Mobile Suit Gundam UC Unicorn - Generic Anime Discussion

[bio9205]

I still don't think anything can beat Episode 4's B-Bird - but bring it on!

Less than 2 months to Episode 5!

[casval cehack]

Originally Posted by konart

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/inte...c-no.5-opening

They're clearly trying different styles. Curiously, Kylee was also in X'amd.

[duotiga]

the teaser is out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGmUs7xmVzI

[casval cehack]

So Kai Shinden is also in this episode.

[duotiga]

a much better video

http://youtu.be/vxsnpMVuHLY

[bio9205]

HOLY UNICORNS I CAN'T WAIT

Boy, that song sucks. Couldn't really tell much on what's going on from that video, but nice to see something nonetheless.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Who noticed Kai Shiden in the preview? Wonder what he's up to this time and if it involves rescuing would be traitors in jungle environments.

[PzIVf3]

Boom boom satellite.....my head hurts.

[rakusukira]

Looks like riddhe's gonna get dumped again

[teh_nubkilr]

I look greatly forward to seeing the Banshee in combat. Personally, I feel that B-Bird is probably a better song than Boom boom satellite. There is a possibility I may grow to like it, but we'll see.

[Roger Rambo]

Something I'm just somewhat curious about the series.

Spoiler for about Laplaces Box:

I'm not sure I understand the significance of the original Universal Century charter in the context of all the conflict that has happened in the universe. I know that hypothetically Spacenoids should be extremely motivated by the documents existence and it's suppression...but does that make sense?

I mean, if I was a resident of a Space Colony, I'm not sure I'd be so concerned over abstract political issues related to Colony independence...not when 17 years ago half the human race got wiped out by Zeon in the name of Spacenoid independence. Maybe on a level I'd be angry at the Earth Elite keeping this secret...but on a practical level, shouldn't I be far more concerned about security? There are STILL tons of Zeon holdouts carrying out military operations. Hell, just three years after the war ended they nuked a Federation fleet and even dropped a colony on North America.

If I'm actively concerned about some Zeon fanatic popping my O'neil Cylinder open, I'm not sure independence from the Federation would be the first thing on my mind.

[Sumeragi]

Spoiler for My thoughts:

Well, in my view (coming from someone who hasn't read the novels), the importance of Laplace's Box is that it gives legitimacy of the Sides having at least an equal status as the Federation. Right now the Sides are colonies for all intentions and purpose, with no representation. Laplace's Box would help break the Federation's hegemony and thus bring about a new political balance. Once that happens, the Federation has only military power to back its claims as the superior organization.

[RES-01 Perses Gundam]

Well. I'm not sure about how most Spacenoids think. But I'm sure there is more than a minority which feels that the responsibility for all the atrocities and tragedies lie with the Federation. A Spacenoid can easily rationalise Zeon's massarces in the One Year War as "for the greater good". Besides, if Zeon didn't nuke the colonies, they might not have levelled the field with the Federation, and might not have lasted for so long in a war with their resource-rich enemies. Though it's possible many Spacenoids also scorn Zeon's methods, but nonetheless, many could still see Zeon as the "lesser evil", and thus rather cooperate with Zeon than with the Federation.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Spoiler for My thoughts:

Well, in my view (coming from someone who hasn't read the novels), the importance of Laplace's Box is that it gives legitimacy of the Sides having at least an equal status as the Federation. Right now the Sides are colonies for all intentions and purpose, with no representation. Laplace's Box would help break the Federation's hegemony and thus bring about a new political balance. Once that happens, the Federation has only military power to back its claims as the superior organization.

Spoiler for thoughts:

Yeah, and by itself it's not a bad plot device and it DOES kinda make sense in this setting.

It's just that Federation/Earth Hegemony doesn't seem like a plausible primary concern in the context of the One Year War and Zeon holdouts trying to continue the war. Federation hegemony is what's opposing the "terrorists" that wiped out half the human race, and even just three years ago tried to use weapons of mass destruction(colony drops) to wipe out civilization on earth. Look at the kind of security mania America went through after 9/11. And that was just 3000 people being killed, here we're talking about billions. The average spacenoid really wouldn't be griping about the Federation treating them like colonies. They'd be living in abject terror that some Zeon fanatic might blow their colony up.

I don't think in this kind of environment you could have any discussion about colonial independence until everyone who remembered the OYW were either really old or dead.

Originally Posted by RES-01 Perses Gundam

Well. I'm not sure about how most Spacenoids think. But I'm sure there is more than a minority which feels that the responsibility for all the atrocities and tragedies lie with the Federation. A Spacenoid can easily rationalise Zeon's massarces in the One Year War as "for the greater good". Besides, if Zeon didn't nuke the colonies, they might not have levelled the field with the Federation, and might not have lasted for so long in a war with their resource-rich enemies. Though it's possible many Spacenoids also scorn Zeon's methods, but nonetheless, many could still see Zeon as the "lesser evil", and thus rather cooperate with Zeon than with the Federation.

That MIGHT make sense if the majority of the people Zeon killed weren't other Spacenoids, and the destruction wasn't so overwhelming. It's easy to rationalize other people being mass murdered in the name of the greater good. It's much harder when you realize you're the target, and that statistically speaking your survival of the first month of the war was based on a coin toss (heads you're the 50% that die, tails 50% that lived).

People operate out of self interest. They're not going to rationalize the actions of a group that caused such an unprecedented level of harm against them. Humans just aren't that idealistic.


edit:I think a good example to look to would be China's perception of Japan after WW2. China certainly didn't appreciate or try to justify what Japan did in their country in the name of anti colonialism. Even to this day anti Japanese sentiment is a fairly substantial issue in China, and it's been over 70 years since the war ended.

This might in fact be a reason why anti-Zeon sentiment amongst Spacenoids doesn't get addressed that much in Gundam. It hits a bit to close to home on current sensitive political issues.

[Helius]

Originally Posted by bio9205

HOLY UNICORNS I CAN'T WAIT

Boy, that song sucks. Couldn't really tell much on what's going on from that video, but nice to see something nonetheless.

Y'know, I thought this techno lounge kind of music fits the show rather well, much better than the previous theme songs I've heard so far.

[RES-01 Perses Gundam]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

That MIGHT make sense if the majority of the people Zeon killed weren't other Spacenoids, and the destruction wasn't so overwhelming. It's easy to rationalize other people being mass murdered in the name of the greater good. It's much harder when you realize you're the target, and that statistically speaking your survival of the first month of the war was based on a coin toss (heads you're the 50% that die, tails 50% that lived).

People operate out of self interest. They're not going to rationalize the actions of a group that caused such an unprecedented level of harm against them. Humans just aren't that idealistic.


edit:I think a good example to look to would be China's perception of Japan after WW2. China certainly didn't appreciate or try to justify what Japan did in their country in the name of anti colonialism. Even to this day anti Japanese sentiment is a fairly substantial issue in China, and it's been over 70 years since the war ended.

This might in fact be a reason why anti-Zeon sentiment amongst Spacenoids doesn't get addressed that much in Gundam. It hits a bit to close to home on current sensitive political issues.

I have been fairly nuanced in my post, yet I still got bombarded like this..

You made a false comparison. Anti-colonialism was hardly the focus of any Japanese war campaign. In fact, it was merely propaganda in order to attract support from Asian nationalists. This hypocrisy merely hardened Chinese sentiments and escalated their historical discourse, which stretched to centuries and millenia. On the other hand, Zeon under the Zabis were genuinely interested and capable of achieving independence for Spacenoids. Yes, I understand that they killed innocent Spacenoids, despite their supposed intentions, that's why I acknowledged that many probably feel resentment towards the Zeon. But with time, and regime change, people still end up seeing Zeon as the only source of inspiration and hope against the die-hard Federation. In Unicorn episode 2, Marida herself said that many Spacenoids cling unto Zeon because there is no alternative to an active military and political movement pursuing Spacenoid independence.

[Sumeragi]

To say this simply: Currently the Spacenoids have only armed resistance or complete subjection as choices. Laplace's Box gives a third alternative by striking at the heart of the Federation's political system. That is why it's important.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by RES-01 Perses Gundam

I have been fairly nuanced in my post, yet I still got bombarded like this..

You made a false comparison. Anti-colonialism was hardly the focus of any Japanese war campaign. In fact, it was merely propaganda in order to attract support from Asian nationalists. This hypocrisy merely hardened Chinese sentiments and escalated their historical discourse, which stretched to centuries and millenia. On the other hand, Zeon under the Zabis were genuinely interested and capable of achieving independence for Spacenoids.

Why is it a false comparison? The Zabi's were dictators, and the primary reason they wanted to destroy Federation Hegemony was so that it could be replaced with Zabi Hegemony. How would Spacenoids be anymore free under dictators than corrupt democratic politicians?

Originally Posted by RES-01 Perses Gundam

Yes, I understand that they killed innocent Spacenoids, despite their supposed intentions, that's why I acknowledged that many probably feel resentment towards the Zeon.

The Zeon killed billions of Spacenoids. Suppose if tomorrow I pressed a button and killed every single person in China and India combined? Still a lower body count than what Zeon racked up in the first month of the war.

"Resentment" seems like somewhat of an understatement.

[RES-01 Perses Gundam]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Why is it a false comparison? The Zabi's were dictators, and the primary reason they wanted to destroy Federation Hegemony was so that it could be replaced with Zabi Hegemony. How would Spacenoids be anymore free under dictators than corrupt democratic politicians?

The Zeon killed billions of Spacenoids. Suppose if tomorrow I pressed a button and killed every single person in China and India combined? Still a lower body count than what Zeon racked up in the first month of the war.

"Resentment" seems like somewhat of an understatement.

Like I said before, who other than the Zabis can hold the banner for Spacenoid independence? In the One Year War, there was no alternative power. To the Spacenoids, probably, it's not a matter of dictatorship or not, authoritarian rule or democracy, but a matter of worlds of being ruled under people that don't understand space, and people who can empathise with their sufferings. And if the Spacenoids so yearn for democracy, they should realise that despite Zeon's streak of authoritarianism, they can use democracy to topple the Zabis after their victory.

I want to repeat: this is my opinion, it doesn't reflect the views of all, most, some or even one Spacenoid.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Why is it a false comparison? The Zabi's were dictators, and the primary reason they wanted to destroy Federation Hegemony was so that it could be replaced with Zabi Hegemony. How would Spacenoids be anymore free under dictators than corrupt democratic politicians?

You probably don't know what happened before the rise of Zeon Zum Deikun. Basically, the Federation were shipping the lower echelon of society into space, giving them no representation, crushing any dissent with military force, etc. Under the Zabis they at least had a sense of getting any sort of true representation (even if it was a farce); under the Federation, they were truly just colonies being exploited.

In a sense, Zeon is a combination of the American Revolution, Occupied China, and Nazi Germany. They are fighting for freedom against those that do not give them representation, they are fighting against an occupying force who is not reluctant to use violence to enforce subjection, and they gathered around a dictatorship to bring about freedom and eventually, hegemony. This isn't as morally unambiguous as World War II, this is basically a conflict between two extremely bad alternatives.