2007-05-06, 06:37 | Link #42 | ||
Bored and Lurking ~
|
Quote:
Quote:
Now with Yunno's shapeshifting is perhapes a trait shared by his tribe, but it does appear to use magical energy, since he did use a magical circle to shift back to human form later in season one. I would just think his inital change to ferret at the start of season 1, is maybe forced power saving mode on low battery, like on labtops. Yunno's shapeshifting is a change of body structures while Lieze's was an illusion wasn't it.... btw I hate shapeshifting since it does not obey proper physics Last edited by Darco_emp; 2007-05-06 at 06:47. |
||
2007-05-06, 15:31 | Link #43 | ||
Hiromi
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Girl who Lost her Tears
|
And I blame you, Kha, for creating this monster!
Quote:
I'm thinking in Hunter X Hunter terms now... (For those who have not watched HxH, go here) Transformation (Transmutation): Used to change the properties of nen (raw magic). This is how elemental spells are produced (Fate's Lightning and Signum's Fire). But also, as Keroko says, the raw magic has to be transformed to be used as fuel for spells (even for non-elemental Divine Buster). The AMF 'waves' disrupt the transformed raw magic. - Transformation is required for all mages. - Characters who excel in this category: Hayate, Fate, Signum, Reinforce II - Maybe Erio. Not sure. Emission: Used to discharge the accumulated and transformed magic (Divine Buster, Starlight Breaker, Plasma Smasher, and all those long range spells). - Subaru is bad in this category, as an example, while Nanoha is an expert. - Characters who excel in this category: Nanoha, Teana, Chrono Manipulation: In HxH it is used to control people or non-living materials, but here in Nanoha-verse it would be used to control certain spells (Accel Shooter, Plasma Lancer, Variable Shoot and almost all of Teana's spells). - Apparently Teana is an expert in this category. - Characters who excel: Nanoha, Teana, Chrono Reinforcement (Enhancement): Used to increase efficiency of objects or body. All defensive (Barrier, Field, and Shield types. See Nanoha A's Comics) and healing magics belong to this category, as well as Caro's enchantments, Vita's Hammer attacks (Raketenhammer, Gigantschlag), and Signum's Knight Armour (or Knight Spirit, a Field-type magic defense. See A's episode 2). Since Field is a type of magic defense, AMF is also part of this category. - Characters who excel: Vita, Signum, Shamal, Caro, Yuuno, Arf, Zafira - Not sure about Subaru, but I think she belongs to this category too. Quote:
Materialization (Conjuration): Used to create physical objects out of raw magic (Vita's Schwalbe fliegen). Materialization users in HxH can create items with special abilities imbued into them. For Barrier Jackets, these special abilities would be Barrier, and/or Shield magic defenses. - Characters who excel: None, as the Intelligent and Armed Devices take care of the materialization process. And the last category: Specialization: Anything that doesnt belong to the other categories. Hayate's status effect spells come to mind. - Character who excel: Hayate, Reinforce II, and specially Reinforce I (Ability to use all categories with 100% efficiency, anyone? ) ---- Oh, I love HxH's Nen. And after writing this post, HxH's 'energy system' sure makes sense, even when applied to Nanoha-verse. BTW, I have no clue what categories Subaru and Erio excel in. I would assume Erio eventually would be good with Lightning attacks, but there is not enough info right now. I hope you enjoyed this comparison as much as me. Last edited by Erio; 2007-05-06 at 17:06. |
||
2007-05-06, 15:55 | Link #45 |
Hiromi
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Girl who Lost her Tears
|
Hehe yes. I dont know why I'm doubting. Maybe its because of the Revolver Knuckle. To hit harder it uses some kind of mechanical propulsion system, instead of a spell. Well, maybe it is a spell, as it uses cartridges... Hmm. Ah, I give up. Yes, Subaru is Reinforcement, if only because she doesnt fit anywhere else.
|
2007-05-06, 22:58 | Link #46 | |
Gaou!!
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 97th Non-Administrated World
|
Quote:
I'm really not sure why everyone keeps trying to marry magic with physics.. It's been said before, but if it followed physical laws, it wouldn't be magic. The Lieze twins were using illusion/disguise magic, which was disrupted by Chrono's bind - I recall he said it is a specifc type of bind that causes the trapped target to return to their true form? Or breaks any enchantments they have on them? So if the Lieze twins were using an active or passive spell, it was disrupted. Yuuno however seems to have two seperate forms, both of which can be considered his 'true' forms. I guess switching from one to the other requires almost no magic, or perhaps that only works downwards, from human form to ferret form, since one is a low-magic-cost form. Linker Cores might emit magical energy - any magic they emit inside an AMF is probably disrupted/dissolved as per the usual AMF effect, but the generator itself seems unaffected. So Linker Cores are not in any danger while inside an AMF, they just can't produce any focussed magical output.. I'm not really not comfortable with the idea of nanomachines for the BJ. That just makes me have bad Mai-Otome flashbacks. When the BJs form, the effect looks more like the magically constructed matter effect that someone else described.. pure, patterned magical energy of some sort instantly forms into what appears to be fabric. Nanomachines would have a visibly granular appearance to their formation (as in, say, Cutey Honey ), as trillions of molecular level machines moved into position. Also, the protection of BJs is clearly more than their fabric - characters have exposed faces yet survive full beam and explosion exposure. BJs are not just worn armour, in the physical sense. They probably emit fields of their own. The way the protect from 'crushing' damage is possibly similar to Yuuno's magical mattress from ep4 season1. |
|
2007-05-07, 00:46 | Link #47 |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
|
Way I read Kha's model though, the nanomachines are just there to aid magic-to-matter conversion and help form the material. It's not actually made out of nanomachines.
Mai Otome hardly invented nanomachines. You can't let one crappy anime taint one of the most abused concepts in sci-fi... wait... I guess that should be 'there are so many crappy narrative uses of nanomachines on record that Mai Otome's contribution hardly matters.' Although since I like Eve's nanotech-shapeshifting power from Black Cat I guess I'm pretty guilty myself.
__________________
|
2007-05-07, 01:22 | Link #48 | |
Hiromi
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Girl who Lost her Tears
|
Quote:
This is how I see it: Every living thing has a Linker Core, no matter if you're a mage or not (this was said in A's). The Linker Core is like your heart: If the energy emitted by the LC stops flowing, you will die. It is like your life force. This explains why Nanoha was very weak after Shamal drained most of her LC. If the AMF disrupts the flow of this energy, any living thing inside the Field would start losing stamina, then its consciousness, and eventually it would die. But the fact that you have a Linker Core and have magical aptitudes (like Nanoha before she met Yuuno) does not mean you can cast spells. This is where Intelligent Devices come in: to help mages use that raw magic, or if we use our theory's terms, to help mages transform that raw magic so it would be usable for casting spells. With this in mind, and the fact that Erio's and Caro's health or stamina were not affected while inside the AMF, we came with the theory that the AMF does not disrupt the flow of raw magic (that which is emitted from LCs) but instead disrupts the transformed raw magic used to cast spells. This is why we saw that Strada's enchantment was nullified, but nothing happened to Erio himself. This is why I believe that the AMF is actually a "Anti Magic-spell Field." Also, what I tried to explain with use of Hunter X Hunter terminology is that the AMF is but an enchantment, a Field-type magic defense (as explained in A's to Strikers Comics), not some hax. Caro proved this by using the "Enchanter field invalid" (the word "Enchanter" in the spells name should be enough clue ) enchantment on Erio's weapon to counter the AMF. In other words, the AMF has to have its limits, or it would be completely unstoppable. I hope that makes sense. |
|
2007-05-07, 01:38 | Link #49 | |
*facepalm.jpg*
Author
|
Quote:
|
|
2007-05-07, 01:40 | Link #50 | |
Bored and Lurking ~
|
Quote:
Hmm but if we consider the Linker Core as completly chaotic and random, a good model for this can be white noise again, which is just y(t)=A for -∞<t<∞, where A is constant, the amount if raw power a mage have. Now, since under superposition again in AMF we can get r(t) = A +B*sin(wt-180), where AMF is modeled with B*sin(wt-180). We can see with this model then AMF will not effect the overall power of linker core at all, unlike in an organised spell A*sin(wt-180). ----------------------- @BatAttack, Since in Nanoha they did say Magic is similar to math models used on Earth, I do belive there is proper physics/math model for all magic then. |
|
2007-05-07, 01:46 | Link #51 |
~Night of Gales~
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Yes, mages don't need devices to cast spells, as shown by Yuuno and Lindy.
However, when you consider how a finely-tuned specialized I.D is so much better than regular Storage Devices, which are apparently easier than manual-non device magic, well...one can see why there aren't too many "non-devicers." That's why I think the personal scientific calculator => regular calculator => mental arithmetics argument work best in terms of looking at how Devices help channel the magical energy as a medium.
__________________
|
2007-05-07, 01:55 | Link #52 | ||
Gaou!!
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 97th Non-Administrated World
|
Quote:
Quote:
Hence my comment about the linker core itself being unaffected, only emitted magical energy being defocussed. |
||
2007-05-07, 02:59 | Link #53 | |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
|
Quote:
Devices strengthen magic, they're not needed, but they strengthen. |
|
2007-05-07, 03:06 | Link #54 |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
|
The mathematics behind Midchildan magic are either relatively simple or completely different from what we use. I hate to keep parroting myself, but Nanoha can use simple magic without her device and without understanding calculus.
__________________
|
2007-05-07, 03:34 | Link #55 | |
Illegal Additives
Join Date: Jun 2004
|
Quote:
In ep5, the revolver unit served as a power generator for her ranged attack. Notice, she spins it manually before casting the magic missile instead of using a cartridge. Cartridge use IMO have always been to augment an existing attack, that or as a means to sidestep complex incantation. |
|
2007-05-07, 03:43 | Link #56 | ||
Gaou!!
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 97th Non-Administrated World
|
Quote:
I'm inclined to think Raging Heart is helping her out there.. The 'Intelligent' part of the Device should be good for more than just speaking basic commands... Without Raging Heart, I don't think young Nanoha would have been able to do a lot. Now that she is older she would probably be able to get by.. but then, she is probably overly-reliant on her I.D. - I wonder if years of I.D. use have made her soft? Quote:
That's just my intuitive understanding of it. |
||
2007-05-07, 04:29 | Link #58 | |||
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
|
Quote:
Though Nanoha has been seen practicing magic without RH. Cue first episode of A's Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
2007-05-07, 04:49 | Link #59 |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
|
Haha, yes, except keeping count.
I've seen it as unison device > intelligent device > storage device > no device but manifesting a diagram > pure willpower. With pure willpower apparently the province of pretty much just Yuuno. And the familiars, but I imagine they've got built-in abilities.
__________________
|
2007-05-07, 04:59 | Link #60 | |
~Night of Gales~
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
What's the difference? Yuuno and Lindy both fall under those categories, anyway.
__________________
|
|
|
|