[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Sure I understand that idea, but it does not lower the count to 16 + Erika because this is the device that is used with the red. Guaranteeing that Erika does not exist among the 17 is therefore the only possible outcome. So regardless of whether Shannon and Kanon are the same person or not they always count as two people.

Only if you assume that there is a secret code to red text that defines every word to mean exactly the same thing all the time regardless of context. EP5 seems to have disproved this by saying (in effect), "Kinzo exists on the island", "Kinzo does not exist on the island".

In other words, this is back to saying that red is a literal truth, and is why solving the game based simply on red text is probably not going to give you any definite solution.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

It doesn't say the word people. It just uses the counter for people. Since furniture isn't a standard word, it would probably be legitimate to use that counter to count them. I've spoken with a few native Japanese speakers, and they seemed to think it a legitimate use of the language.

But chrono I wanted to ask you since a while. Isn't it also true that what Beatrice and Battler used at the end of EP6 is also just a "人"?

Of course if you see it as an answer to Erika's red, Erika indeed used "人間".

But here we get to a big problem. If they are referring to the very same thing Erika said, then there's no possible way to get around the contradiction. Erika said it's 18, Battler and Beatrice say it's 17. And both of them said it in red.

What kind of trick is Ryuukishi pulling?

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

What kind of trick is Ryuukishi pulling?

...time flowing backwards.

No, seriously.

[Jan-Poo]

That doesn't sound very original after playing Braid.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Only if you assume that there is a secret code to red text that defines every word to mean exactly the same thing all the time regardless of context. EP5 seems to have disproved this by saying (in effect), "Kinzo exists on the island", "Kinzo does not exist on the island".

The context is clearly that everyone of those people are dead at a specific time. I think the explanation for those Kinzo reds is different since it's being used to trap someone. Shannon and Kanon have been counted as two people this far. There is no reason why they would suddenly only count as among the 16 for the sake of your own theory. It's not about the red being literal it's that this device has always been used with the red regardless of the situation.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But chrono I wanted to ask you since a while. Isn't it also true that what Beatrice and Battler used at the end of EP6 is also just a "人"?

Of course if you see it as an answer to Erika's red, Erika indeed used "人間".

But here we get to a big problem. If they are referring to the very same thing Erika said, then there's no possible way to get around the contradiction. Erika said it's 18, Battler and Beatrice say it's 17. And both of them said it in red.

What kind of trick is Ryuukishi pulling?

Red text from EP3:
以上、15人は死亡。

Red text from EP6
…………申し訳ないが、
そなたを迎えても、
１７人だ。

By the way that EP3 red text included a note:
※小説版で黒字に変換されている
- In the novel this line was changed to black characters.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

It doesn't say the word people. It just uses the counter for people. Since furniture isn't a standard word, it would probably be legitimate to use that counter to count them. I've spoken with a few native Japanese speakers, and they seemed to think it a legitimate use of the language.

You know, we haven't exactly established that furniture should not be counted as humans. If you're going by that definition, then please subtract Genji in your theory as well, whom we have established as having admitting to being furniture in one scene.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But chrono I wanted to ask you since a while. Isn't it also true that what Beatrice and Battler used at the end of EP6 is also just a "人"?

Of course if you see it as an answer to Erika's red, Erika indeed used "人間".

But here we get to a big problem. If they are referring to the very same thing Erika said, then there's no possible way to get around the contradiction. Erika said it's 18, Battler and Beatrice say it's 17. And both of them said it in red.

What kind of trick is Ryuukishi pulling?

Spoiler for size:

I've just said it. Red is a literal truth. You can say something in red if it is true. Depending on the context, it's possible to get conflicting red texts.

Also, I'd like to point out that the two reds in question are used in different contexts.

EP3: Here are 15 'people'. All of them are dead.
EP6: There are 17 'people' on the island.

In the first one, it gives 15 names, then counts them up. It does not say whether they are human beings. In the second one, it's giving the answer to the question "what is the number of humans on the island", since Erika mentioned that in her line.

I think the real point here is that red isn't a good way to solve the game. If we go by the rock, paper, scissors explanation of the gold, red, and blue truths, then red is excellent at killing gold truths, but little else. Since blue truths can get around red by using all kinds of cheap wordplay games, the red can only be relied upon to give general hints about the game. In my opinion, the gold truth is a better way to get at the game. In other words, enough hints must be shown during the scenes of the game to make it solvable, without relying on the red text at all. This is required of Knox.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But here we get to a big problem. If they are referring to the very same thing Erika said, then there's no possible way to get around the contradiction. Erika said it's 18, Battler and Beatrice say it's 17. And both of them said it in red.

I'm not sure Erika would be able to say in red that there are eighteen people on the island. She used "１８人目の人間" (eighteenth human).

So it's possible that Erika is the eighteenth person on the island but there is now only 17.

[Jan-Poo]

I'm not sure that what you said answered my question.
You said that reds can be conflicting depending on the context and I agree that much.
But you can only say that Beatrice and Battler last red refered to humans only if the context is exactly the same context as Erika's last red.

Which means either the context is the same, and then you have two conflicting reds
or the context is different, and then you can't tell what's the "17" Battler and Beatrice are talking about.

I'm not sure Erika would be able to say in red that there are eighteen people on the island. She used "１８人目の人間" (eighteenth human).

So it's possible that Erika is the eighteenth person on the island but there is now only 17.

It doesn't matter. If Erika said "18th human" then Battler and Beatrice said "17th human" if they were referring to what Erika said. If they were not, then what were they talking about? They certainly didn't say "human".

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That doesn't sound very original after playing Braid.

Actually, I think this actually might be it.

Erika says that "all actions occur simultaneously", which is clearly not what we usually mean by a time stop. In one episode of The Real Ghostbusters which is otherwise not very memorable, Ray Stantz utters a particularly apt description of time: "Time is that which stops everything from happening simultaneously." (paraphrased from memory) The time stop on the guest room seems to behave in a similar manner -- once time is turned off, actions happen simultaneously.

All of them. They're described as happening in some kind of order, but do they really? I expect that a consistent interpretation of that bizarre state possible where Kanon rescues Battler, enters the room, doesn't leave it, and yet doesn't exist in it anyway.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I'm not sure that what you said answered my question.
You said that red can be conflicting depending on the context and I agree that much.
But you can only say that Beatrice and Battler last red refered to humans only if the context is exactly the same context as Erika's last red.

Which means either the context is the same, and then you have two conflicting reds
or the context is different, and then you can't tell what's the "17" Battler and Beatrice are talking about.

Ah, yeah, that's the one bit that I'm still not completely satisfied with. Not because it's impossible or unfair, but because it's a bit out of the blue.

What happens if we rephrase the last lines like this:
I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!
Sorry but...there are only 18 humans if you count corpses (namely, Kinzo's corpse).

If this is said implicitly, then the reds don't contradict, and the flow of conversation even matches. But it requires us to assume that this is what they meant, and left it as a riddle to preserve the secret a bit longer.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It doesn't matter. If Erika said "18th human" then Battler and Beatrice said "17th human" if they were referring to what Erika said. If they were not, then what were they talking about? They certainly didn't say "human".

Erika said she is the 18th human.
Beato and Battler said there are 17 people.
They never said "17th".

All of the above are facts.

[Jan-Poo]

Implicit assumptions...

I can only really accept them if they are obvious and to be expected.... like in previous confirmed cases. This case however is very ambiguous...

One of my original explanation is that Erika's red wasn't valid. Like the reds that were interrupted in EP4. However there is no sign of that happening in EP6... and she completed her sentence...

Beato and Battler said there are 17 people.
They never said "17th".

All of the above are facts.

You don't get it. As chronotrig many times pointed out that "hito" is merely a counter used for persons.

Basically it goes like this:

Erika: "I'm the 18th human"

Beatrice and Battler: "Sorry but that's 17"


thinking that Battler and Beatrice explicitly said "17 persons" is wrong.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Implicit assumptions...

I can only really accept them if they are obvious and to be expected.... like in previous confirmed cases. This case however is very ambiguous...

Well, that's the point. Remember how it was said that they both seemed to know what the other was planning to say, even though it was a mystery to the reader? That leaves an opening for an implicit assumption shared between the two groups that we haven't been told about.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Erika said she is the 18th human.

You realize though that this is a story written by someone whose name suggests she's the "19th human". "18th human" could just be a title for her character and that would be why her red was painted over.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You don't get it. As chronotrig many times pointed out that "hito" is merely a counter used for persons.

Basically it goes like this:

Erika: "I'm the 18th human"

Beatrice and Battler: "Sorry but that's 17"


thinking that Battler and Beatrice explicitly said "17 persons" is wrong.

No, anyone who translates that as "17th human" is wrong. Anyway, there no point in arguing about this when I'm positive that it cannot be translated as "17th person" or "17th human".

By the way, "hito" is no the correct reading for 人 in "１７人だ。". Hitori, futari, sannin, yonnin, etc...
I know you already know this so I have no idea what you are arguing about.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Judoh

You realize though that this is a story written by someone whose name suggests she's the "19th human". "18th human" could just be a title for her character and that would be why her red was painted over.

Wait... Hachijou Tooya is 八城十八 ... which makes her the 18th character. When I saw that, I thought she picked that pseudonym because she fancied herself the 18th person on Rokkenjima. You know how fans get so obsessed sometimes... 8) Is there a name for that kind of obsession where you start deluding yourself into think you are one of the people you've been researching/reading about? Holodeck Syndrome?

By the way... that makes Amakusa Juuza the 13th person somehow.... How, I wouldn't understand.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

By the way... that makes Amakusa Juuza the 13th person somehow.... How, I wouldn't understand.

Counting from Kinzo as 1 along the Ushiromiya ranking ladder, that's the number allocated for Maria's father.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Counting from Kinzo as 1 along the Ushiromiya ranking ladder, that's the number allocated for Maria's father.

It's different if your going by order of who was introduced in Episode 1. I'm not sure, but I think Shannon is either introduced 11th, 12th, or 13th. It's been awhile since I read it.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Ssol

I've seen that B0mb theory posted before but I'm pretty sure that is just a guess based on the original Taiwan theory. I don't have a link to the original though.

The wiki(japanese) entry is here:
http://umineco.info/?考察投稿抜粋/碑文台湾説
There is no mention of bombs or B0mb anywhere on the page.

Personally, I first read the Taiwan theory on here and translated that page here.

If the original Taiwan theory did in fact contain the B0mb part then my apologies, but I would appreciate a link to the source.

This is what I have regarding that. Keep in mind that I do not know who posted this. It's just a copy/paste of what someone else posted on this forum and I don't have a link to any source. But it describes the B0mb part at the end in this one.

Spoiler for space:

How about some EPITAPH? You guys should love this.

The hometown refers to a city in Taiwan, Danshui. The subway station right below Danshui Station is a station called 唭哩 岸 (Beitou Qilian Cili-an). The next sentence says: In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of. In the(其) village(里), look for the shore(岸) the two (口口) will tell you of. So this theory should be right so far. The key is 'Qilian'.

Then,

At the first twilight, you shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key

At the tenth twilight, the Golden Land is mentioned (黄金の郷). 郷 is usually read as 'Sato' but more rarely as 'kyou'. 京, which means ten quadrillion, is also read as 'kyou'. This 'quadrillion' sounds similar to our secret mansion, Kuwadorian.
So sacrifice the six chosen by the key - 'Qilian' - from Quadrillion.

-u-dr--l-o- is left.

Then tear apart the those who are close, which means to separate d and r.
dOOr, which becomes door.

What Ange found in Kumasawa's son's house proves this right - 'This door is opened only at probability of a quadrillion to one'
'Door' and 'quadrillion' both appears in this sentence.
(I'm not too sure about the validity of this statement, but the following interpretations are more convincing)

Then does this actually mean a real 'door'?

Erika mentioned anagrams. Door can be 'rood'. The holy Rood, which means Jesus Christ impaled on the cross. The very first title screen of EP1 shows the chapel, on top of which is a cross with Jesus Christ on it.

Thus, the 'rood' obviously indicates the chapel where it is located.

Another thing with 'tear apart the those who are close'

引き裂, tear apart, can also mean 'to rive' in English.
One can put 'rive' instead of 'OO' between d and r.
Then it becomes d rive r, driver. One can gouge with a driver, right?
The 'driver' may mean the Seven Stakes of Purgatory (they are quite similar in appearance, no?) In EP3, 2 out of 7 stakes do not appear. This may be because two were used, one each for Eva and Rosa. Mammon also said in EP4, 'Then it is only I, not the Seven Sisters!' (Do not remember this part, so translation may again be incorrect) This may be because Mammon was used as a 'driver' instead of a stake.

Back to '-u-dr--l-o-'. This can form Lord U, Lord Ushiromiya, the honorable name.
One can read Ushiromiya(うしろみや) not as (右代宮) but (後ろ見や).
Now this is incorrect, but if one takes from each and reads as 後ろ宮, this means 'behind the shrine'.

Shrine also indicates the chapel.

Supporting this theory:
Maria, in EP2, interprets English written on the chapel (sneering at Battler). The English is suspiciously similar to what Ange found at Kumasawa's son's house.
So the way to Kuwadorian is at the chapel. More specifically, the 'door' is the chapel door.

But the chapel door can be opened with a key. We should be looking for the chapel that cannot be opened (mentioned by Genji in EP2, this author says), Kuwadorian.

So how do we 'open' the door?

Erika says in EP5, "As expected, ......gouging, meant that. Again, my reasoning was correct." (Another random translation by me, as EP5 translation isn't out yet)

Now here, Lord U, the 4~8th twilights, and driver are used.

It goes like this.

L At the fourth twilight, gouge the head and kill.
O At the fifth twilight, gouge the chest and kill.
R At the sixth twilight, gouge the belly and kill.
D At the seventh twilight, gouge the knee and kill.
U At the eighth twilight, gouge the leg and kill.

Left
O
Right
Down
Up

or

Up
Left O Right
Down

O is the keyhole of the chapel door. Push that driver in, according to the epitaph.
The 4~8th twilights remind one of a person's body.
A person has one head, one chest, one belly, two knees, and two legs.

Left O
O -------
Right │
Down ↙ ↘
Up │ │

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a body. So according to LORD U, we should go
Left, O, Right, Down, Down, Up, Up, with the driver.

Thus, the door to Kuwadorian opens.

In EP5, right after Battler completes the eight twilight, he sees Kinzo's ghost.
Then Erika looks at where he's glancing at and says, "Is it that way?" or something similar.

This means that nothing special immediately happens after completing the eight twilight. This is mentioned in the game itself.

There are no special locked rooms in the chapel, said Beato in red.
So what we've done with LORD U must open a door elsewhere, like that well in EP4 where Kanon died.

Knox article 8. There cannot be solutions with unpresented evidence.

When Battler went to that well in EP4, it was covered with a steel lid and would not open. This may be a clue.

Remember that 後ろ宮 from before. This means 'behind the chapel'.

Erika probably intended to go behind the chapel.
But Battler, who saw the ghost of Kinzo, steered a little astray and went 'behind the Ushiromiya mansion', where the well was (In EP4, Krauss says the well is behind the Ushiromiya mansion')

Anyway, in EP4, Kyrie and others climbed out the well quite easily. The well may have a ladder or may not be that deep. So, if the 'driver' lets the steel lid be opened, one may go to Kuwadorian quite easily. And to that enormous mountain of gold.

But the epitaph isn't over yet.

Midnight, in English, is often called the 'witching hour'.
And midnight is often associated with the hour 0.
In EP1, when it became midnight (hour 0, witching hour), Beatrice's butterflies appeared. This signifies game over.

At the ninth twilight, the Witch shall live again and none shall be left to live.
Then the 'witching hour' - when the Witch shall live aagain - is probably hour 0.
Let's go one step further and think witch = 0.

(The author goes on to explain the 'One shall be' parts, but I think this part is quite self-explanatory)

Let's examine Sleep peacefully, my most beloved witch, Beatrice.
Let's replace witch with 0, as we theorized that witch=0 before.

(Now in this English translation, it says 'my MOST beloved witch, Beatrice', but the author translated this part into 'my beloved witch, Beatrice')

My beloved witch, Beatrice becomes
My beloved 0, Beatrice
MB0B

flip this, and as an anagram we have

BOMB

So, my beloved witch Beatrice is BOMB.

Perhaps Eva-Beatrice attacking Beatrice's heart with the Siestas may be in reality Eva trying to dismantle the bomb. More importantly, in the EP4 tea party, Beatrice did not refute the 'small bombs theory' with the red. Perhaps this is related to 'what Beato hid till the end' that Lambdadelta mentioned.

But this is no small bomb - this must be a bomb that can blow up an extremely large area, buildings and lands and all.