2010-12-12, 21:34 | Link #19681 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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"Erika" didn't exist before the same way "Beatrice" was said to not exist for Battler 6 years before. However as soon as she "existed" she had a corpse to move with, exactly like "Beatrice". This theory can also explain why Erika can see Shannon and Kanon, because apparently there's no problem with Erika seeing her own furnitures. It can't be denied that she sees Dlanor. Erika first appears in front of Maria, at the same time and same place where usually Beatrice appears. It is important to note that we aren't made to see Erika at that very time. If I'm right it's because Maria basically just saw Yasu. However Ep7 explained that Maria can see through appearances. It is then said that Maria brought this new guest to Kumasawa and Genji. Not to her mother or her cousins. To Kumasawa and Genji!!! Do I need to say more? And I have more. It is almost impossible to think that Erika and the "man from 19 years before" did not act in concert. Are their moves just happening to match that perfectly? Ridiculous! It's a lot easier to think they are two "persona" of the same being. And then who could possibly pull off the part of a detective? Who in this story could be so knowledgeable about the mystery genre? Of course there's Battler, Kumasawa and Nanjo, but they couldn't really disguise adequately and why not going with someone which already had an aptitude to wear masks and become someone else? Erika then clearly makes some evident "furniture talks". The most notable hint is when she says that her body is just "a cage of flesh". And whom did I hear that expression from again? Oh yeah: Beatrice, several times! And then Kanon! Last: the final duel of EP6. Beatrice VS Erika. Doesn't that sound extremely similar to Shannon VS Kanon?
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2010-12-12, 21:52 | Link #19682 | |
Zurajanai! Katsura da!
Join Date: Jul 2010
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It's like Erika wanted to leave room for Natsuhi to be the culprit at the expense of exposing a trick which means quite a lot to an intellectual rapist I think. |
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2010-12-12, 23:06 | Link #19685 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Not really if you think that Lambda actually had the power to do that.
It is said that she scribbled on the gameboard it was never said that she actually changed it. Does the introduction of a completely new human in the closed circle qualifies as scribbling? It's hard to tell. I think that Erika being a human in the fiction can still work and it does seem more consistent with the red that Roger Pepitone mentioned, however the hints about Erika being "furniture" really abound. Also humans on the gameboard shouldn't be able to be that "meta". As kylon said, they are fictions but that doesn't mean they can be completely inconsistent.
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2010-12-12, 23:20 | Link #19686 |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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I'd say Lambda has the power to do anything she wants as long as her board tells us something about Rokkenjima Prime*. If you think about it, the addition of another person to the island isn't too different from killing different people in the first twilight, or assigning them different roles, and it doesn't really affect the core of the mystery as we know it.
Additionally, Erika could be seen as an entity (despite being furniture) in the meta world, but a human piece in the board, and as such she has external influence on the board but is also an internally consistent human piece. A good analogy is a roleplaying game. We have pieces controlled by the game master who exist only in the board, but fellow players have characters both outside and inside the board. If you think about it, in a roleplaying game, there's nothing stopping your character from breaking the fourth wall. But we usually don't do it because it harms the spirit of the game. Although, this isn't to say Erika can't symbolise something else (e.g. Yet Another Yasu Username ; -) in addition. *Edit: to clarify, I don't think she'd be able to change the board in a way that changes Beato's core mystery. For example, if the same conditions as the Rokkenjima of EP1 occurred, but nobody was killed. Last edited by witchfan; 2010-12-12 at 23:38. |
2010-12-13, 01:41 | Link #19687 |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
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As much as it does seem to make sense, i dont like that it adds more to Yasus....."imaginary friends"......altough thinking about it more, "Erika" maybe created for Yasu to brun bridges with people close to her other personalities as seen with how she acts towards Jessica Battler and Maria, but strangely not towards George(that i recall). Sure creating Erika just so she could push people away and abandon those personalities to focus *cough settle cough* on George seems a bit much but hey why she them in the first place isnt that far off.
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2010-12-13, 01:43 | Link #19688 |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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I have to agree yet disagree with Erika being Yasu. I agree that it fits from the angle of a persona of Yasu; however, I don't think Yasu is a murderer. Erika seems to be a murderer, so she seems to be a completely different person. Perhaps Erika as a persona is not limited to Yasu's motives.
I mean, Erika in this sense would be a good clue to how Yasu works, but Erika committing a murder AND being a part of Yasu seems wrong. A total stranger he has no obligation to help, perhaps this would be where Genji gained his sense of loyalty to a complete stranger; he feels he must repent for putting a stranger in such an awkward position. The child of Kinzo and Beatrice II would be someone Genji has an obligation to protect.
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Last edited by Smeckledorf; 2010-12-13 at 01:57. |
2010-12-13, 02:02 | Link #19689 | |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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If you are talking about the 'mystery genre', I don't think Beato have a 'core mystery'. She's depicted to have been on a brink of logic error herself multiple times when she was facing Battler and changing many of her own mysteries to corner Battler while equally risking herself. Unless of course, you are talking about 'mystery' as the 'concealed truth' and not the genre. Even then this is debatable because if the 'truth' has to be present somehow in ALL games, someone should've been able to solve Umineko a long time ago by seeking consistencies. That's why Rokkenjima Prime is still just speculation, because there is just not enough credible evidence and the stories together just lack consistency. Even the consistency of Battler showing up in 1986; the one thing that should be part of the truth; have been broken in ep.7. Be as it may that ep.7 could be considered Bern's game (though she herself denied that), if you argue that LD couldn't change the core truths, what made Bern (or whoever the master of ep.7 is) can? Edit: What I mean is the game master could choose which part of the truth to present to us the readers, and decide arbitrarily how to present them, much to our dismay.
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Last edited by erneiz_hyde; 2010-12-13 at 02:13. |
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2010-12-13, 03:03 | Link #19690 |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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A mystery, by definition, is a concealed truth. The opinion that a mystery does not exist is a valid one, but it does not allow further reasoning. People who participate in the debates here, I assume, believe that a mystery exists, and want to unravel it. That a mystery exists is an axiom we choose to accept, much like the axiom that "what is written in red is an undisputed fact". If we don't accept these two points, we have nothing to base our thinking on, and arguably, no reason to think at all.
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2010-12-13, 10:38 | Link #19691 | |
Miss Kimi
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 28
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2010-12-13, 11:40 | Link #19692 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
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Ok, I get it - Ryuukishi is THE greatest troll EVER.
I've just started re-reading the 1st novel and with the knowledge of the latter 6 pretty much EVERY *****NG scene and dialogue seems to have at least 2 meanings. And every so often he even mocks us with "time to start getting tips" and alike after the major hints (totally unnoticeable during first read) |
2010-12-13, 13:30 | Link #19693 | |||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Genji is not a good person. If you believe what we're told, at least. But then again, the portrayal of Ronove seems to suggest a person who is not all that bad, though certainly sly. And Kanon and Yasu don't seem to think he's so bad candidly. So what is his deal? Which brings me to a topic I wanted to raise. We have this notion of Meta-Beatrice as taking on certain aspects of the three Beatrices and called into being with Battler as the catalyst. However, there is a certain aspect of Beatrice's behavior which seems out of place, namely her ability to affect cruelty and perform cruel acts (whether or not she really enjoyed doing them). It kind of bothers me. Yasu has the creativity, Beatrice Castiglioni has the sass, Beatrice-2 has the innocence and desire to know herself, but Beatrice has a mean and even erotic streak that none of them appear to possess themselves. The argument "well Yasu could be like that, if she wanted to" is unsupported by strong evidence, even though I think this is a clear example of a place where that evidence is desirable (especially if she wants to be seen as the culprit; what better way than to show off her cruelty?). Quote:
An author theory approach to Erika-as-independent-entity posits that "as concerns the stories in which Erika appears (End and Dawn), she is a human piece, a character on the board, and also a projected character on the meta-world scene." To use your moon landing example:
The question is whether she also wrote Meta-Erika and Erika's meta-knowledge in Dawn, or if the meta-world is an interpretive layer and Dawn was grossly derailed and mischaracterized in the meta-world (something we wouldn't initially notice, because we don't have the "correct" text of Dawn). Regardless of whether any of those interpretations are correct, it's fine for Erika to "vanish" from the meta-world; it's well-established that such things can happen there. It's not like she spontaneously disappears from the board. We never see any evidence of that. Presumably, she exists on the board/in the text of End/Dawn as normal, until the game/story concludes. Of course it's possible that, in messing up Dawn, she accidentally spontaneously ended the last story in which she was to appear, thus sealing her premature fate. Quote:
I'm sure there's somewhere else I could go with this, but the effort to even think about it is considerable. So I don't wanna.
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2010-12-13, 13:38 | Link #19694 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: With the runaways
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2010-12-13, 14:14 | Link #19695 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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2010-12-13, 14:18 | Link #19696 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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2010-12-13, 14:18 | Link #19697 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
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That was a quote of Hideyoshi from the first novel. I don't actually remember what exactly I noticed just previous to it but I'll try to find tomorrow at work, I'm taking notes there XD Maybe I'll bring my notes home to post them although I'm certain that I'm so slow at re-read that almost anyone found whatever I could already.
Of the most interesting facts I discovered - it was said quite a few times that no hidden doors can exist unless there's been a foreshadowing... in the hindsight it sounds more like "You're looking at the wrong place dumbass! There's been plenty of foreshadowings elsewhere!" In particular - rose that withered FOR-NO-REASON-AT-ALL and the garden "imagine how it was back then" imo - these are clear indications of some sort of undeground passages/hideouts/storage holes... Also, Kanon's first reaction to Battler (after the latter helps lift the bags) was a phrase "Even I,..." should it be continued as : ( cannot save you / cannot stop it ) now? I think whatever plan was set in motion was meant to be done in Battler's absense. |
2010-12-13, 14:23 | Link #19698 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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A rose withering could be for whatever reason though, and that one rose is just an exception as the other ones where doing just fine. I did find that particular scene odd though as it could be an allusion to Maria's life in school, that one flower decided to be the target of the witch to spare the rest of the flowers.
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2010-12-13, 14:28 | Link #19700 | |||
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