Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Sander RX]

Spoiler for Code Geass and Char's Counterattack:

Lelouch was damn popular,they killed him off.Char was helluva popular,they killed him off.

What makes Kira more sacred than Char?

[Seibee]

He resists all attempts to kill him. Like a combination of a cockroach and Captain Scarlet.

[Lolipopo]

Originally Posted by Sander RX

Spoiler for Code Geass and Char's Counterattack:

Lelouch was damn popular,they killed him off.Char was helluva popular,they killed him off.

What makes Kira more sacred than Char?

The love Fuckuda got for pandering to his fans ?
Oh well, even as a fan, my hopes for this movie aren't this much high. I just pray for them to find a way to make up for Athrun's stupidity in Destiny.
Please. I loved this character in Seed, so make me forget this **** of Destiny.

Now I think a kiss for Lacus and Kira isn't possible. That's sure. Seriously, if the saga is over without a kiss for them, well...they need at least a closure in a romantic field. I don't care at all about them (because Flay FTW) but I don't think we'll avoid the kiss for this one.

Now I wonder what is going to be the plot for this one. Maybe a thing à la Endless Waltz, with some reminding of Raw...

[4Tran]

First off, we have spoiler tags so use them. Since this thread is about a third installment of Seed, it's safe to assume that everyone reading it is familiar with the first two, so spoiler tags aren't necessary for Seed/Destiny. However, it's not safe to assume that everyone here has watched any other Gundam show, much less a non-Gundam show like Code Geass.


As for killing Kira off, that's dependent on whether it would serve the story. If doing so doesn't serve to accomplish anything for the narrative, then what would be the point?

[oxblud]

Hopefully this isn't in the wrong section, but I've been wanting to watch GS/GSD again & was wondering if anybody knew of a release that infused the extra scenes from the SE movies?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by oxblud

Hopefully this isn't in the wrong section, but I've been wanting to watch GS/GSD again & was wondering if anybody knew of a release that infused the extra scenes from the SE movies?

The special editions and the TV series are separate works that don't necessarily naturally translate to one another, so you'll probably never see them on the same DVD. If you're asking for a compilation fansub, please don't. Both shows are licensed so you're not allowed to ask for that kind of thing.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by oxblud

Hopefully this isn't in the wrong section, but I've been wanting to watch GS/GSD again & was wondering if anybody knew of a release that infused the extra scenes from the SE movies?

The SE movies is the only place you'll see them... There're no special releases that have them (though Destiny's flashback scenes use the SE scenes where applicable)

[Daril Gukku]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

First off, we have spoiler tags so use them. Since this thread is about a third installment of Seed, it's safe to assume that everyone reading it is familiar with the first two, so spoiler tags aren't necessary for Seed/Destiny. However, it's not safe to assume that everyone here has watched any other Gundam show, much less a non-Gundam show like Code Geass.


As for killing Kira off, that's dependent on whether it would serve the story. If doing so doesn't serve to accomplish anything for the narrative, then what would be the point?

I know they planned to kill him off in the original Seed ending. But I think they missed their chance to kill him when they didn't do it then. Now it wouldn't really serve a purpose at all other than to piss off the fanbase.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Daril Gukku

I know they planned to kill him off in the original Seed ending. But I think they missed their chance to kill him when they didn't do it then. Now it wouldn't really serve a purpose at all other than to piss off the fanbase.

It could serve a story purpose? There's a reason why they didn't kill him in Seed--because by that point they probably were considering a sequel...

However, if this movie is indeed intended to end the Seed saga, then there's really no reason not to kill him if it serves the story... (and they did say they intend to make this movie epic and unforgettable... PR or not the death of a main character would serve that purpose)

[RAVNEN]

Kill off the money maker called Kira Yamato. CCounter attack moment all over again. Hopefully they won't end SEED saga with just a movie.There more in it that can be squezze out.

At least continue the Astray story.

[Daril Gukku]

Originally Posted by brightman

It could serve a story purpose? There's a reason why they didn't kill him in Seed--because by that point they probably were considering a sequel...

However, if this movie is indeed intended to end the Seed saga, then there's really no reason not to kill him if it serves the story... (and they did say they intend to make this movie epic and unforgettable... PR or not the death of a main character would serve that purpose)

They didn't kill him in the end of Seed because of the fanbase reaction. The original end had Fllay alive and pregnant, I believe, Kira dead, and Athrun crippled. But by then Kira and Lacus had conquered Japan, so they altered it.

I say there is no reason to kill him now because I honestly don't believe there is anything more to tell with the Seed story. I'm disappointed there's a movie actually.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Daril Gukku

They didn't kill him in the end of Seed because of the fanbase reaction. The original end had Fllay alive and pregnant, I believe, Kira dead, and Athrun crippled. But by then Kira and Lacus had conquered Japan, so they altered it.

Actually the original had Flay piloting Strike Rouge and strapping herself to a bomb and blowing Archangel and Sai up.

And no one ever explained why they decided not to kill Kira. Your statement is an assumption just like mine was. Doesn't make it any more right or wrong unless we get an official statement.

Besides, as mentioned above, some extremely popular characters have been killed before.

I say there is no reason to kill him now because I honestly don't believe there is anything more to tell with the Seed story. I'm disappointed there's a movie actually.

This is your reason or Bandai/Sunrise's reason to not kill him? Doesn't make much sense either way, don't you think?

[Daril Gukku]

Originally Posted by brightman

Actually the original had Flay piloting Strike Rouge and strapping herself to a bomb and blowing Archangel and Sai up.

And no one ever explained why they decided not to kill Kira. Your statement is an assumption just like mine was. Doesn't make it any more right or wrong unless we get an official statement.

Besides, as mentioned above, some extremely popular characters have been killed before.



This is your reason or Bandai/Sunrise's reason to not kill him? Doesn't make much sense either way, don't you think?

The pregnant Fllay/Kira saved because of fans was from an interview someone on /m/ linked too. Obvs its 4chan, so everything has to be taken with a grain of salt.

That's my reason. I'm not saying its the RIGHT reason or anything thing, I just think that making another movie with Kira and the gang is just to pull in more cash, and really doesn't bode well. Seed was good. Destiny was a trainwreck. I don't know what the movie will be like, but it doesn't bode well. I'm disappointed because their taking characters I liked and reducing them to nothing more than cardboard cutouts so they can get more cash. It's my personal opinion, just like my opinion that Seed has nothing more to say with its story.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by brightman

Actually the original had Flay piloting Strike Rouge and strapping herself to a bomb and blowing Archangel and Sai up.

And no one ever explained why they decided not to kill Kira. Your statement is an assumption just like mine was. Doesn't make it any more right or wrong unless we get an official statement.

Besides, as mentioned above, some extremely popular characters have been killed before.

It's far more likely that they thought up of a better way to build an ending with more impact, so they went with it. I still can't get over how awful the proposed Seed ending sounds.

In any case, I would much prefer if Kira weren't the main character (however unlikely my wishes are to being met). He's been overshadowed by Cagalli and Lacus ever since the end of Seed, and it's a prime opportunity to do some new things.

Originally Posted by Daril Gukku

I say there is no reason to kill him now because I honestly don't believe there is anything more to tell with the Seed story. I'm disappointed there's a movie actually.

I've said before that the Cosmic Era universe still contains the most fertile ground for story ideas of any of the Gundam universes. Here's a partial list:

• PLANT now has to recover from another big military defeat, and they now have a new leader. There will still be lots of Durandal and Zala followers to cause trouble, and the reasons for the previous two wars are still largely in place.
  
• Orb is now in a totally different position than it has ever been. While it's still small, it's now the default leading nation on Earth, and the old neutral stance is no longer tenable. Cagalli may be a lot stronger now, but she still has to contend with Seiran's supporters, and she's still relatively inexperienced.
  
• Earth Alliance is in absolute shambles. Large portions of it are strongly at odds with one another, and the Atlantic Federation has lost its leader. The recipe is ripe for civil wars all over the place.
  
• While the leaders of PLANT and Orb are very friendly with one another, the two nations are far from natural allies, and their interest lie in largely opposite directions.
  
• Nothing has been done to resolve the Coordinator crisis.

While I don't think that they'll go that route, there's all sorts of stories that can be told without involving a single established character. There's also the option of setting stories in Cosmic Era 110+. I don't really trust Sunrise to do that great a job with the universe, but there's definitely a lot of untapped potential there.

Originally Posted by Daril Gukku

The pregnant Fllay/Kira saved because of fans was from an interview someone on /m/ linked too. Obvs its 4chan, so everything has to be taken with a grain of salt.

Even if it were better sourced, this rumor is unlikely for all sorts of reasons. Not least of which is that a pregnant Fllay runs completely counter to all of the themes that had been built up in Seed.

[germanturkey]

Kira overshadowed by Cagalli? maybe in terms of horrible character direction. Even during seed, Cagalli was pretty much only good while she was running around outside. as soon as she got back to orb and put on that horrible looking uniform, her character began to go down hill. the slide continued in destiny, and was only accelerated by Fukuda severing her one connection to any good character in Athrun..

I agree that CE does have a lot of loose ends they could tie up, but chances are we'll get another natural extremist group take on the plants. because unlike the earth alliance, they actually have a powerful leader, and even if there were anti lacus factions, they couldn't stand the might of Kira and the Doms.

[Kusa-San]

Uh Kira overshadowed by Cagalli. Not Really no. Sorry but, personnaly, i don't see any other character in the show with more potential BG than Kira. Kira must be the main character for the sake of a good story. They can do a very good story with the Ultimate Coordinator BG and a crossover with the rest of the Seed Univers cast.

And please not a EA VS Plant again >_>

[zalem]

Yeah, I don't get how Cagalli overshadowed anyone. Especially in GSD, unless it's overshadowing due to her horrible character development. Kira definitely outshone her and imho he was equal to Lacus.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I've said before that the Cosmic Era universe still contains the most fertile ground for story ideas of any of the Gundam universes. Here's a partial list:

• PLANT now has to recover from another big military defeat, and they now have a new leader. There will still be lots of Durandal and Zala followers to cause trouble, and the reasons for the previous two wars are still largely in place.
  
• Orb is now in a totally different position than it has ever been. While it's still small, it's now the default leading nation on Earth, and the old neutral stance is no longer tenable. Cagalli may be a lot stronger now, but she still has to contend with Seiran's supporters, and she's still relatively inexperienced.
  
• Earth Alliance is in absolute shambles. Large portions of it are strongly at odds with one another, and the Atlantic Federation has lost its leader. The recipe is ripe for civil wars all over the place.
  
• While the leaders of PLANT and Orb are very friendly with one another, the two nations are far from natural allies, and their interest lie in largely opposite directions.
  
• Nothing has been done to resolve the Coordinator crisis.

While I don't think that they'll go that route, there's all sorts of stories that can be told without involving a single established character. There's also the option of setting stories in Cosmic Era 110+. I don't really trust Sunrise to do that great a job with the universe, but there's definitely a lot of untapped potential there.

The thing about your list is that all these items have been dealt with before in the show, so somehow if these make it to another future series there would be another serious case of deja vu. IMO one of the problems with multiple shows in the same timeline, which I think Sunrise/Bandai saw when they decided to do the AUs, is that its tough to keep a single timeline fresh with new ideas. UC shows got rather repetitive because of this lack of fresh ideas, with each show merely rehashing things from the previous. And more PLANT terrorists, weak Cagalli struggling to lead, Earth Alliance turmoil, PLANT/Orb tensions and so forth would do exactly that: rehash old plotlines and bring nothing new to the table.

Remember that Fukuda himself said that he had already done all he wanted to do in the first Seed and practically had no idea what direction to take Destiny. Imagine what would happen if there is a third series with similar settings. (and before anyone suggest bringing in a new director, keep in mind that no competent director on his right mind would want to be saddled with the creative constraints that a Seed threequel would have)

That's why IMO they either need to do something in the far future of that universe (which would be tough due to the technology progression of that timeline) to provide new ideas or just end it with the movie so they can focus on other timelines that can bring in new concepts.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by germanturkey

Kira overshadowed by Cagalli? maybe in terms of horrible character direction. Even during seed, Cagalli was pretty much only good while she was running around outside.

Outside of combat, Cagalli did overshadow Kira in terms of character development, influence, power and potential character threads in Destiny. And while you might not like the direction her character moved in, I thought that it was both flavorful and interesting.

It's worth pointing out

Originally Posted by germanturkey

I agree that CE does have a lot of loose ends they could tie up, but chances are we'll get another natural extremist group take on the plants. because unlike the earth alliance, they actually have a powerful leader, and even if there were anti lacus factions, they couldn't stand the might of Kira and the Doms.

while that's certainly the path of least resistance, I'm less concerned with what they're likely to do than the potential inherent in the setting. Said potential can do a great deal without even bringing in any of the original characters.

Originally Posted by brightman

The thing about your list is that all these items have been dealt with before in the show, so somehow if these make it to another future series there would be another serious case of deja vu.

<SNIP>

And more PLANT terrorists, weak Cagalli struggling to lead, Earth Alliance turmoil, PLANT/Orb tensions and so forth would do exactly that: rehash old plotlines and bring nothing new to the table.

I'd agree with your statement if we were to change "been dealt with" with "peripherally touched upon". It would only be a rehash if they were to go down the previous paths; and that's completely unnecessary. Admittedly, most of the storylines would play out much better if it weren't under the auspices and conventions of the Gundam franchise, but I've always maintained that it'd be better to go with new and untried anyways. And for that matter, many of those storylines aren't particularly well suited towards mecha action. Of course this is much more what I would like rather that what Gundam fans may want, but them's the breaks.

Originally Posted by brightman

IMO one of the problems with multiple shows in the same timeline, which I think Sunrise/Bandai saw when they decided to do the AUs, is that its tough to keep a single timeline fresh with new ideas. UC shows got rather repetitive because of this lack of fresh ideas, with each show merely rehashing things from the previous.

Well, by the time of Victory, the franchise had moved so far from its roots that it didn't really matter all that much whether it was a UC show or not. And in general, I think that that's only true because the franchise itself is too conservative. There are tons of universes out there that manage to keep fresh by trying out new things all the time rather than being so wrapped up by what's being "true" to the franchise.

Originally Posted by brightman

Remember that Fukuda himself said that he had already done all he wanted to do in the first Seed and practically had no idea what direction to take Destiny. Imagine what would happen if there is a third series with similar settings. (and before anyone suggest bringing in a new director, keep in mind that no competent director on his right mind would want to be saddled with the creative constraints that a Seed threequel would have)

There's a big difference between a creator not knowing what potential a universe has and what potential that universe has. Besides, I'm not sure why what Fukuda said once upon a time is all that important to begin with - it's been years since then, and there's plenty of time to have come up with new ideas.

Originally Posted by brightman

That's why IMO they either need to do something in the far future of that universe (which would be tough due to the technology progression of that timeline) to provide new ideas or just end it with the movie so they can focus on other timelines that can bring in new concepts.

Why would the technology progression be all that tough to deal with? I'd love to see something from Cosmic Era 110 or 210 or something like that.

In any case, any conjecture about future projects can wait until the movie surfaces.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I'd agree with your statement if we were to change "been dealt with" with "peripherally touched upon". It would only be a rehash if they were to go down the previous paths; and that's completely unnecessary. Admittedly, most of the storylines would play out much better if it weren't under the auspices and conventions of the Gundam franchise, but I've always maintained that it'd be better to go with new and untried anyways. And for that matter, many of those storylines aren't particularly well suited towards mecha action. Of course this is much more what I would like rather that what Gundam fans may want, but them's the breaks.


Well, by the time of Victory, the franchise had moved so far from its roots that it didn't really matter all that much whether it was a UC show or not. And in general, I think that that's only true because the franchise itself is too conservative. There are tons of universes out there that manage to keep fresh by trying out new things all the time rather than being so wrapped up by what's being "true" to the franchise.

Agreed. Something like Macross, where every new installment is different and explores different themes and ideas, manages to keep things fresh even while featuring the same universe and same basic framework. I don't believe the Gundam metaverse, nor the Gundam Seed franchise itself can be treated that way. Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny has had a commercially successful formula that has been proven to work for its particular target demographic. I don't see them tweaking with it if they do make a new TV series.

With that in mind, I think my point that a new series would be more rehashes of old plotlines and themes is quite plausible.

There's a big difference between a creator not knowing what potential a universe has and what potential that universe has. Besides, I'm not sure why what Fukuda said once upon a time is all that important to begin with - it's been years since then, and there's plenty of time to have come up with new ideas.

That line was actually stated fairly recently, actually. Last year in fact. So I assume that what he felt back then still applies.

The fact is that Fukuda will be the man in charge of Seed no matter what (with the exception of minor sidestories like Stargazer). Its already suffocating to be a Gundam director due to all the pressures exerted by the powers to be, but to be creatively confined by existing settings and characters also would be a complete no-no for anyone else to take over. And as Fukuda has shown that he's thrown everything he had in the first two series, it might indeed be tough for him to come up with more.

Why would the technology progression be all that tough to deal with? I'd love to see something from Cosmic Era 110 or 210 or something like that.

Because technology progresses way too fast in this timeline. Keep in mind that in two years, the technology in CE basically went from what is the equivalent of UC 0079 to what is the equivalent of UC 0153. So it would be hard to do a series taking place forty years or later like you said because the technology would be way too futuristic for the Gundam franchise. I guess there could be technology stagnation or even reset like in other Gundam shows, but really, anything beyond what's shown in Destiny at least is already uncharted territory, so it might be a challenge for them to come out with new technology that still fits within the confines of the Gundam metaverse.