One Piece - Chapter 781 [manga]

[aliasxn]

I don't see the issue here... It's ok for Donflamingo to use a hoard of henchmen to chip away at Luffy, but Luffy can't get help? If he doesn't overpower his opponents then his victories will have no meaning?

Btw, Blackbeard and his entire crew got wtfpwnd by Magellan at Impel Down, and would all have died if Shiryu hadn't appeared out of fucking nowhere and saved them for no real good reason. Does that make him less of a Yonkou too?

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by aliasxn

I don't see the issue here... It's ok for Donflamingo to use a hoard of henchmen to chip away at Luffy, but Luffy can't get help? If he doesn't overpower his opponents then his victories will have no meaning?

Btw, Blackbeard and his entire crew got wtfpwnd by Magellan at Impel Down, and would all have died if Shiryu hadn't appeared out of fucking nowhere and saved them for no real good reason. Does that make him less of a Yonkou too?

To be fair I don't think the Blackbeard one is a good example. They wouldn't have casually approached someone like Magellan if they didn't have the antidote. The whole point of approaching him like that was so he could try to one shot them and wouldn't use an excessive amount of poison that antidotes wouldn't do anything for. (Unless of course the manga/anime changed up events and they didn't run into Shiryuu first. In which case feel free to ignore my random ramblings ).

I agree with the overall message though. It's not like Luffy hasn't been chipped down a bit (though partly it's his own damn fault like with Bellamy). Getting a bit of help isn't the worst thing in the world.

In the end I get people wanting to see Luffy take that step forward on the power scale of the series. He's in the new world, we've got yonkou on the horizon and an eventual rematch with Akainu, but patience is a virtue. The one thing I hope is no more time skips since the last time we did that we got odd character re-designs, some of which I still don't like. (That darn scar over Zoro's eye drives me nuts every time I see it).

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

That attack took him completely by surprised and it was pure luck that he found someone willing to get him an antidote.

I don't buy that for a second. He wanted Shiryu to join his crew and counted on him saving them. He gambled everyone's lives including his own because he's crazy and proved it to Shiryu, who then joined his crew because he wanted to have a leader who is willing to do things like that.

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

I agree that the executives aren't weaklings. I think 1 on 1 they would beat all the SHs except luffy and zoro. And I don't think people would call the SHs weaklings as easily.

If Zoro can beat Pica that easily, there is no way Sanji wouldn't defeat him either. And I also think Franky would have a pretty good shot at beating Diamante. Except for Usopp and Nami, pretty much all the SHs would beat all the non top executives, the way I see it.

[noktown]

When the Straw Hat crew runs into someone with insane ability, then they're just weak , when it's Blackbeard/Whitebeard it's not because he's weak, it's because they "enter any excuse here".

C'mon, there are many OP abilities in one piece that even Yonkos could have trouble dealing with, especially lethal abilities like Caesar when you don't even know what's killing you, or Magellan's that has immediate effect, there's no one who could be in those places and be like "Ha, I knew you'd do that", because that would be Kubo's style, you can't counter deadly poison or gas without knowing that your opponent has that ability, and once Luffy realized what ability Caesar had, it was a one sided fight.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

I don't buy that for a second. He wanted Shiryu to join his crew and counted on him saving them. He gambled everyone's lives including his own because he's crazy and proved it to Shiryu, who then joined his crew because he wanted to have a leader who is willing to do things like that.

You do realize that Blackbeard didn't even meet Magellan before their "encounter" at Impel Down ? Also he didn't realize what Magellan has done to them that's why he kept saying : "It hurts, what is it ?".

Yes even the big guys get caught by surprise, that's why I don't understand why people are so sensitive when the same thing happens to Luffy and the crew, that doesn't make the weaker, it's normal for One Pece.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by noktown

You do realize that Blackbeard didn't even meet Magellan before their "encounter" at Impel Down ? Also he didn't realize what Magellan has done to them that's why he kept saying : "It hurts, what is it ?".

Yes even the big guys get caught by surprise, that's why I don't understand why people are so sensitive when the same thing happens to Luffy and the crew, that doesn't make the weaker, it's normal for One Pece.

You do realize that Blackbeard was a warlord at that time? He had access to that information just like he had access to impel down. You think someone who researched the DFs as part of his plan to be an emperor, wouldn't take the time to research what his obstacles would be when he tried to steal half of his needed crew from the most secure prison in the world? No way. He knew all about Impel Down before he got there. He was just putting on an act.

[noktown]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

You do realize that Blackbeard was a warlord at that time? He had access to that information just like he had access to impel down. You think someone who researched the DFs as part of his plan to be an emperor, wouldn't take the time to research what his obstacles would be when he tried to steal half of his needed crew from the most secure prison in the world? No way. He knew all about Impel Down before he got there. He was just putting on an act.

*More denial excuses*, because obviously Blackbeard knows that Shiryu has the antidote, the guy that was locked down in Impel down.

Oh yeah Luffy also fainted on purpose, it was also all part of his plan, Luffy is the Aizen of One Piece, he's the guy who's aiming to become the Pirate King afterall, don't you think he would research his enemies ?

That's what you sound like, as if anyone who's recognized as a "big gun" is flawless.

[FlareKnight]

In the end here's hoping this turns into a great showdown. I've kind of missed some of the great fights that Luffy has gotten into since the current arcs have gone on. Still waiting for something on the level of the fights against Crocodile or Lucci.

Originally Posted by noktown

*More denial excuses*, because obviously Blackbeard knows that Shiryu has the antidote, the guy that was locked down in Impel down.

Oh yeah Luffy also fainted on purpose, it was also all part of his plan, Luffy is the Aizen of One Piece, he's the guy who's aiming to become the Pirate King afterall, don't you think he would research his enemies ?

That's what you sound like, as if anyone who's recognized as a "big gun" is flawless.

Where the heck are you pulling Luffy into this from?

You think that Blackbeard and Luffy approach the situations they are in from the same perspective? It makes perfect sense for Blackbeard to do his research before going into Impel Down.

I have to presume this is entire argument is sarcasm I'm not picking up because it's just silly otherwise. Blackbeard ran into Shiryu before he ran into Magellan and since Shiryu was fine later it's clear they didn't have a huge brawl. So it's entirely plausible he again already knew about the threat and had the antidote.

There's a difference between presuming a character can't be caught off guard and having solid reasoning for why they weren't caught offguard in a specific situation. I think Blackbeard being a hammy actor and acting like he was shocked at Magellan's ability is far more likely than him walking up to him like a moron and getting sniped by an attack without him or anyone on his crew reacting to it.

I get the idea behind the whole debate, but I just think it doesn't fit one bit into this situation. A better example should be out there than one easily countered like this.

[golgo13]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

If Zoro can beat Pica that easily, there is no way Sanji wouldn't defeat him either. And I also think Franky would have a pretty good shot at beating Diamante. Except for Usopp and Nami, pretty much all the SHs would beat all the non top executives, the way I see it.

Difficult to judge whether Sanji would have been able to defeat Pica simply because Zoro did so handidly. The strong look weak compared to stronger opponents. In any case Sanji may have had a harder time and Zoro could have been a better match up.

Sanji will get his time, maybe he has already defeated Pekoms and Tamago. As of now (180+ chapters post time skip) he's had a tougher time with opponents than Luffy and Zoro.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

You do realize that Blackbeard was a warlord at that time? He had access to that information just like he had access to impel down. You think someone who researched the DFs as part of his plan to be an emperor, wouldn't take the time to research what his obstacles would be when he tried to steal half of his needed crew from the most secure prison in the world? No way. He knew all about Impel Down before he got there. He was just putting on an act.

Why would you assume warlords would have access to information on impel down? They wouldn't need to know the details about the prison so i don't see why the WG would bother to share it with them. Heck, just to allow Hancock to visit the prison, they had to require her to be handcuffed the entire time. WG uses the warlords, but they don't exactly trust them. Aside from Kuma and Doffy, i don't see the WG being THAT cooperate with them

Really, Blackbeard is no evil genius. He schemes and can make a shrewd move, but his intelligence is pretty mediocre at best. Hanging with whitebeard to find his devil fruit, laying low, becoming a warlord to access impel down; it doesn't take a genius to come up with these plans.

i'd even bring to question his faith in the darkness fruit. He got it too counter other devil fruits, but it comes with a serious draw back of allowing its user to take more damage from attacks and there are other methods to fight devil fruit users like using Haki. Heck, there are many fighters in the new world who either don't even use devil fruits, or are not so reliant on them. Honestly i feel like Whitebeard showed that best when Blackbeard fought him; Blackbeard felt so confident when he blocked his quake attack only to get immediately smashed by Whitebeard's raw physical strength. Blackbeard looked pretty pathetic there. Its not a bad devil fruit, but its not as useful as others.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Really, Blackbeard is no evil genius. He schemes and can make a shrewd move, but his intelligence is pretty mediocre at best. Hanging with whitebeard to find his devil fruit, laying low, becoming a warlord to access impel down; it doesn't take a genius to come up with these plans.

it also doesn't take a genius to know who the warden of impel down is... i don't know why you're talking about geniuses. I never said i thought blackbeard was a particularly smart character. I'm basing my opinion on the fact that he did take the time to research DFs.

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by golgo13

Difficult to judge whether Sanji would have been able to defeat Pica simply because Zoro did so handidly. The strong look weak compared to stronger opponents. In any case Sanji may have had a harder time and Zoro could have been a better match up.

Yeah, Zoro was probably a better match up, but the sheer ease with which he defeated Pica tells us that Sanji could have beaten him as well.

[noktown]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Where the heck are you pulling Luffy into this from?

Go back one page and look whom I responded to.

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

You think that Blackbeard and Luffy approach the situations they are in from the same perspective? It makes perfect sense for Blackbeard to do his research before going into Impel Down.

Blackbeard is a pirate, yes as a Shichibukai he was technically working under the WG, but why would anyone give him such information ? Considering that such info would only be available to higher ranks, and even in real life Army, only people that have anything to do with the job have the information needed to deal with that job(and depending on your rank you have more information available), not some random guy that has nothing to do with it. And Blackbeard had nothing to do with Impel Down to have such sensitive information revealed to him.

Yes it is sensitive, because revealing Magellan's ability is basically a key to destroying him and seizing Impel Down.

And during the first Shiryu and Blacbeared's encounter, he only said he'd consider BB's offer to join, but didn't until he saved BB from Magellan's poison, which was all pure luck.

*snip*

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by noktown

Blackbeard is a pirate, yes as a Shichibukai he was technically working under the WG, but why would anyone give him such information ?

why are you assuming that information must be given to people? ever heard of spying or stealing? you said yourself blackbeard is a pirate. as a warlord he could easily put himself in positions to learn a lot of WG info and secrets.

Considering that such info would only be available to higher ranks ...
Yes it is sensitive, because revealing Magellan's ability is basically a key to destroying him and seizing Impel Down.

you're forgetting that people (including prisoners) have come and gone from impel down. jimbei was only there temporarily for instance. lots of people know magellan's power. his power isn't overwhelming because its a secret. it's overwhelming because it's extremely hard to fight against whether you have knowledge of it or not.

[imza]

I'm not sure there is an textual evidence to indicate that BB purposely let himself and his crew get hit by Magellan. Their response to it indicates they were taken completely by surprise. If anything, BB brushes it off as part of his view of the world and fate.

Moreover, I'm not even sure BB could easily take Magellan even now. If he got hit even once by the poison, it would be over for him (Unless the antidote is permanent or Haki protects you from poison).

[itachi-san314]

^Do you honestly think Blackbeard's strategy for dealing with powerful opponents is to have his crew line up in a straight line and all get 1-shotted at the same time? And to not even try to use his DF?

We see him absorb magellan's poison blockade to get through the door at a different time, so it's not like his Dark Fruit couldn't absorb the poison

[Nicaea]

Originally Posted by aliasxn

I don't see the issue here... It's ok for Donflamingo to use a hoard of henchmen to chip away at Luffy, but Luffy can't get help? If he doesn't overpower his opponents then his victories will have no meaning?

Glad that someone sees the discrepancy.

Originally Posted by ZGoten

Yeah, Zoro was probably a better match up, but the sheer ease with which he defeated Pica tells us that Sanji could have beaten him as well.

That would be the case if powerlevels were absolute. "If x person can defeat y, then person z can do it too" is hardly right, especially when anime/manga has been putting the middle finger up to such lines of thought for years. We don't know if Sanji has BH but we do suspect he has. We also dont know with how much ease Sanji pulverizes rock. We can expect that his kicks pack quite some power, but we can't expect that his kicks have the same effect as DD; whose kicks slice through rock with ease, partially due to the ito ito no mi.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

why are you assuming that information must be given to people? ever heard of spying or stealing? you said yourself blackbeard is a pirate. as a warlord he could easily put himself in positions to learn a lot of WG info and secrets.

you're forgetting that people (including prisoners) have come and gone from impel down. jimbei was only there temporarily for instance. lots of people know magellan's power. his power isn't overwhelming because its a secret. it's overwhelming because it's extremely hard to fight against whether you have knowledge of it or not.

You can't exactly say that he is wrong, as both reasons presented depend on off screen moments. BB could have verified Magellan's power, and yet he also could not have done that. Presenting what you think is logicall for the sake of a convenient argument is hardly a winning argument.

That being said, what your argument has over him is BB's character: Along with Law, BB is one of the only people with the name D to be somewhat uncharacteristic. Unlike most people bearing the name D, they scheme. Whilst BB is as reckless as most D with his constant gambling with fate, he does plan ahead. Furthermore, unlike Luffy and Ace, he retreatswhen it becomes too risky (he showed a moment of fear towards WB when the latter hit him and fled from Marineford when the situation had no further gain for him. He also fled from Akainu in NW, leaving Bonnie behind as a present). But even then, it's only an argument suggesting the possibility.

Originally Posted by imza

I'm not sure there is an textual evidence to indicate that BB purposely let himself and his crew get hit by Magellan. Their response to it indicates they were taken completely by surprise. If anything, BB brushes it off as part of his view of the world and fate.

Moreover, I'm not even sure BB could easily take Magellan even now. If he got hit even once by the poison, it would be over for him (Unless the antidote is permanent or Haki protects you from poison).

I too got from those scenes that BB was testing fate (again). In any case, it would suggest that BB took a wager either way.

Well currently BB has two DF's and mastery aside, he could stomp Magellan with the gura gura no mi. Furthermore, once BB touches Magellan, it's over for the latter. That being said, Ace managed to burn BB so in theory BB's yami yami no mi can't block the effect of DF's.

[imza]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

^Do you honestly think Blackbeard's strategy for dealing with powerful opponents is to have his crew line up in a straight line and all get 1-shotted at the same time? And to not even try to use his DF?

We see him absorb magellan's poison blockade to get through the door at a different time, so it's not like his Dark Fruit couldn't absorb the poison

I don't think BB had a strategy at that moment, he got caught by surprise, plain and simple. Considering that BB is not the most careful at times (he got hit by Ace and Luffy by surprise as well), it's not hard to believe he got caught by surprise by the poison attack.

Also it depends on how much poison Magellan releases, his crazy poison attack he did against Luffy and crew at the end maybe too much for BB to handle, especially if BB is being careless (that is what Whitebeard said was his weakness). He would have to use the earth quake or black hole powers from afar and early on.

Originally Posted by Nicaea

I too got from those scenes that BB was testing fate (again). In any case, it would suggest that BB took a wager either way.

Well currently BB has two DF's and mastery aside, he could stomp Magellan with the gura gura no mi. Furthermore, once BB touches Magellan, it's over for the latter. That being said, Ace managed to burn BB so in theory BB's yami yami no mi can't block the effect of DF's.

I think you misunderstood me, I don't think BB was testing fate, he was just genuinely caught by surprise. It was after the fact when they were saved that he interpreted his luck of getting saved as part of fate. Just as Luffy is often caught by surprise and just plays it off after the fact.

I have no doubt that in the actual story, considering BB is probably the end boss and now a emperor, he would beat Magellan by story plot alone.

However, he really shouldn't be able to if Oda was consistent. Touching Magellan, if what we have seen is true, would be deadly, even if immediately afterwards Magellan could not create more poison, the poison already out will still be there.