just because kira doesnt kill enemy soldiers/units doesnt mean someone else is going to finish the job off. A damaged MS leg may let artillery units to pick off the slow unit walking trying to escape. A Cut off arm may prevent him from defending himself from incoming missiles. A destroyed head may stop the pilot from knowing 2 enemy units are aproaching him. A blown off jets may prevent a unit from escaping the earths gravitational pull. A clipped wing will crush you on impact when hitting the earths ground from higher alitudes. kira disabled a unit drifitng into deep space may not get rescued and suffocate from lack off oxygen.

Just because kira has a indirect way of fighting people doesnt mean his innocent from indirect death. So you have 2 choices. Die slowly and painfully or die quickly. Pick your poison.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by winter45

Its obviouse you have never lost your family and all of your possessions. In some war torn parts of the world (middleast is an example) its common to see orphans with no families joining up the military just like Shinn did.

=/
Boy oh boy. You sure you replying to me?
I forgot to add:

If you don't realize, I was quoting Snipy back there.
Also, so what if I've never lost my family and all my possessions? So you have? Then I apologize. I really don't know. Yet, what about losing a family in a country where there's no war or whatsoever? Do I join the orphanage, or do I join the military? IIRC, Shinn had a choice to join either.

But I think I'll prefer the orphanage, though I do not wish to be cursed to have lost the whole of my family and to lose all of my possessions.

Yet what does that have anything to do with me saying sister complex?
Oh wait, you quoted two person you misunderstood as one. I got too carried away.

I think your missing the bigger picture. Just because kira doesnt kill enemy soldiers/units doesnt mean someone else is going to finish the job off. A damaged MS leg may let artillery units to pick off the slow unit walking trying to escape. A Cut off arm may prevent him from defending himself from incoming missiles. A destroyed head may stop the pilot from knowing 2 enemy units are aproaching him. A blown off jets may prevent a unit from escaping the earths gravitational pull. A clipped wing will crush you on impact when hitting the earths ground from higher alitudes. kira disabled a unit drifitng into deep space may not get rescued and suffocate from lack off oxygen.

Just because kira has a indirect way of fighting people doesnt mean his innocent from indirect death. So you have 2 choices. Die slowly and painfully or die quickly. Pick your poison.

@ bold statement: Uhh.. something is wrong there. You might wanna edit it a little bit.

Mm.. yeah. Die slowly and painfully or die quickly. But you aren't taking into account that they might actually live even though they were disabled, didn't you? So, I guess having the risk of dying "slowly" and "painfully" is better, because at least they still have the chance to save themselves.

But yet, I have a question though. So yeah, Kira merely disabled them and they might get killed later. But, what does that have anything to do with dying slowly or quickly? Getting hit = die straightaway anyways.. so your point is?

...and uh, do you remember Rey during the final battle?
Or even Legend? Legend was even more badly disabled than those grunts Kira disabled in his full burst attack. Yet Rey still managed to fly his Legend all the way back into Messiah, gunpoint Kira, and then kill Durandal. Mm, so he got lucky?

Ahhh.. yes! People can get lucky when they were only disabled by Kira rather than getting killed straightaway by Shinn.. which is unlucky.

Btw, yes, I do have choices. But not the two you mentioned. I'm not in war. Just a debate.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by winter45

4Tran my statement isnt about which countries sent the most soldiers. I implied Philipines doesnt have the financial budget to send soldiers for a long term commitment as USA and England are capable of.

No matter how you try to phrase it, it's obvious that the Philippines never gave much priority to the Iraq mission.

Originally Posted by winter45

I totally agree with you. But my argument isnt about the required attitude of a soldier to have in a military. My argument is about your personal attitude that you may have with the legal orders that have been assigned to you.

Incorrect. You wrote "Military dosnt care about your attitude in following orders". And that's not true in the slightest. Following orders and displaying a good attitude are both important.

Originally Posted by winter45

Siblings or not, officially capacity or not, Kira is part of ORBS forces And Cagalli is a leading politician. Kira taking cagalli from a political wedding is most societies will be unacceptible no matter how you look at it. Kira has clearly stepped over his limits of what he can do as a brother, and as a militant he clearly disobeyed higher ranking authority figure.

You're really reaching here. This incident has absolutely nothing to do with military discipline. Besides, Kira wasn't part of the Orb military at the time.

Originally Posted by winter45

But in my perspective view of shinn, that this is the path he will have to take for the destiny project to be successful. So he may have to fight and cause destruction to prevent wars in the future. But as a result, future generations will be *protected from the victems of war*

Nonsense. Shinn doesn't think about war in those terms at all.

Originally Posted by winter45

I think your missing the bigger picture. Just because kira doesnt kill enemy soldiers/units doesnt mean someone else is going to finish the job off. A damaged MS leg may let artillery units to pick off the slow unit walking trying to escape. A Cut off arm may prevent him from defending himself from incoming missiles. A destroyed head may stop the pilot from knowing 2 enemy units are aproaching him. A blown off jets may prevent a unit from escaping the earths gravitational pull. A clipped wing will crush you on impact when hitting the earths ground from higher alitudes. kira disabled a unit drifitng into deep space may not get rescued and suffocate from lack off oxygen.

What the heck kind of argument is that supposed to be? And how is it supposed to reflect badly on the actor?
"Just because the judge gave the convict a lenient sentence doesn't mean that he won't get killed in prison."
"Just because the surgeon performed a heart transplant doesn't meant that the patient won't die of cancer."

[Kazamachi Shogen]

About the triology...
If they frickin make it an all out orgy I'd go see it. Comeon Kira, show me your frickin aim bot 1337 skillz by cumshotting/fisheying Lux Kagari Maryu Luna Fray and ASSram all at once! Hell I'd add in Nicol since he's such a baby

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Kazamachi Shogen

About the triology...
If they frickin make it an all out orgy I'd go see it. Comeon Kira, show me your frickin aim bot 1337 skillz by cumshotting/fisheying Lux Kagari Maryu Luna Fray and ASSram all at once! Hell I'd add in Nicol since he's such a baby

I think that'll be up to Fukuda..
Uhh... question! Why are you talking to a fictional character?

and adding Nicol in just to let Kira disable him would be bizarre..
I don't think Fukuda would do that since after the airing of Destiny, I don't think he's gonna be stupid enough to go piss Nicol's fans off.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Silverdirt

Mm.. and sorry Ledgem if I meddled a little.

Not at all, it's always nice to have people supporting your side

Originally Posted by winter45

Dont know know if you understand me correctly, but i didnt mention anything about glorifying the military. Yes all military organisations have their corrupted aspects so its nothing out of the norm.

Not all viewers saw the instillment of right and justice either. I personally thought that Clyne faction are a bunch of terrorist and Traitors. But that is the flip side of the coin. Myself and a few others would also like to see them punished for their unwarranted actions.

My statement about "glorifying the military" wasn't meant to be literal. I understood you to be saying that you valued the characters for their abilities to strictly follow military protocol - in your eyes, Kira and Athrun broke military code more often than did Shinn, and partially for that reason you preferred Shinn to either of them. The point I was trying to make was that your view would be in the minority precisely because Gunda SEED and GSeed Destiny don't attempt to instill those values in the viewers.

I don't know how many of us who watch this series came into it with views of military correctness, similar to those that you hold. You're the first person to mention it, though, so I'd assume that not many have. What the series seems to try to show us, instead, is that the military is bad. In Gundam SEED we saw that the Earth Alliance generals were all essentially corrupt and wanted to commit genocide; by the time that ZAFT goes under the control of Patrick Zala, even the ZAFT military complex seems to desire the same thing. The military, in general, is presented in a very, very bad light. Viewers are led to see that both militaries are on the wrong side of justice, as Kira and company present a view of a future of peace brought about by understanding rather than annihilation of the opposing side. Those of us (probably the majority) who followed what we were fed would thus support any characters who stood up for that future vision and sense of justice. For the series, this means not giving the military a second thought once the military proves itself to be committing wrongs.

I'm surprised you felt that the Clyne faction were terrorists. I thought that they were doing what was right, and that ZAFT under Patrick Zala was essentially the path to a dictatorship. This is more or less what the series seems to want us to see, as well. I'd guess that our differences of opinion partially have to do with the respective histories and brainwashing that we've been through.

Gundam seed/destiny to me is all about 4 rebellion teenagers who screams out World peace and beats any government who opposes them.
(this is just my biased opinion)

As I mentioned, this is a unique view that I've never heard before, but it explains your take on the series. To me, and seemingly the majority, the characters are not "rebellious teenagers" but brave people who realized that what was occurring was wrong, and had the strength to stand up and try to do something about. It wasn't about overthrowing governments, but stopping people in power whose goals were excessively aggressive in order to stop a vicious cycle of hatred and warfare.

I never mentioned that shinn is a good soldier. A few times ive mentioned he has done a few No no's. I cant remember totally but i beleive he only disobeyed Athruns orders. But he never disobyed orders from the top. You could argue he only Obeys when its convienant to him. But who the hell would listen to a leader (Athrun) if he hesitates to kill his designated War targets? (Orb) Ill tell you one thing. If an Officer hesitates to kill a past ally infront of his men expect some insubordination due to lack of respect to command ability.

(By all means im not sayin that this is the right course of action either)

If you're selectively obeying orders, you're a terrible soldier because you're untrustworthy and can't be relied on. If an officer hesitates to kill, whether it's a past ally or not, I don't believe that's a good grounds for insubordination. You waver with your last statement that's in parentheses, so I won't chase this issue further. If you really think about the implications of what you've said, I'm sure that you'd also realize that it isn't right on most levels and should be counted against Shinn, rather than Athrun (whom you seem to be scapegoating).

Once again its a perspective view. Honestly i didnt think Dullindal is a bad guy. Even tho fukuda gave him the makeover as a bad guy (dark rooms, emperors chair) But i looked past that and actually sat down and think if his motives where right or wrong.

But its the viewer that makes his/her decision if his good or bad. I just happened to be in a minority.

It is up to the viewer, but the series attempts to give a certain message to the viewers. For much of the series, we were left wondering if Dullindal really was an evil character or not, because he wasn't portrayed as one and his goals were seemingly good. The Destiny Plan is an interesting although not entirely new concept, and had it been presented for what it was, many viewers would be divided over whether it was a good idea or not. However, as you noted, Dullindal received the villain portrayal treatment in order to make it more obvious to the viewers that this was not a good thing - the Destiny Plan was evil, and Kira's group was on the right side. I'd imagine that few viewers would sit down to really think about it beyond the show itself; if they did, we'd probably see a more even split in what people believed. Regardless, the show's message about which side was right and wrong is pretty clear, and I believe you agree with me on that point.

Mostly in a civilian world a person who doesnt stand up to what is right will be shown as weak. But a militant in a disciplined environment obeying legal and/or moral orders would be considered strong. Its all dertermined on the viewers perception.

As I stated above, people did not approach Gundam with this "militant" mindset. You seemingly did, and as I mentioned, you seemed to hold it against Kira and Athrun for what you believed to be conduct that was not fitting for a soldier. Gundam definitely follows what you stated as the civilian world: Kira and Athrun are heroes for defying the systems that are headed in what the show defines as the wrong direction. You're the first person I've heard from who saw it the other way, but what you said explains the difference in viewpoints. It was also the point that I was trying to make, but you managed to do it in much fewer words.

[all-bout-nishino!]

the morale of this anime is that no matter where we come from, no matter what our differences are....raging war, attacking, and killing one another on the basis of disliking or resenting someone is wrong. and our childrens WILL pay for our mistakes and learn from our hatred..i know, everyone knows this already. I also think that they created the story line in light of whats happening in the real world today with our countries at war.

weird thing happened a few months after i finished watching Seed. 2004 or 5 not sure. I heard on a talk show radio (one of the host was mario lopez (slater in saved by the bell, dancing w/ stars). A recent genetics company found a way to manipulate an embryo and parents will be able to choose hair color, eye color, etc. Sounds familiar? They were taking calls about it from the public, and the majority of the calls HATED the idea and brought about religious aspects on the topic and stated the ppl doing it should be punished or something. Sounds Really familiar to Seed, doesn't it?

well, i think they'll do the killing w/out mecha robots, but it goes to show that anime portrays life and we need to really pay attention to the messages the animes are sending.

i really liked SEED, AND GSD, was a lil disappointed in all the flashbacks, but loved the animation and how they portrayed kira as being somewhat of a kobe bryant pilot. He destroys ms with such finness imo.

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by all-bout-nishino!

.

weird thing happened a few months after i finished watching Seed. 2004 or 5 not sure. I heard on a talk show radio (one of the host was mario lopez (slater in saved by the bell, dancing w/ stars). A recent genetics company found a way to manipulate an embryo and parents will be able to choose hair color, eye color, etc. Sounds familiar? They were taking calls about it from the public, and the majority of the calls HATED the idea and brought about religious aspects on the topic and stated the ppl doing it should be punished or something. Sounds Really familiar to Seed, doesn't it?

So people that believe in a big 2000 year old book written about people talking to an imaginary friend cry foul over progress?

That's a pot calling a kettle black at best, and plain funny at worst.\

Frankly, I am certainly up for genetic manipulation. What if I know I have some very crappy genes (which I do) passed onto me by someone in my family that I want my future family to be the furthest thing away from?

I think it'd be a nice thing to modify genetics if it'll help our children.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Spoiler for WALLLLS OF TEXTS:

Originally Posted by 4Tran

This is a non-argument. Saying that "Shinn could have done worse things" in no way excuses his behavior.

Um, did I say anything to that effect...? I was just stating that given the situation Shinn was in, he had similar experiences with Kira, who completely did everything in the "civilian" context that somehow negates the fact that he already is part of the EA at that point even if it is just for the meantime...random civilians can't go around piloting military secrets now, can he... and before anything else, remember that they were given discharge papers as they were about to board the ship bound for Orb. If it were, everybody on board should be given discharge papers, but they were only given to his friends and to himself...

What contradiction?

Your tirade about liking or hating the character does not depend on how he ends up with or something. But still you provided Shinn and Kira comparison right after it by means of Shinn's "inability" to follow orders. Shinn's "inability" to follow orders makes him an unlikeable character, because he's such an ass, and so therefore it makes him unlikeable because that was the way he turned out at the end of Destiny. However, can you give an exact incident in Destiny where Shinn deliberately disobeyed an order? Except for the Stellar incident. Unless you're saying, of course, that Shinn's side comments to his superiors are meant to be that "inability" to follow orders.

You're still missing the gist of the argument. It has nothing to do with Kira whatsoever. It just points out Shinn's lack of introspection.

What are we arguing about here anyway? How Kira and Shinn are different? Their motives are essentially the same (protecting their friends from the war) yet because of some bad writing skills, Shinn got the very short end of the stick. I find them parallels of each other. How, exactly, is Shinn's ideals of trying to save other people from the war different from Kira or the entire Clyne Faction itself? Maybe it's because of the characters who implemented such ways that made each other radically different. And still, this shows how you contradict your characters are not dependent on how they were portrayed tirade. Or I guess I am already contradicting myself. anyway, I see them as parallels, and poor me for seeing them that way and I am such a weirdo.

Originally Posted by silverdirt

Mm.. I didn't read Ledgem stating that Shinn had an awful personality. Just arrogant.

I wasn't adding that to Ledgem's statement. .______. It was MY Addition, arrogant = Ledgem statement. I mean, if Shinn was arrogant like he is right now in Destiny, he could have some awful "I am emo" personality quirks before Destiny happened, because people do not necessarily become that arrogant just because they want to. There is always a reason for that.

Yes! Complicating enough to state that Shinn is thoughtless

Oh wow, when did people suddenly become thoughtless thinking of other people's safety first before their own needs...? It became complicated because Shinn was in the military at that time...

Ledgem didn't say that Shinn is an ass.
But regarding ass, now that you talk about it... He is.. because well, he just "felt" that he had to protect his friends. He didn't actually uh.. what's that word... "mean" it, because I see him hurting ZAFT infantry just for Stellar, and then even wanting to hurt Rey if Rey didn't clarify that he was on his side. Finally, towards the end he even tried to hurt Lunamaria >.~

Yes, thanks to almighty Morosawa.

Anyway, why are you ascribing everything I said to Ledgem's remarks? I am saying Shinn is an ass and Shinn is awful. So there. That Lunamaria bit was a tad bit overboard into making sure he gets on the CE hate list for all eternity. Can you connect how Shinn was at the beginning of Destiny into the way he turned out at its end? Ep 34 Shinn was the beginning of his end.

Seriously though, Shinn didn't try to protect his friends cause he just "felt" like it, Shinn hurt those soldiers intentionally because he knew he had to save Stellar and that really called for drastic measures (they were determined to bring Stellar back to the PLANTs or some random research facility where she is going to be dissected or God knows what in order to find out how she "works"; Shinn was the only one who thought of Stellar as a human being aboard that ship who actually did something that was VERY wrong to save her), and Shinn's WTF Lunamaria moment was just something that the scriptwriter needed to do because really, the story became really fast paced at the end, and if they are going to paint Shinn as the loser that he really is, his "mind rape" by Dully and Rey should now show its true colors...

..and now. Please don't say that Shinn was out of his mind when he wanted to attack Lunamaria. I don't really wanna go watching SE4 again, to confirm that I am right that he only went out of his mind when he flashbacked about Stellar and Mayu AFTER he saw Lunamaria protecting Athrun.

Thanks to Morosawa's magical pen yes that was WHAT actually happened.

From a fan's perspective, yes. From a viewer's perspective (yeah, got that from Ledgem ), yes too. As for reasons, read what Ledgem stated. It's very nicely put. But if you don't understand it, I don't know how to simplify it for you. However, if it's ignorance, then I can't help it, can I?

Mm.. yeah. Die slowly and painfully or die quickly. But you aren't taking into account that they might actually live even though they were disabled, didn't you? So, I guess having the risk of dying "slowly" and "painfully" is better, because at least they still have the chance to save themselves.

Then, pray tell, can you tell me how cutting off the arm of an enemy soldier or anybody actually threatening your life makes it any different from killing that person to stop him from doing that to others? Cutting off a limb, disabling him by severing nerve connections or whatever = maybe right because he was really threatening you and you defended yourself. But how about that person? You forcibly push that person to depend on others for his livelihood. He wouldn't be able to feed his family, or attend to the needs of his children, depending on the maim that he received. It's even worse than death. Because his body parts suddenly lost one or two or three, his entire future is already jeopardized. And how can you explain to children who depend on him, or are also still getting maimed by mines all around the world that? You are not the one who lost a limb. You are not the one who now has to depend on others for your livelihood. There are people who actually saw the light at the end of that hellish tunnel and lived contentedly in spite of what happened, but still, there are people who just stayed in the darkness forever. The point is, both methods are either right or wrong in some aspects, and war certainly is the place for them. But in a war, morality is shot, what other people believe on one side is right to them, as what other people on the opposite side also believe. War simply is stating the obvious: the one who wins the war usually feel that they are the right people in the war, and so their ideals prevail. But of course, you really cannot prevent other people from thinking otherwise, because that is their right.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

No matter how you try to phrase it, it's obvious that the Philippines never gave much priority to the Iraq mission.

>.<;;


We actually tried giving our all, 4Tran, but it simply wasn't enough. We also have our own extremist woes here. And boy oh boy they weren't pleased when our President sent the medical team to Iraq. You could imagine the tension we had during that time. we simply do not have enough troops to deploy for the Iraq war, can't you understand that?

You're really reaching here. This incident has absolutely nothing to do with military discipline. Besides, Kira wasn't part of the Orb military at the time.

You could also say that about Murrue and the others...

Originally Posted by Ledgem

I don't know how many of us who watch this series came into it with views of military correctness, similar to those that you hold. You're the first person to mention it, though, so I'd assume that not many have. What the series seems to try to show us, instead, is that the military is bad. In Gundam SEED we saw that the Earth Alliance generals were all essentially corrupt and wanted to commit genocide; by the time that ZAFT goes under the control of Patrick Zala, even the ZAFT military complex seems to desire the same thing. The military, in general, is presented in a very, very bad light. Viewers are led to see that both militaries are on the wrong side of justice, as Kira and company present a view of a future of peace brought about by understanding rather than annihilation of the opposing side. Those of us (probably the majority) who followed what we were fed would thus support any characters who stood up for that future vision and sense of justice. For the series, this means not giving the military a second thought once the military proves itself to be committing wrongs.

EA was already very bad through and through, and ZAFT just followed a little bit later. Anyway, they were both working on the interests of the country or political entity that they are following, and as military men, they have no resort but to follow them as good officers would. Remember, the EA was essentially composed of Naturals who hated Coordinators, and ZAFT was essentially the reverse, with Coordinators hating Naturals. In this respect, what they are doing aren't wrong to the countries they are currently under.

Clyne Faction was a reverse of these 2: they sought understanding and peace by ending the war, using the same weapons that the war has already brought out to them. Of course, in the viewers' perspectives, it was the right one among the bunch, especially since Lacus Clyne sought to end the dictatorship of Patrick Zala (if that was what it was). Zala believed that he was just staying true to the code of ZAFT, and that trying to understand a race apart who doesn't understand them would mean more hatred and distrust and even more war. That is essentially the same felt by the EA, only, they let their own biases get in the way, making them even more evil. Clyne Faction is essentially a group of people who are traitors to the causes of both ZAFT and EA, even Orb. The causes which they believed in. Also, buying peace with weapons really isn't a solution to the misunderstanding generated because of the very same methods. It is a quickie solution, which could erupt to war any time, because of the distrust that the winning side could have also fostered, maybe in some of their exploits, or whatever. Bringing it down with weapons could only aggravate the situation even more, and so another war ensues. They are just sending the people into a breaking point that could lead to a very devastating war that could not be solved anymore by scaring them to follow the ideals they have won the war with. Falsely fostering peace in the guise of well placed "puppets" in positions of power is a way wherein any evil attempt to break free from the norm could be actually smothered before it could even start - something which political environments in some countries could attest to.

As I stated above, people did not approach Gundam with this "militant" mindset. You seemingly did, and as I mentioned, you seemed to hold it against Kira and Athrun for what you believed to be conduct that was not fitting for a soldier. Gundam definitely follows what you stated as the civilian world: Kira and Athrun are heroes for defying the systems that are headed in what the show defines as the wrong direction. You're the first person I've heard from who saw it the other way, but what you said explains the difference in viewpoints. It was also the point that I was trying to make, but you managed to do it in much fewer words.

I haven't really watched enough Gundam to help me on this, but Gundam always had been about the good and bad sides of the war - with heroes coming from the unlikeliest places, to become the show's superstars and champions of good and justice. People are also accosted with villains who are neither right or wrong or maybe entirely right or entirely wrong given the methods that they employ. Just the same, the heroes of the show are also showed to be both good or evil in situations, and cheering them on for being the heroes that they are. But UC shows anyway make for a balanced show of what is good and right and what is between. The CE just made one side very good, in spite of lots of things which paint it as somehow like the bad guys themselves, and made all the bad people BAD. In this context, there is confusion and it is understandable, especially in comparing them, with the good side being very good still and the bad side just remains very bad. In the 2 shows they were seen, they were still the good side, and the same methods they employed in the last war was still the one they used in the 2nd show, and basically the same for its villains. People aren't expected to be standing for the military realistic view of the Gundam shows, they are there to think about what certain characters did and possibly debate on how things could've been made more understandable, something which few anime could even hope to achieve in the cerebral department. in any case, heroes like Athrun and Kira have to be celebrated for defying the norm that was imposed on them: the difference that they had, etc., and the same could be said of Shinn. But writers should definitely know when to stop photocopying the same methods again. It's what made the CE for people who try to like it, and others.

Originally Posted by silverdirt

and adding Nicol in just to let Kira disable him would be bizarre..
I don't think Fukuda would do that since after the airing of Destiny, I don't think he's gonna be stupid enough to go piss Nicol's fans off.

*coughMWUcough*

Any news related to the CE movie as of yet? Or is that the 3rd series??