Rozen Maiden ~ Ouvertüre ~ Discussion Thread

[npal]

Originally Posted by Nightbat®

Sou treated Gin as a Rozen Maiden, Shinku treated Gin like a retard
like some people treat handicapped as if they're not human, even though they have the same desires as healthy people

Ah, so mopping the floor with a handicapped person just because he states the will to fight and be considered equal is better than choosing not to fight and stating the obvious. And this is respect for less fortunate people?

It's the same as passing a legislation saying that all handicapped people are to be equally treated, so no special parking places, services and the like are to be given for they will feel inferior because of the extra caring and attention. Oh noes, they make ramps, install audio signs on traffic lights, etc etc! They SUPPORT people who can't walk! OMG! THEY PITY THEM! Discrimination I tell you!! Next thing you know, it'll be a war crime NOT to kill handicapped people during war periods...

Are we even serious???

[klinton]

Originally Posted by Nightbat®

Sou treated Gin as a Rozen Maiden, Shinku treated Gin like a retard
like some people treat handicapped as if they're not human, even though they have the same desires as healthy people

No...Souseiseki treated Suigintou like a lamb ready for slaughter. Shinku on the other hand treated her like a little sister who needed to be protected from things that were beyond her ability to deal with (she'd just learned to walk for Christ's sake). You are confusing your feelings for the agressive, powerful Suigintou that we all know and love with the truly pitiful creature Shinku was trying to protect.

Both Shinku and Souseiseki were aware of Suigintou's weakend state at that point (Shinku obviously having a more keen idea of her condition than Souseiseki)...but Shinku chose the path of mercy whereas Souseiseki was looking only for her own interests (a quick and easy victory).

Just because someone is capable of comming in first in the special olympics doesn't mean any person with an ounce of sense would encourage that person to get behind the wheel of a formula one car. It would be cruel to do so.

[SSJiffy]

Originally Posted by npal

Ah, so mopping the floor with a handicapped person just because he states the will to fight and be considered equal is better than choosing not to fight and stating the obvious. And this is respect for less fortunate people?

It's the same as passing a legislation saying that all handicapped people are to be equally treated, so no special parking places, services and the like are to be given for they will feel inferior because of the extra caring and attention. Oh noes, they make ramps, install audio signs on traffic lights, etc etc! They SUPPORT people who can't walk! OMG! THEY PITY THEM! Discrimination I tell you!! Next thing you know, it'll be a war crime NOT to kill handicapped people during war periods...

Are we even serious???

Very nice retort (I agree with you) but lessen the effect of gnawing off one's head .

I too got the impression that Shinku was initially treating Suigintou as mentally-inferior. But as Ouveture progressed my view changed to that of Shinku as a big sister for Suigintou rather than a pompous b****. What Souseiseki did was harsh but an analysis of her character shows her mechanically exacting father's input. She's just following orders, yeh?

However, dicing at what was initially an invalid - since grown to a maiden - ...yeh

[Kageitenshi]

There's this vague line between pity, respect and actually caring about someone. There's a huge line between good intentions and bad intentions. Shinku's pity leads to caring and good intentions with an unfortunate outcome due chain of misunderstandings when people just refuse or ignore listening to reason being blinded by their feelings. Had she had bad intentions either out of pity or respect, seeing as Gin could have either been considered a handicap to be "put out of misery" or a worthy enemy to beat. Then there's perception of others' actions... one person can easily make the mistake of seeing caring for someone they consider to be less fortunate as an action out of pity, based on only their own point of view. Ask either the one caring or the one being cared for and you might find that both appreciate each other and that the "less fortunate" person might actually be quite happy, even more so than many physically "complete" people. Physique is what others can see, what's inside isn't something we can. Seems mostly those who've had to actually suffer the consequences of such, eg. being bullied in school for years just because you're perceived as somewhat weaker due small size and what not, are capable of overcoming judging people by their appearance and demeanor only. Even actions, like I've said can be perceived wholly differently by different people.

As of face expressions, we've got some 42 of them, what's the difference between the pained, sad expression that comes out of pity and out of caring? We can't tell can we. Yes Shinku did have good intentions, yes she's pained by seeing Gin-sama suffer. They just don't care enough to not spill the beans about the "facts" behind Gin-sama as if she wasn't there to hear it. Besides, as I said in one of my previous posts, it clearly seemed as though she was willing to set aside Shinku's disrespect after receiving her RM and so cheerfully showing it. Which BTW wouldn't most probably have ever happened hadn't Gin been "beaten" by Sou. Rozen gave RM to an incomplete doll, he doesn't seem to feel that the physical imperfection is anything as important as giving a new life to Gin, for whom he cares about. Shinku's perception of Father and his "perfect dolls" is what ultimately causes problems even if she doesn't intend to cause any harm. She fails to see things from Gin-sama's POV and thus ends up pissing her up with very little effort by mere words. I can relate to both of these since I've both done similar many a times enough and been the victim all too often.

Souseiseki on the other hand jumped to conclusions without knowing Gin-sama wasn't even carrying a RM. 'So, she's a Rozen Maiden... seems too weak, but all the better since I can take her down with one blow and we'll find out if I do!' Sometimes she's a bit too masculine for my taste really... but at least she can put her feelings aside and see things from other aspects as well when needed, as being the voice of reason in many a situations during the series. But just how many times did at least one of the dolls misunderstand her being unable to do anything about it before being interrupted?

Why should I speak when you refuse to listen, why should I show you the world when you close your eyes when you see something you don't like? You were born with hearing and eyesight, but you're making yourself a handicap by refusing to use them.

Here's a reality check for npal here: Equally treating someone doesn't have to go as far as details. It's quite enough that everyone are equally given a chance to live as they are physically functioning or handicapped, mentally functioning or not. Forgetting the bigger picture when delving into details that no one ever spoke of has obviously made you forget that 5+5 equals ten, just as much as 1+9 does. Bigger picture versus minor details is why we usually start from 10 / 2 equals 5 times 2 when we think of things that could be done to help people equally. Or that's how it should be. Less fortunate people just seem to be satisfied by less... The only extra effort put into making life easier for handicapped people is to actually go there and ask what they need instead of ordinary people only. The architectural differences or painting a wheelchair on a suitable parking lot is nothing compared to that, especially when both parties benefit. Your comment on "Sou treated Gin as a Rozen Maiden, Shinku treated Gin like a retard" goes way out of line and could even be considered extremely offensive. First of all Sou didn't know of Gin's "handicap" she only saw her as a weak opponent, thus treated like a complete and worthy opponent - a Rozen Maiden. Second of all, there's nothing in Nightbat's post that would deserve such an aggressive retort, just a couple facts about human nature.... that some of you doesn't seem to be aware of, thus needs to be written.

If you see something that can be considered a one-sided opinion in what I've written that I haven't specifically mentioned as such, do slap me

[npal]

I'll point out that the "details" are there because someone first thought that these people need help with certain aspects in their life and turning a blind eye on that or mistreating them because of who they are is not the way to go. They are certainly not equal in many things, and those societal details are there to make up for their handicaps. They make all the difference.

Well, Shinku being happy for Gin getting an RM would be a bit out of characters. Shinku is not so warm as to go hugging everyone on sight, no matter her feelings. Also, a point is made during the Shinku-Gin second encounter that Gin misunderstood Shinku. If Shinku was so stuck up and didn't care AND considered Gin totally inferior, she could have taken the usual superior approach "You are inferior, you can't have an RM, you're junk, out of my sight". If Shinku wanted to humiliate Gin, she had all the chances in the world to do so. Yet, not even once did she treat her as a bother or someone not worth her time. And someone so arrogant wouldn't need to try and explain himself to Gin when it was obvious that she's getting it wrong. After all, if Shinku thought nothing of her, who cares what she understands, she's inferior, right? Poor choice of words are the only blame that can be placed on Shinku, yet people attribute ill intentions in all of Shinku's actions, when there were none.

People blame Shinku for the "Junk" part and place no blame on Gin for attacking first and destroying Shinku's broach.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by klinton

No...Souseiseki treated Suigintou like a lamb ready for slaughter. Shinku on the other hand treated her like a little sister who needed to be protected from things that were beyond her ability to deal with (she'd just learned to walk for Christ's sake). You are confusing your feelings for the agressive, powerful Suigintou that we all know and love with the truly pitiful creature Shinku was trying to protect.

Both Shinku and Souseiseki were aware of Suigintou's weakend state at that point (Shinku obviously having a more keen idea of her condition than Souseiseki)...but Shinku chose the path of mercy whereas Souseiseki was looking only for her own interests (a quick and easy victory).

Just because someone is capable of comming in first in the special olympics doesn't mean any person with an ounce of sense would encourage that person to get behind the wheel of a formula one car. It would be cruel to do so.

but you know theres a missing detail on boku's behalf...she didnt know that gin didnt have a rosa mystica before slicing her in two ~ even tho she acted like that she just thought in her mind "all fair in love and war" and went for the killl ~ as she didnt consider that gin was incomplete in the first place ~ i guess this fact lessens her being hated but still her personality back in those days was the same as shinku "i want to win the alice game!" ~

well clearly from what i can see that there is 2 clear contridicting opinions of shinku and gin ~

1) is that shinku is actually a backstabber that left gin out in the cold ~
and ~

2) is that shinku was protecting gin out of love right till the very last straw

while i cannot disagree with both of the points as they are both somewat valid to a degree i still think that imo shinku did look down at gin at the very start...but she changed to help her walk...what confuses me that if she really did care for gin then why didnt she even attmpt to help her while she was being swallowed up in the N field? i mean she just stood there with that look on her face ~ common at least shead a tear or two T_T

another thing is that she right to the end didnt acknowlodge gin as a rozen maiden...sure RM dolls are ment to be perfection which gin clearly isnt...but well doesnt the rosa mystica speak the truth? i mean wouldnt she think that if her father thought that gin was worthy to have a chance at being alice that she could at least accept this and beat gin to the ground fair and square? at that time she still had "pitty" in her head...who honestly can say that she wasnt looking down on gin at that moment? sure weve seen the love but we also see her other side...i guess its just her 2 sided personality...or actually her ability to care in a bad way...tough love?

this all boils down to how a person interprets shinku's actions tbh...we all have different thinking paths and its just about opinions already formed from the first scenes...and my first opinion which i still stick but isnt a very forgiving one >.<

[npal]

Eh... dropping down that N-field means you're dead right? Shinku knows the rules, once a proclaimed RM doll is killed in combat, it drifts to the N-field. What would be the point of pulling her up? Shinku is not one to run around going emo. She's composed most of the time. Her way of showing grief was there, people just choose not to see it.

About Gin getting an RM. Sui is downright against the Alice Game. Shinku on the other hand is a special case. She complies with the rules when there's no other choice, or bends them if it can help people she wants to protect. There is an obvious disbelief and questioning of the existence of the Alice Game and Father's will, whom she remembers as a loving figure, else she'd follow either Sui's lead of never fighting in it or Sou's lead of not questioning Father's will. Shinku takes the middle path. She fights when forced, she doesn't care one bit when she's not challenged. So she is already questioning the whole "perfect dolls killing each other to attain Alice status" and someone (probably Father, who else can give out an RM, right?) gives an RM to what both Shinku and Sou acknowledge as a crippled doll, to enter a deadly battle tournament. Apparently Sou doesn't have a problem with that, she's fair game, so who cares. Shinku however seeks to understand what Father is up to. He's pitting herself and the other complete dolls against someone who was left on the bench unfinished. What is he trying to pull? How will an incomplete doll hope to defeat even Hina or Kanaria, whom Shinku considers easy opponents, buteven they are complete RM? Using the above argument, Shinku's disbelief at Gin getting an RM fits and doesn't null all the nice things she did for Gin, nor does it make her a two-faced pompous villain. And that notion is pretty consistent through both seasons. She beats Hina, whom she considers a weak opponent (omg, she looks down on her!), as she states in Ouverture, fair and square, and not only she allows her to live, she is willing to go against the Alice Game rules and be her medium so that she can survive. Where, in both RM seasons, is the arrogant bastard that looked down on Gin?

She obviously thinks she's greater than everyone, as a noble thinks he's greater than all people of lower status, but that didn't stop her for caring for everyone under her protection to the best of her ability. I still think the worst thing one can say about Shinku is poor choice of words. Shinku did some things in both RM seasons that I found cold and arrogant, but Gin's condition is not one of them.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by npal

...Shinku however seeks to understand what Father is up to. He's pitting herself and the other complete dolls against someone who was left on the bench unfinished. What is he trying to pull? How will an incomplete doll hope to defeat even Hina or Kanaria, whom Shinku considers easy opponents, but even they are complete RM?...

thats is just what im stating ~ nowhere was the above shown in the ova but yet still it is interpretated as such ~ i wont say that its totally untrue but there wasnt any evidence of that shown in shinku's train of thought ~ mostly this is what you have interpreted from shinku's actions...much like how i interpret that gin is being look down on by shinku all the time...again i dont feel that she is totally looking down on her but still a part of me thinks that she is doing it out of 50% love and 50% pitty ~

but is pitty really such a bad thing i wonder? under normal circumstances it just means that she is acting out of pitty which isnt really hurtful at all...i mean whe you pitty someone normally you will try to comfort and help the person ~ its just that shinku takes it to another level...she is trying to spoon feed gin everything...like even planning out her future for her (ie gin! you just stay with sarah and have a happy life) ~ heres the problem...shinku didnt consider gin's feelings...she only thought that she was doing what was best for her without really thinking is that what she really wants? and would she really accept that fate?

shinku acting as the villian? no i wouldnt say so...noone is truely a villian here as they all have their reasons ~ but its just that to me shinku's reason for upsetting gin is rather weak compared to why gin is upset at her >.<
i admit that most of my thinking is biased (somewat) but i do try to be fair and look at both sides of the argument ~ but its a matter of pride ~ npal you know full well how you would defend for kaede too

oh and the Nfield thing ~ well she didnt pull her out cause she cant...but she could have mourned a bit harder ~ well what i mean is that she should have showed more emotion towards the disappearence of a friend imo

[npal]

Well, I agree, invoking strong feelings in Shinku is hard. I mean, I'd have thought that she'd at least leave more space for Hina's stuff after Hina died (you know, tribute to the dead, show that you miss them or SOMETHING), but I don't recall her doing that, which strikes me as odd, but apparently, Shinku is not one to show feeling, especially considering the Alice Game. Her behavior is pretty consistent in the mourning aspect, both in Gin and Hina, and they were dolls she spent most of her time with. I do consider arrogant and cold how she let Hina only an insignificant space to put her stuff in and how she was bossing Hina around to the point where it becomes unforgivable, even when I know Shinku does feel superior to all dolls (although it's not EVIL per se, it still frustrates me). I can understand calling Shinku cold and arrogant based on THAT and similar bossy actions, but I honestly don't think she had the faintest ill intent regarding Gin.

Well... Shinku COULD show more emotion. She appears too cold for my taste at times, but at least I can be sure that she'll be nice when it really matters, so I can put up with some of her quirks.

And Kaede has nothing to do with it If Asa showed HALF the concern (or pity, I don't care) that Shinku showed Gin, I'd have a totally different opinion about the whole issue.

[Kageitenshi]

You seem to think of Gin as a handicap with special needs that would need to be met? Please do tell me what it is that she would actually need besides the love and care any other person would? Besides, whose posts are you referring to about Shinku - Gin relationship? And uhhh... what's your point?

Anyhow, Gin couldn't have possibly been treated as a handicap by Souseiseki, since all she saw in Gin was weak personality at most. Shinku knew of the missing part and thought of it as a handicap. Even if she knew that Gin wouldn't survive for long without her RM, was all the more reason to have made an attempt at giving her a good life as a doll, nothing wrong with that, given the situation. Gin and Rozen didn't think of it as a handicap that could cause trouble, at least not until Shinku's words of no ill intent because she failed to see from Gin's point of view, then again how could she have without any reference.

I once again stress out the point that even before Gin had fallen to the other N-Field, Shinku and Sou talk about her as if she wasn't there, or as if she was already dead, way to go huh? Even if there's nothing that could be done, they could be at least considerate enough not to.

Spoiler for Totally off topic:

_____________________________________________

Originally Posted by npal

I'll point out that the "details" are there because someone first thought that these people need help with certain aspects in their life and turning a blind eye on that or mistreating them because of who they are is not the way to go. They are certainly not equal in many things, and those societal details are there to make up for their handicaps. They make all the difference.

Didn't in any way state that the details aren't there, but details come out of need, need doesn't come out of details in this case, which is exactly where you started and still are... To be equally treated as such, we don't start by looking at what could be given, but what is already given to normally functioning people that doesn't quite work properly with wheelchairs etc. Both are given the same things yes - equal, but they don't benefit them - not equal there. In other words, ordinary people are given more by default if we just ignore those special needs. There's a market for special services, people get lots of money out of it, so wouldn't it actually be better to make it work? And by stating that some people need help we get tons of architectural designs, gadgets and stuff built for those in need that are actually despite good intentions, totally useless or awkward the least. All because those who could use something "special" aren't even consulted. Besides, is it not so that properly functioning people would get pissed off at nothing being done when handicaps would take two too narrow parking lots so they can get out of the car, or block the stairways etc.

"It's the same as passing a legislation saying that all handicapped people are to be equally treated, so no special parking places, services and the like are to be given for they will feel inferior because of the extra caring and attention."

Just wanted to point out that equal and equal aren't equal. Giving up "special" services that make life easier, so as not to feel inferior because of it hardly equals easy life by default and even feeling of superior because of it. Did you ever ask someone in a wheelchair what they could use to make their life easier or even if some of them actually need anything that is being given already? Ever asked if they actually do feel inferior when given something "special"?

Gin was given something "special", she was happy and thanked Shinku for her help... Aren't you yourself feeling superior by thinking that people with special needs ?should? feel inferior not the least because of their handicap but of all because they're actually given something to help with this?
_____________________________________________

[npal]

According to Shinku, Gin needs to stay out of battle. Shinku gave what could be given, but there was no way she could repair Gin, or she'd have done so. So she chose the best solution. Sarah would love Gin and Gin wouldn't need to fit against better-made, articulate dolls. Shinku, having the mentality of a queen, decides without asking, but decides fairly and with consideration.

We don't know what Rozen thinks. We do know that he finally gave Gin an RM. As to what Rozen considers complete, well, take a look at the other dolls, and then look at Gin waiting in the bench to be made whole. If you ask me, Rozen either 1)rewards Gin for her devotion with an RM (since you made it so far and you want to join the others, here's an RM) or 2) starts an experiment with Gin and Shinku at its center. But there's no way he considers her complete, or at least ONE or two of the other dolls would share similar design patters.

Well, Sou asks, Shinku answers, but as I said, we are aware from the RM seasons that it's not in Shinku's character to go all emo when someone dies. And I will say again, that both Shinku and Sou are aware of the regulations of the Alice Game. Gin chose death in the Alice Game over Shinku's choice of a happy life. She is forced to acknowledge that Gin chose to die in the Alice Game, so she treats her death as any other death in the Alice Game. Her behavior is consistent with what we know about her. Unlike Sui, she wasn't weeping all day when Hina finally died, but it was apparent that she felt the loss. She has the same attitude in Gin's death. Why should she be any different? Sure, I'd prefer her more emotional, but that's Shinku, as long as we can understand how she feels, she doesn't need to be like Sui.

Shinku doesn't look things from other people's point. That's her flaw. Still, even with that flaw, she can actually make valid decisions (sure, living with Sarah wasn't Gin's idea of a happy life, but no one can say that it wasn't a good thought on Shinku's part). Shinku is wise enough to learn from her experience of losing a limb and was the first to apologize to Gin, even if Gin was the one who started the whole deal with the broach. There are certain sequences in season 2 that show that Shinku had her share of guilt for killing Gin in season 1, even if it was Gin again who started the attacks. I still fail to see what makes Shinku such a stuck up inconsiderate person.

Somewhat off-topic:

About the services and gadgets. In a consumer society, it becomes apparent if a product is useful or not, so that point is invalid. If something isn't working for them, they don't use it, they don't buy it.

Ah, but they are not equal. Equality is an illusion. There are strong and there are weak, as it happens in nature. What distinguishes us from the rest of the animal world is justice, the ability to be fair. If nature treated some people unfairly, we help them get as even as possible. If society places people somewhere unfairly, we create systems so they can benefit. There's no equality to begin with. We give help and the right of dignity to people that would have died as prey in nature. Feeling superior or inferior is beside the point. Someone who feels he can outrun a sprinter when he's on a wheelchair is either deluded, arrogant beyond logic or plainly stupid. Someone who thinks he should compete in running with a wheelchair has either too big an ego, wants to see others lose, or has no ties to the reality of the situation. Everyone should know their place, what they can and can not do. Then, it's up to us being just and even the odds one way or another. Should I feel Steven Hawking is inferior to me because he's more or less incapacitated?? He's a grand mind of science but he DOES have handicaps and the machines some people made for him DO help a lot and he can work on the stuff he's great at BECAUSE some people provided them because they thought he needed them, and he DOES. Does that make him inferior?

Gin was too obsessed with being an RM to really listen to Shinku. It's not Gin's fault for being that way, as it was Rozen who left her on the bench. But it certainly isn't Shinku's fault that Gin got her intentions all wrong.

Edit: Should we arm incapacitated people and throw them in the frontline at war because they are obsessed with feeling equal to everyone else? It surely is applicable to Gin's case and Shinku obviously thought along those lines. Gin can't fight, she shouldn't fight, even with a good weapon at her disposal, as all other dolls, she still should not fight. And questioning who and why supplied Gin with such a weapon in her condition is the obvious followup of such a pattern of thought. Shinku underestimated Gin's abilities, but on valid grounds.

[Nightbat®]

Thanks for the defense Kageitenshi, seems I was misunderstood

Originally Posted by npal

I'll point out that the "details" are there because someone first thought that these people need help with certain aspects in their life and turning a blind eye on that or mistreating them because of who they are is not the way to go. They are certainly not equal in many things, and those societal details are there to make up for their handicaps. They make all the difference.

I wasn't talking about details

though most of my comment was about "arrogance" but in the last line I was giving
an example for Gin's POV (maybe I should have elaborated a bit more)

Some treat Handicapped like they're not "normal people"; as if they are children
or "porcelain dolls"
uncapable of living a "normal" life and therefore must be protected from
"the outside world" since it would only hurt them
While there are a number of disabled people that need constant care, there are also
many that lead "normal" lives
This group would probably be offended if someone would treat them as the aformentioned
"porcelain doll" (and even some of those that need constant care may have certain
things they don't need assistance with)


Gin is a "real" Rozen maiden, and proud of it
even Sou treated her as such

In Gin's eyes Shinku treated her as such a "porcelain doll"
While Shinku would strive to become RM's "Alice", she would be withering away in a room
while she wasn't in any way "less" than shinku

-

While we can argue Gin's chance of survival in her state, we also know there are
disabled people that have climbed mountains
there are handicapped athletes that run the x00m faster than me litteraly on one leg
If those people believed they were "porcelain dolls", they never would've achieved
what even many 'healthy' people can't do

[npal]

Originally Posted by Nightbat®

While we can argue Gin's chance of survival in her state, we also know there are
disabled people that have climbed mountains
there are handicapped athletes that run the x00m faster than me litteraly on one leg
If those people believed they were "porcelain dolls", they never would've achieved
what even many 'healthy' people can't do

How much time did it take? How many machines did it take for them to climb? Can those athletes outrun a sprinter without some form of super chair? My point is that no matter how much they want, they are not truly equal, in the same way I'm not equal to Hawking in the brain area. If someone handicapped in an area I excel does beat me there, it's his victory, but I was still valid to say that I don't believe he can do it. And valid to continue to believe that unlike him, most others can't do it. And Shinku did that. And if I was Shinku and someone like Gin challenged me in what I consider my elite field, I'd act the same way as Shinku. Someone who just learned to walk and still stumbles the last time I remember seriously challenges me to fight must be out of his mind. And indeed, fighting opponents you consider weaker is awkward to say the least. Imagine me, having no serious relation to basketball go out all of a sudden and challenge Michael Jordan. And then imagine me being even worse, like having no legs, or maybe missing an arm, etc. What do you suppose he'd think? "You must be joking. You're not even in this". Is he arrogant? Is he wrong to think that way? He has all the reasons to think that there's no point in being my opponent. Should I lash at him because he considers me inferior to his abilities??? Of course not, unless I have mental issues open...

It's one thing to have a chance to do whatever you want and another to know your limits and know that others might think of you in a way that needs disproving, with no ill intentions whatsoever.

[Kageitenshi]

Changing history for future purposes (original posts saved)... hmm, well no one's a more or less invalid than any other person or character, it takes at least another person and their opinions.

[AthenAltena]

There was some mention made that Shinku didn't feel Gin could last forever in that state, so in some ways it reminds me of Air or Kanon using that as a theme. The way I understood it was that Shinku didn't see Gin as possibly being able to have a Roza Mystica and was trying to buy her time by not getting her wrapped up in the Alice Game. Whether she thought Gin was a "real" Rozen Maiden is I think irrelevant, she saw someone who under the rules she had been taught did not have much time, and she wanted to give her the best life possible. Shinku's conversations with Sarah about the Alice game seem to indicate she didn't want that to happen to Gin and even then was beginning to wonder about it..

[npal]

1. I think I answered that.

2. You mean most products that come out do an extensive survey to check what people wants? Some bright person invents something for a reason and puts it to the test. Asking or not asking is kind of irrelevant. Most inventions appear that way. If others find them noteworthy, they give them a chance, otherwise they don't. Most companies or individuals can't afford a wide survey, they might ask a friend or two but that's that. Most of the time, it's in their mind. So I fail to see why you make that point.

3. Well, maybe I didn't get that right, but since we said the same thing apparently, what's the problem? That what is equal for someone isn't considered equal by someone else? But there was no equality to begin with, so, what's the point on talking about what is equal?

4. Well, fairness in a democratic society is derived by the will of the many. I might consider fair to have everything in this world, because I deserve them, but we should draw a line somewhere, or we can't argue about anything, which can't be the case, since there are things most of us accept as being, at one point or the other.

5. True, but the same goes for Gin. If Gin could understand where Shinku stands, and what her thoughts were, she wouldn't have lashed out. That only places the blame on both or on no one, but certainly not just Shinku.

6. Actually, I'm defending Shinku as not being responsible for Gin. As I accept that Gin isn't responsible for feeling inferior and having a good load of mental issues, I expect people to accept that neither is Shinku responsible for Gin's condition and how she interpreted Shinku's intentions. And obviously, I believe I am right at that, or I wouldn't care to argue. If your opinion isn't worth dying for, you shouldn't be defending it anyway

7. Eh??

8. Well, I do consider Gin as handicapped, so it kind of fitted.

9. No, not at all. I'm just stating that people a) should accept their limits like most of us do regarding certain things and b) have no ill intention when they think you can't do it because of some reasons that have a sound basis. What's so offensive in that?

10. Yes, I can understand that. What is the point though? Regarding this, I'm saying that no matter how hard you try, having a serious handicap to begin with is a good sign to seek to do something else instead of stubbornly wanting to excel in THAT particular thing. Isn't that arrogant? Since it's a matter of belief, arguing about that is pointless, so I'll just note 9b). No ill intentions against people with handicaps, maybe I'm misunderstood. Kind of reminds me of Shinku.

11. I lashed out at who?

12. Yes, but I didn't challenge Casparov when I first started to learn chess. It'd be arrogant thinking I have even a remote chance of getting a draw at that level against an obviously superior opponent. And I feel that this isn't my field, so I don't think I'll get at his level even if I try, so I might as well do something I feel I can actually get very good at.

13. Ah, but it was apparent that Shinku didn't want Gin to fight in that occasion. Gin heard of the game, stated that I'm an RM, Shinku couldn't do much about it, and Sou didn't care to ask Shinku for clarifications. "RM, knows Alice Game, good, you're dead".

14. Purely depends on the personalities in question. And I think I answered that point about Gin lashing out or not. As you claim that Shinku would have acted differently if she knew how Gin felt, I claim that if Gin knew beforehand how Shinku felt, she'd have understood her intentions and not feel offended. In the case where both Shinku and Gin don't understand each other, as is apparent, well... sh!t happens And yes, you can do it and think "what did I do" even RIGHT after you've done it. Mostly it takes time to think "maybe I shouldn't have done that".

Edit: And I delayed my sleep too long

[Kageitenshi]

The relevance of such things is indeed questionable if we're to look things from outside the bubble and the actual outcome of it all. It becomes clear that while to Shinku it was quite irrelevant whether or not Gin actually was a Rozen Maiden, she had taken care of her, not wanting her to suffer more. In this context, their true feelings towards each other that motivate them are irrelevant. Even the best of intents are bound to bring about disappointments. It's not like we can actually go ask Shinku why she said and did all she did, but she didn't seem to have have any ill intentions, just an inconsiderate way of saying things.

What of coming to question the Alice Game, certainly anyone who sees an exception to a rule starts questioning the rule, no matter what it may be. In this case it is an incomplete doll that's supposed to be a Rozen Maiden. Fortunately for us Shinku grows up from all the experiences and actually apologizes to Gin-sama, even she's affected by this, though her hate is still too prominent. We have yet to see what becomes of their sistership and as such we can't cast judgement on either any of the dolls. As many a bad beginnings have turned to the best of everyone.

Getting overly worked up about the motives and feelings involved won't get us anywhere but starting a flame war at this rate.

[the.Merines]

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

Getting overly worked up about the motives and feelings involved won't get us anywhere but starting a flame war at this rate.

Agreed. Obviously, Ouverture has polarized our otherwise calm and loving community. We all love moe Gin-chan; we mostly love winged Gin-sama; we all have problems with Shinku and Souseiseki. The past page or so has been long-winded rebuttals to others' opinions. To be honest I stopped reading when someone compared Gin-chan to a handicapped person, and someone else got into a political debate about it.

Everyone simmer down. Respect each other and each others' thoughts. Not too much and more of .

[aeriolewinters]

Personally, I did not think that this would get really serious. To be clear, I did not hate Shinku the person, I hated what she did. I'm just saying "No wonder Gin hated her...". But with that said, I still believe that a person isn't judged by one action alone. n_n

[the.Merines]

Correct. People (and living dolls =p) cannot and must not be judged on one action. Rozen Maiden's characters are all very multi-faceted and layered, which is one of the reasons I love the series. I could say "I hate Jun because he's a loser," but the statement is such a sweeping generalization of his character that it makes no sense, especially when Jun grows as a character so much during seasons 1 and 2.

Just trying to put things in perspective.