Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[ila-chan]

I'll have to give credits to y'all who seems to make Seed still popular after all these years (and after a sucessful season of Gundam 00)

Seed (for me) is not a failure. I'll admit, it's the one that made me fall in love with mecha and all (talk about mecha porn...)

Destiny, unfortunately is one of the worse anime I have ever watched. Truthfully, I did watch it to ensure that there's a happy ending to AthrunxCagalli. Sadly, the people of Seed denied my request.

What else? Oh, reused footage, sometimes a bad seiyuu moment, crap dialogue, bad endings... I hope there'll be no movie. For me, Seed is just Seed. There is no Destiny.

[monster]

Originally Posted by SonicX_Zero

Pretty selfish of them being concerned only about Orb and not about the war as a whole.

Why should they? Trying to end all wars is really beyond one ship's capability. Especially since they don't have the advantage of hundreds of years of planning and powerful GN particles.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Lelite

Out of curiosity, what language did you watch it in?

Is that even a valid question? People here knows I always watch things in the original language. In this case I watch the official Bandi Ent translation. Hopefully you watched something that was translated right.

No, they definitely talked about it. Or at the very least, Kira talked about Requiem being the retaliation for Genesis, which I took to mean the destruction of the EA fleet. And to be honest, that's a very logical assumption because that's the ONLY shot Genesis ever fired that took many lives that someone may use as justification for retaliation.

Nope, it was actually a full montage of different events showing how the wars were a cycle of retaliation. There weren't any specific events being compared. If you think there was then you were missing the entire point.

And so, by making their "choice", they became the biggest hypocrites ever. Because, see, for the longest time they were intervening in the worst possible moment, trying to stop all wars. And then all of the sudden, they're all like "Teehee, wars are the cost of giving people a choice! So we have no problems here, brb, taking out the one guy that might have done humanity good." And all in itself, there's nothing wrong with changing perspective - if done right and believable, it might even be quite amazing. Needless to say, it was not done right.

You miss the fact that Kira basically had to choose between the lesser of two evils, and to him the current situation was better than having a tyrant rule over mankind, one who would kill all those who opposes him. Keep in mind that Kira took responsibilty for taking the former path, as he now personally chooses to fight for peace (yes that was not his motivation during Destiny, but was something that he adopted durig his conversation with Dullindal in Ep 50).

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Tak

Look, I understand, comprehend, and accept all of Destiny's shortcomings

I was quite frankly just fucking with the guy.

Tak, cool it there. If you want to continue posting in this thread, I expect you to do so sincerely - it'll be unpleasant if I have to intervene.

Originally Posted by FruitsPunchSamurai

Don't worry little one I'll help your foolish ignorance. By your "logic" why don't we have why Zeta Gundam failed thread? Or why G Gundam failed thread? Or better yet why isn't there a why Gundam Wing failed thread? Certaintly there were aspects of all those series that we didn't like so we can bitch and complain about, so I wonder why Destiny gets the bad rep when it's panned by the majority of the fanbase.

The reason why this thread exists for Destiny is because the thread starter had an axe to grind, and I decided to leave the title alone because it had already drifted into discussing the flaws and merits of Destiny. The same thread doesn't exist for other shows because A) nobody is really interested in discussing them in such detail, and/or B) I don't think that such an inflammatory titled thread should be allowed. B) is the reason why you won't see a "why Gundam 00 sucks" thread.

Originally Posted by FruitsPunchSamurai

The fact that you just came back after two years doesn't help your stance at all since there has been many users who has stated their views on both series, ironically this is the only Destiny related thread that's still active.

Don't read all that much into the thread title. Despite it, most of the posts are interested in a more balanced discussion of the flaws and merits of the show. Besides, there are also the Trilogy thread and the Movie thread, which are still decently active.

Originally Posted by monstert

Why should they? Trying to end all wars is really beyond one ship's capability. Especially since they don't have the advantage of hundreds of years of planning and powerful GN particles.

Precisely. While there are a lot of complaints about Seed/Destiny's lack of realism, the goals of most of the characters are quite realistic, and in line with their capabilities. Those with the totally unworkable goals and concerns tend to be the villains.

[Sir Dearka]

'Tis nice to see the people that actually see the things they are instead of flinging hate arguments.

To this day, I am indeed amazed how much ruckus SEED discussions still cause.

[justavisitor]

Is it just me who thinks that in GSD, Kira and co only tries to stop the war that involves with Orb only?? They might try to stop all wars in Seed, but in Destiny, they were only trying to stop war that involves with Orb..and in the end, i guess no nation wants a big weapon pointing at her (which is exactly what Zaft does), so I guess Orb was right to fight back..it's just hard to think a small nation can fight that well..(you can't use a big weapon to command a nation to do something she doesn't want to do..especially that nation has SF and IJ XD)

And talking about hypocrites, no offense but I think 00's heros are also hypocrites lol

I have committed a lot of crimes
Why do you keep doing it then?
Because the plan is always right
Why is the plan always right
Because it's from Aeolia...
What kind of good plan needs follower to commit all the crimes in order to achieve it's goal?
it's Aeolia's plan
When are you going to face punishment like you always you would
Until my job is done...
Which is when??
When human kinds face alien....
Does alien really exist??
It may....

I like 00 also..but it's just that if ppl thinks Kira and co are hypocrites, then maybe 00's heroes are hypocrites as well??

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

I like 00 also..but it's just that if ppl thinks Kira and co are hypocrites, then maybe 00's heroes are hypocrites as well??

Well, it is a fact that Ali actually pointed out to Lockon(s) all the time. The only reply was something like: "You are a moster that killed x (my mum/brother/dad/many people)! I destroy you!" haha

I think in Destiny, nobody is a hypocrite. Liar, yes, but hypocrites... I don't think so

[kakakka]

00's heroes are hypocrites as well??

They are of course. Because their whole answers to questions are "We are following Aeolia's plan", they got defeated last season. Anyway, curious, but who started that 00 people are not hypocrites? Why bring it here? Go to comparison thread or somewhere...

[justavisitor]

I probably should bring it to other thread...I just overlooked that thread (couldn't find it at that time) and I was just gonna say it in one or two sentences...

My main point on my previous post, besides hypocrites statement, was that any country with enough military strength would try to resist another nation that uses a big weapon pointing at you and tries to mess with your citizen's DNA (and Orb has both SF and IJ)

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

To this day, I am indeed amazed how much ruckus SEED discussions still cause.

Definitely a testament to its popularity, yes?

Speaking of which, if anyone is to be blamed for GSD's supposed failure, its the fans. The Japanese fans wanted Kira back, they wanted to see more of Lacus, they wanted to see them kick ass, the fans want... well, you get the point. Even the most casual viewer of Destiny would notice a gradual shift in the show's character focus middle of the show. Some Western fans are just bitter, since they were left out of any inputs. But, hey, the harsh reality is, North America and Europe are hardly significant markets if compared to East Asia.

Look, I am going to be honest here and admit that I was among one of the fans who wanted to see more of Kira and Lacus. Kira's role in SEED was not enough for me. He cried way too much in the beginning to the point of annoyance, but once he woke up, things begin to change for the better. His determination in Destiny basically glued me on the show.

Nonetheless, even if Shinn was to be made a secondary character, it should not hinder the producers from structuring him into a good secondary character. Along the way, not only were the new characters somewhat ruined, but some of the existing characters (Cagali) got shafted, as well. I got a bit lost in the middle of the mayhem, not sure what I was watching. Even the final episode ended on a rather lukewarm note.

Fortunately, there were the OVAs, FINAL PLUS, The Edge manga, and other materials to supplement GSD's shortcomings. Still, it could have been made a better show. I suppose I can go on, but it'd probably be pages and pages and eventually turned into a rant.

- Tak

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Tak

Fortunately, there were the OVAs, FINAL PLUS, The Edge manga, and other materials to supplement GSD's shortcomings.

And I say "AMEN!" to that.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

And I say "AMEN!" to that.

Aye, the producers did recognize GSD's shortcomings and didn't just go aite, fack ya fans! I quit!. They did their best to patch things up, sure, the result was not perfect, but they deserve accolades for effort.

- Tak

[Sir Dearka]

Yeah. I kinda admit my attitude to Destiny warmed up a little thanks to the OAV movies.
One just could not sympathize with Shinn when he wrecks havoc in his Impulse :P

And hell, even if GSD failed, all those patches and stuff made it look more decent, and then trhere was Stargazer that showed that CE has lots of potential. One should not give up on CE, really.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

One should not give up on CE, really.

The fans aren't and certainly not the producers

Just that the amount of crap sold since Destiny's inception is unbelievable, thus I highly doubt they will just raise hands and give all up after all the financial success it had brought them.

On the other hand, I felt giving best anime director prize to FATkuda twice in a role is slightly undeserving...

- Tak (Space whales and SEED, what next? Guitar controls on Gundams?)

[brightman]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

Is it just me who thinks that in GSD, Kira and co only tries to stop the war that involves with Orb only?? They might try to stop all wars in Seed, but in Destiny, they were only trying to stop war that involves with Orb..and in the end, i guess no nation wants a big weapon pointing at her (which is exactly what Zaft does), so I guess Orb was right to fight back..it's just hard to think a small nation can fight that well..(you can't use a big weapon to command a nation to do something she doesn't want to do..especially that nation has SF and IJ XD)

A big part of Kira's development (yes he did get development) was for him to find his purpose in the world as the sole Ultimate Coordinator (Canard Pars notwithstanding). In the original Seed's After Phase he mentioned that there was a path for him out there that he had to find, and in Destiny he was still unsure of what he would like to do. Seeing as how he certainly didn't consider himself a hero or anything, the only thing he did do was to protect Orb, which was his home. There is nothing wrong with fighting for your country, and its not hypocritical at all.

It wasn't until the end of Destiny, when confronted by Dullindal about the fact that by killing him, Kira would cause the world to lose its only chance at eternal peace, and that war would surely return, it was then that Kira said that he would fight to end it. So he essentially took responsibility for causing the opportunity for peace to be lost, and basically found the role he was looking for--as the preserver of peace in the world.

And talking about hypocrites, no offense but I think 00's heros are also hypocrites lol

I have committed a lot of crimes
Why do you keep doing it then?
Because the plan is always right
Why is the plan always right
Because it's from Aeolia...
What kind of good plan needs follower to commit all the crimes in order to achieve it's goal?
it's Aeolia's plan
When are you going to face punishment like you always you would
Until my job is done...
Which is when??
When human kinds face alien....
Does alien really exist??
It may....

I like 00 also..but it's just that if ppl thinks Kira and co are hypocrites, then maybe 00's heroes are hypocrites as well??

People tend to miss the point of the 00 heroes too... After the loss of Veda, they really didn't blindly follow Aeolia's ideals, rather they fought under their own convictions. It just so happens that Aeolia predicted that something like that would happen.

[4Tran]

While I know that Gundam 00 is fresh in everyone's minds, I'm going to request that it not be brought up any more unless it's really relevant. Any spoiler material from that show should be treated as such and placed inside spoiler tags.

Originally Posted by brightman

It wasn't until the end of Destiny, when confronted by Dullindal about the fact that by killing him, Kira would cause the world to lose its only chance at eternal peace, and that war would surely return, it was then that Kira said that he would fight to end it. So he essentially took responsibility for causing the opportunity for peace to be lost, and basically found the role he was looking for--as the preserver of peace in the world.

It's worth noting that, while Kira is shown to put words to their decisions, it's really Lacus who made the call a few episodes earlier as well. He just came to the same conclusion a lot later than she did. While a lot of viewers see them as sharing the same thoughts and what not, they are actually quite different in outlook (although they share very similar principles).

[ila-chan]

Since we know thre's going to be a Gundam 00 movie... I'd have to ask, is the (once) much anticipated Gundam Seed movie is still on?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by ila-chan

Since we know thre's going to be a Gundam 00 movie... I'd have to ask, is the (once) much anticipated Gundam Seed movie is still on?

The creators have said that they will be making a formal announcement about the Seed movie's progress later this year. Unless there's a statement to the contrary, it'd be safer to assume that this is still in place.

[Double 120%]

As soon as they introduced the fake-Lacus non-sense it failed.

[February]

Ok I tried to request new thread but they just sent me here. Either way, I'm just going to post my opinion.

Gundam Seed was a very bad experience for me. I've watched parts of Gundam Z (long time ago, but gave up looking for sub'd episodes), Gundam Wing, Gundam X, Gundam 00, Gundam 8th MS Team, Gundam 0080/0083

When I talk about Gundam Seed, I'm also including the sequel to it: Gundam Seed Destiny as well.

1) Weak Story. I know that the story of Gundam series was not the strong point of the series but Seed's story felt like it was designed to just get-by so that it can show high-powered good action for the younger kids. It was not as political as a lot of the other Gundam stories (which I'm not arguing is a good or bad thing) but if your story is not very political, you better have a good social story. The story is rather dependent on human engineering issue: Naturals and Coordinators. It just doesn't work.

2). Bad Main Character(s): Yes, I'm arguing that both Kira and Shinn were pretty bad main characters. Why? Shinn was driven by emotion and often immature, but honest to his feelings. I could somewhat relate only a little bit with him. Kira, on the other hand, was this incredibly overpowered superior character that also seemed arrogant to me. In season 1, when Kira kicks Sai after stealing his girl, I've lost all my respect and attachment with Kira. I've also hated the fact that Kira would often cry in front of the female characters to get their attention. (At one point, he did it almost about nothing emotional, I still can't remember the exact episode.)

In other Gundam shows, the main character somehow "works" his way to becoming powerful. He trains or he just progresses slowly. This is lacking in Kira, especially during the first few times he pilots Strike, he takes on Athrun's gundam as well as Athrun's teammates. He comes in and decimates everything almost the entire show.

Very little to no character development for Kira + Shinn. Shinn never matured up and Kira turned from arrogant (season 1) to emotionless (season 2)
I don't even understand why the author bothered to include Shinn in Season 2 if Kira would overpower Shinn, steal his season and save the World.

3) It was way too predictable. Perhaps Gundam series is suppose to follow the tradition of the male boy character saving the world and marrying the princess but at least other Gundam series had some sort of their unique bland in their shows. For example, the only time I can remember Kira ever losing is that one battle with Shinn in Season 2. I always knew Kira would reign victorious or come flying down and save the ship. And the plot just builds up to make it obvious that Flay will die. (Did anyone not predict this?)

4) Did not have a good message. Yes, we are told that Kira is a ultimate coordinator (basically a superior human) and Shinn is just a coordinator. The fact that Kira gets labeled as an 'ultimate coordinator’ and makes Kira beat everything just gives the subliminal message that “superiority beats hard work” Hard-work is what Shinn is because he wasn’t blessed with superior ultimate genes or an overpowered gundam like Kira’s Strike Freedom. And when Kira takes down Shinn, it just tells the viewers that "People who are born as superior / ultimate will win in the end"

5) Was not exciting. This might seem like a weak argument but it ties in with the "too predictable" argument. Because we already assumed that Kira would win / save everything, it made things so much more boring. If our main character was someone weak, and a character like Char or Zechs existed that would be a temporary protagonist, and would save the day instead, it would make the viewers much less expectant of the main character. But sadly, we saw him as the winner before the battle ended which killed the excitement. In Gundam Wing, you're about to shit your pants when the colony is about to crash on Earth. Because it actually made you feel like it might happen or that the show really convinced you how working for your ideals helps you become a better person. Seed did not have such attachments.

6) Lack of proper villians and support characters. Athrun was hyped in the beginning to have a major impact because a ton of flashbacks were about him and he was the best friend to Kira, but he just died off as unimporant through the end. He was just a guy to take care of Cagalli and friend Kira. He had so much potential too.
Lacus seemed like so un-human and felt like she was soley there just to be the main character's love interest

Rey Za Burrel/Durandal sucked as villians. Although their views differed from Kira's, the last battle between them just seemed too forced. There was no build-up that it was destined for them to battle. You don't even have a proper villian, Durandal didn't even battle with mobile suits. In Wing, you can feel that emotion and that desperate conflict of ideas between Hero and Zechs. Even Gundam 00 had a better villain.

7). Gundam in General: After watching lots of different Gundam series, it becomes a habit to compare the role of Gundams. By that, I mean how exactly is Gundam viewed/defined as in each series? Is it symbolized as a God or displayed simply as a war weapon? How does the pilot relate to its Gundam? What are the specifics that deem to be the requirement or the consquence of piloting the Gundam? In SEED, there was not much in-depth analysis on Gundam even though the show was called Gundam SEED.

For example, in Wing, they talk about how piloting the Wing Zero has great stress on the pilot, phyiscally and mentally. They talk about response time of the suit and even compare the defense/offense capability through the introduction of Vayeate and Mercurius. You can constantly find the pilots talking to its gundams, giving personification to the machines, placing more importance on them.

Even in the recent series, Gundam 00, you can see how it talks about the functions of each gundams more specifically (For example, when Tieria mentions the "hidden arms" of his gundam) and you can see how much importance on Gundam when each faction of the Earth are trying to hunt down to acquire their own Gundam to increase its own military power.

In SEED, you don't see that very much. Sure, they will talk about some unique function of Gundam but the show seems to not place much importance on Gundams. The whole show should revolve around Gundam because thats what it should be about, but sadly SEED fails on this as well.


It's been more than a few years since I've watched Seed so I might not remember a lot of things. But my argument still stands

Now, the good points about Seed

+ Great Music. Gundam 00 and Seed has some of the best intro/ending/fighting music there is to offer.

+ Nice Gundams. Gundam designs constantly become more sophisticated and stylish as the series grow. Although Seed's Gundams are very overpowered, the designs and function is very lovable. For example, Strike Freedom has an incredible number of ways to shoot a beam, and the "fang" system it has is a must to a top-tier gundam imo. I loved the designs for Blitz gundam since blackcolored gundams are still rare, and Athrun's Gundam was badass as well. SEED has had Gundams with great designs and newer capabilities that we have not seen before, but the sophistication and design of the Gundam evolves as the show evolves so therefore it cannot really be credited to Gundam Seed alone. It's just that after a certain Gundam show ends, a new Gundam show might borrow the ideas and designs of Gundams from previous generations to implement in its show. I remember seeing the idea of "fangs" on a Gundam as far back as Gundam X.