Fate/Zero - Speculation & Theories (for F/SN Game Players)

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by Thess

Last Episode wasn't tackled on until later and only exists outside the PC original name, so we can consider it an AU not particularly linked to Fate, UBW or HF, but another route or chain of events (like Hollow/Ataraxia).

Hmm...

1. Last Episode starts with a recap of Fate route.
2. Star-crossed connotations with Shirou x Saber.
3. Some doesn't like the concept of Last Episode, but it is clearly the "Saber" ending.

Even if one considers it AU... it's pretty clearly an AU built upon the foundation of the 'Fate' route.

Originally Posted by Thess

I don't remember this clearly, but wasn't Archer come from a timeline he wasn't romantically attached to Saber or Rin? (I'm betting Illya route?). Sakura route makes him forsake the path for a greater sense of happiness, so he's the only one 100% safe.

True, Archer probably did not have any romantic attachments. At the very least, not to the extent of Fate, UBW and HF where his connection with one of those girls shaped a large part of how he want to manifest his ideals. ( in Sakura's case, throw it into the gutter. )

But that doesn't necessarily mean that Shirou won't tread on paths that Archer took in his life. They won't end up being the same person, but that doesn't mean their future in life would be extremely different. ( for Fate/UBW ones anyway )

After all, it is pretty clear that Fate and UBW Shirou will definitely live the path of a superhero, and that by itself means a harsh and painful future.

This is even truer for Fate!Shirou, since one can expect him to live an extremely lonely future in his pursuit of the superhero dream.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Thess

Last Episode wasn't tackled on until later and only exists outside the PC original name, so we can consider it an AU not particularly linked to Fate, UBW or HF, but another route or chain of events (like Hollow/Ataraxia).

I'm pretty sure we can consider it linked to Fate at the very least considering we had an entire 10 minute recap of Fate before Last Episode.

[edit]

Ninja'd...

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Hmm...

1. Last Episode starts with a recap of Fate route.
2. Star-crossed connotations with Shirou x Saber.
3. Some doesn't like the concept of Last Episode, but it is clearly the "Saber" ending.

Even if one considers it AU... it's pretty clearly an AU built upon the foundation of the 'Fate' route.

And that's fine, I consider it a Good Ending... like Sunny Day. Ergo, two realities, one with that one and another with Continuation of the Dream.

Originally Posted by Nightengale

True, Archer probably did not have any romantic attachments. At the very least, not to the extent of Fate, UBW and HF where his connection with one of those girls shaped a large part of how he want to manifest his ideals. ( in Sakura's case, throw it into the gutter. )

But that doesn't necessarily mean that Shirou won't tread on paths that Archer took in his life. They won't end up being the same person, but that doesn't mean their future in life would be extremely different. ( for Fate/UBW ones anyway )

After all, it is pretty clear that Fate and UBW Shirou will definitely live the path of a superhero, and that by itself means a harsh and painful future.

This is even truer for Fate!Shirou, since one can expect him to live an extremely lonely future in his pursuit of the superhero dream.

Yup. And there is Ataraxia Shirou who...

Spoiler for HA spoilers?:

hasn't made any romantic choice, but he's like a non entity in personality (Since Angra Mainyu is our Protagonist and the biggest irony is that I found him more self-sacrificing and heroic than Shirou in the end lol. How hilarious he pulled the superhero stuff better than Shirou ever did in any of the FSN routes. Hats off, All Evils of the World-kun).

[giorno]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Fate Shirou would have became Archer. Illya's death post F/SN is one of the key factors in him turning down the road to becoming Archer.

Except Nasu says he doesn't

[chaos_alfa]

In Fate/Zero it seem Kirei doesn't seem to know he experiences joy in the things normal humans don't.

But in HF Kirei says he sees beauty / joy in the things normal humans don't.

The problem is when his wife kills herself in front of him to show he does feel sadness like any normal human. He think to himself he is sad because if she was going to kill herself she should let him do it or something like that.

Doesn't this contradict Zero? Because his wife died before Zero.

[mAc Chaos]

I think in Fate/Zero he's still in denial over it. He hasn't embraced it yet. By HF he's totally okay with it. Or at least accepted it, but still feels guilty perhaps since he seems to understand normal right and wrong. His whole mission in HF seems to be figuring out why God would make something that feels joy only in being evil. He wants to be good, but gave up.

It's hard to tell with Gilgamesh if he takes an interest in Kotomine because he sees a kindred spirit (like in FSN) or if he sees someone who's suffering he can enjoy, like Kariya.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

In Fate/Zero it seem Kirei doesn't seem to know he experiences joy in the things normal humans don't.

But in HF Kirei says he sees beauty / joy in the things normal humans don't.

The problem is when his wife kills herself in front of him to show he does feel sadness like any normal human. He think to himself he is sad because if she was going to kill herself she should let him do it or something like that.

Doesn't this contradict Zero? Because his wife died before Zero.

He's been raised as a Christian and a moral uptight one. If you notice he's conscious that he desires vile things (calling joy "evil"), but is in self-denial about them. The LN makes obvious he has pursued virtue and good things all his life expecting reward and nothing.

It's Gilgamesh who sees through his struggle.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

It's hard to tell with Gilgamesh if he takes an interest in Kotomine because he sees a kindred spirit (like in FSN) or if he sees someone who's suffering he can enjoy, like Kariya.

Probably both, but a little more inclined towards the former option. I mean, if Gilgamesh does succeed in making Kotomine accept and embrace his inherent wicked nature (and we know from F/SN he does), then he'll lose the pleasure that Kotomine's struggle and inner conflict bring him, but clearly he's okay with that and would rather have him join him in his entertainment as a kindred soul. So despite likely deriving pleasure from observing Kotomine's suffering, ultimately Gil intends to help him free himself from it, thus removing his shackles and bettering his life, even if through morally warped means. Which is all pleasantly in concordance with Gil's Chaotic Good alignment.

I must say, this episode was quite the treat for F/SN fans, and Heaven's Feel in particular. I never expected Kotomine had been so much in denial as regards his nature in the past. And Gilgamesh being the one to awaken it is quite the fascinating twist of fate. And how fitting is it that the Holy Grail is so quick to try and get Kotomine back into the game when Kotomine goes on to protect it later on in the next war in HF. I love it. Awesome prequel is awesome.

[Grey]

I'm surprised Kotomine absorbed the moral teachings of the Church so strongly. I would never guess that from F/SN. But it makes a lot of sense when I think about it.

[DragoZERO]

After episode 12 we can put the whole blame on Gilgamesh now, haha.

Originally Posted by giorno

Except Nasu says he doesn't

In the game it's hinted at it, so yeah.

Originally Posted by Grey

I'm surprised Kotomine absorbed the moral teachings of the Church so strongly. I would never guess that from F/SN. But it makes a lot of sense when I think about it.

I think he went to what was most familiar searching for answers. Gil just gave him something that satisfied him more.

[giorno]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

In the game it's hinted at it, so yeah.

uhm, what?

[Thess]

Shirou never becomes Archer in any of the three routes. Because Archer never had a romantic relationship with Saber or Rin (and obviously with Sakura, it's a moot point ).

I suppose you can argue more for his Ataraxia self, but I doubt it.

[Nightengale]

Let's see here...

Archer :

- obviously didn't meet EMIYA/participated in a Grail War with a different Archer.
- sucked even more than any of the 3 route's Shirou when it came to Projection during the HGW.
- just as idealistic as Fate!Shirou.
- failed to 'save' Saber from her stupid wish.
- knew about Avalon being implanted inside his body.
- kept Rin's pendant for the rest of his life.
- has attempted a projection of Excalibur before.
- His HGW ended similarly to Fate!Shirou, that being Illya survived only to die a year later.
- No romance with any of the 3 heroines, but close to Illya.
- Lived the rest of his life pursuing the ideal of a hero, and died without regretting it. ( it came AFTER dying )

So if we're to just make a random assumption based on all this, Archer definitely sounded a little bit like a Fate!Shirou who was weaker ( due to the lack of guidance towards UBW, pure trial-error ), did not romance Saber ( thus failing to save her ), and probably ended his HGW on a less happy note ( since he was weak and unable to do anything ). But despite all that, he did not waver from his ideal. ( weak in strength, but resolute in dedication. )

It's easy to make parallels with Fate!Shirou, since they clearly has the most in common in regards to how they started off their path in life, and the type of path they walk in their future. ( for Fate!Shirou, the path he will walk... since it's fair to say he will definitely walk a superhero's life or die trying )

[giorno]

look you guys, there are no random assumptions, this actually came up in one of the Q&A in one of the various side materials, and Nasu's answer was "there are no chances that any of the 3 FSN routes shirous will become archer"

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

- sucked even more than any of the 3 route's Shirou when it came to Projection during the HGW.

Going to have to object to this one. It's pretty obvious that he was about the same as Fate!Shirou in terms of projection. At the very least, he was good enough to project Avalon out of his body, since he's shocked that Shirou still has it in his during UBW.

Originally Posted by giorno

look you guys, there are no random assumptions, this actually came up in one of the Q&A in one of the various side materials, and Nasu's answer was "there are no chances that any of the 3 FSN routes shirous will become archer"

It's easy to say "Nasu said it", but since the game hints strongly that the Fate route's Shirou could become him you'll have to provide some sort of proof that he said this.

[Kanon]

Fate!Shirou can and will highly likely become Archer, just not the same Archer we know. I like the assumption that Archer is from the fabled Illya route.

Anyway, this is a bit off-topic, isn't it? I don't see how it relates to Fate/Zero. This topic has pretty much been Fate/Stay game discussion thread 2.0 lately.

Originally Posted by Grey

I'm surprised Kotomine absorbed the moral teachings of the Church so strongly. I would never guess that from F/SN. But it makes a lot of sense when I think about it.

I was very surprised as well. I never thought Kotomine used to be such a highly moral man, or at least one that fooled himself into believing he was. He was actually sort of a decent priest back then. He pretty much ended up becoming the incarnation of his definition of evil.

It's fascinating to see how much Gil influenced him. Sure, Kirei was broken from the start, but if not for his meeting with Gilgamesh he might have never embraced evil.

[Haak]

I can't remember fully but I do recall scenes in which Kotomine still seemed to believe in christian morals (or at least believe that christian morals existed) even in the FSN game so whilst I was surprised to see Kotomine so religiously moral, I also felt it kinda made sense too.

[giorno]

Originally Posted by GDB

It's easy to say "Nasu said it", but since the game hints strongly that the Fate route's Shirou could become him you'll have to provide some sort of proof that he said this.

the game doesn't hint anything and i'm too lazy to search for the specific Q&A....

ah whatever...

i rememberd it wrong, here it is

Q: During the last part of Sakura’s route, Shirou was saved by the tiny bit of residual mana in Tohsaka Rin’s pendant. Also, it seems like Rin knew about the difference in residual mana between the thing he got back from Archer and the thing he was holding, so could Sakura’s route be the one in which Shirou becomes a Heroic Spirit after all? Or could you tell us the route(s) in which Shirou doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit?
A: I’ll just say now that he doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit in any of the routes, but the possibility is still present in all of them as well. Basically, the probability of it happening is almost zero.

it was almost zero rather than zero

[GDB]

Originally Posted by giorno

the game doesn't hint anything and i'm too lazy to search for the specific Q&A....

Did you not obtain the final Tiger Dojo? Because it quite explicitly hints that the Fate route Shirou has a good chance of becoming Archer.

Also, not sure if that translation is accurate, because if it is, it doesn't mean anything. Archer isn't a Heroic Spirit, he's a Counter Guardian.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I was very surprised as well. I never thought Kotomine used to be such a highly moral man, or at least one that fooled himself into believing he was. He was actually sort of a decent priest back then. He pretty much ended up becoming the incarnation of his definition of evil.

It's fascinating to see how much Gil influenced him. Sure, Kirei was broken from the start, but if not for his meeting with Gilgamesh he might have never embraced evil.

What makes Kotomine a fascinating character is that he was born evil and broken, but tried to live a life of virtue and sacrifice, denying the 'appearance' of his soul and what brought him fulfillment until he met Gilgamesh who, like the Snake to Eve, gave him the taste of the vice of watching suffering.

And he realized that was the only thing in life that stopped the emptiness inside of him.

It was very tragic. He has awareness of good and evil, but if he tries to be good, he's joyless, and he tries to be evil, he also dislikes it.