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[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

As I said many times in this thread, democracy is hard to implement. The Egyptians have heard of Democracy, and understood superficial elements of it. But their attempts at creating a democratic country collapsed, because they haven't studied how to build Democracy from the ground up.

They had a revolution. That's the easy part. Any nation can have a revolution. It is also easy to build a theocracy/military dictatorship/monarchy, because all three systems just have a few people making all the decisions.

But Democracy? That require the people of the country rule themselves. And unless everyone in the country understand that, they can't get what they wanted.

I wish there is some sort of "Democracy Kit", that you can just hand to these well-meaning people. But it seems there is no such easy way.

As long as western countries aren't able to get over their own problems with democracy, there is no way they can teach other countries. The western countries usually only have 3 deciding powers:

1. The ideology of the big political party that is governing at the moment
2. The ideology of the other big political party that is in the opposition
3. The lobbyists

all of these can be words with "-cracy" at the end, but none of them are a "DEMO-cracy" (democracy = greek for "popular sovereignty")

So why do western countries not have "revolutions" all the time too? Because of stability. "1st world countries" have a much better and balanced economy, better infrastructure and better climate than egypt and other arab nations (excluding the emirates). The crime rate is also contrasting.

But even a good, elected government is not able to change the bad situation in the near-east countries in 1-4 election periods. However compared to dictatorships, the people are all allowed to voice their own opinion... and soon someone has to be "held responsible" for the situation that has been there for decades. Blaming the Americans all the time bores a lot of people after some time because they cannot touch Americans aside from attacking American tourists or using Al-Qaeda. So then they need the next scapegoat... and that happens to be, you guessed right, the government they (or at least most of them) chose by themselves! First it was Mubarak... but now the people realized that the promise of a good after-life won't help them with their life right now, as well... but there are still some who thinks it does, but the military does not agree with them... And that is the situation that we are at now... TO BE CONTINUED!

[Ridwan]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

The army was right to oust him, but was wrong to shoot civilians.

Not at all. Thanks to them Egypt is sure to go straight into basket case now.

Then again Ikhwanul Muslimin is quite unlucky to have Mursi.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Ridwan

Not at all. Thanks to them Egypt is sure to go straight into basket case now.

Then again Ikhwanul Muslimin is quite unlucky to have Mursi.

If their ideology isn't based on a religion and set to be more adaptive with the modern world, they would have more credibility.

[Ridwan]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

If their ideology isn't based on a religion and set to be more adaptive with the modern world, they would have more credibility.

Oh god you're completely lost there, buddy. It's not about their ideology. It's about how Morsi government failed to address the most pressing concerns of Egyptian people and instead too busy at scoring ideological and political points in society and parliament respectively and then failed at both because he's a retarded douchebag. It still doesn't excuse military coup, however, not only that because it ices more feces on their already cesspool reputation for overthrowing a democratically elected government no matter how much of a failure it was, they also successfully inflamed Islamic reactionarism that now has all the reason to denounce democracy altogether. People should stop seeing secular despotism as inherently better for the future then anything Islamic. Look at where that got Iran. Look at how rural Islam is biting everyone's ass in Turkey after near a century repression by Kemalism. But people just never learn. Now Egypt can only choose between barely stable incompetent despotism of either strain constantly scratched in the feet by the other party or total electric boogaloo in the midst of worsening Nile water crisis.

[Tom Bombadil]

I wonder how the Gulf nations react to this. I remember them being big donators to the Egyptian government. I just forgot which side they were on.

[Ridwan]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

I wonder how the Gulf nations react to this. I remember them being big donators to the Egyptian government. I just forgot which side they were on.

They were on Mubarak's.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Ridwan

Oh god you're completely lost there, buddy. It's not about their ideology. It's about how Morsi government failed to address the most pressing concerns of Egyptian people and instead too busy at scoring ideological and political points in society and parliament respectively and then failed at both because he's a retarded douchebag. It still doesn't excuse military coup, however, not only that because it ices more feces on their already cesspool reputation for overthrowing a democratically elected government no matter how much of a failure it was, they also successfully inflamed Islamic reactionarism that now has all the reason to denounce democracy altogether. People should stop seeing secular despotism as inherently better for the future then anything Islamic. Look at where that got Iran. Look at how rural Islam is biting everyone's ass in Turkey after near a century repression by Kemalism. But people just never learn. Now Egypt can only choose between barely stable incompetent despotism of either strain constantly scratched in the feet by the other party or total electric boogaloo in the midst of worsening Nile water crisis.

That is exactly what I was saying. They need to realise that partridges don't spawn out of the sky and fly into their hands anymore at this time.

Their society and their government, as a whole, need to adapt to the modern world of capitalism. If Kuwait, Turkey and Israel can embrace it and still do fine, never mind the small troubles from the conservative factions, why can't they do the same?

[Ridwan]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

That is exactly what I was saying. They need to realise that partridges don't spawn out of the sky and fly into their hands anymore at this time.

Their society and their government, as a whole, need to adapt to the modern world of capitalism. If Kuwait, Turkey and Israel can embrace it and still do fine, never mind the small troubles from the conservative factions, why can't they do the same?

Egypt has been part of capitalist world since Sadat, and Morsi didn't reverse that. The issue here isn't ideological. It's about how Morsi, and perhaps the entire Egyptian political class doesn't seem interested in acting on national interest and seem to prioritize settling scores against each other. It's either I've underestimated how polarized Egyptian politics actually is, or Morsi has made it worse for being a terribad stateman.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Ridwan

Egypt has been part of capitalist world since Sadat, and Morsi didn't reverse that. The issue here isn't ideological. It's about how Morsi, and perhaps the entire Egyptian political class doesn't seem interested in acting on national interest and seem to prioritize settling scores against each other. It's either I've underestimated how polarized Egyptian politics actually is, or Morsi has made it worse for being a terribad stateman.

I wouldn't say that Egypt the level of capitalism Saudi Arabia/UAE, Kuwait or Malaysia has if we are to bring the "modernised Muslim States" into perspective; but yeah, I agree that both sides seemed more interested in comparing their testicular size rather than acting in the rather varied interests of the people.

[Ridwan]

Not everyone in the capitalist sphere is all dedicated to push their country's economic development forward it seems. Mubarak certainly didn't seem to care that much, and he had about 3 decades of spare time.

[ganbaru]

Islamists call Cairo protest march as Egypt death toll mounts
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...97C09A20130815

Japanese visits to shrine on war anniversary anger China
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...97D1EO20130815

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I don't know why the rest of the world have to make a fuss about Japan having a war shrine. The people are dead, they are not worshipped. Many of them may have done horrible things as soldiers, but is allowing them to rest in peace too much to ask?

The souls of the virtuous need no prayers; it is Buddhism's belief that you reserve your prayers to those who actually need them, like many soldiers who did horrible things. The act of praying at the shrine of the Japanese War Dead is not suppose to be a symbol of approval. It should not be interpreted as such.

I get it already. There was rape and murder. I get it that they don't talk about it much in Japanese text books. (China can't talk, they don't teach the Cultural Revolution either.) But at some point the other countries should get a grip and move on.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I don't know why the rest of the world have to make a fuss about Japan having a war shrine. The people are dead, they are not worshipped. Many of them may have done horrible things as soldiers, but is allowing them to rest in peace too much to ask?

The souls of the virtuous need no prayers; it is Buddhism's belief that you reserve your prayers to those who actually need them, like many soldiers who did horrible things. The act of praying at the shrine of the Japanese War Dead is not suppose to be a symbol of approval. It should not be interpreted as such.

I get it already. There was rape and murder. I get it that they don't talk about it much in Japanese text books. (China can't talk, they don't teach the Cultural Revolution either.) But at some point the other countries should get a grip and move on.

It's political move and slightly paranoid on their part (the evil imperial Japan strike back!!). As the South East Asia also suffer as much but they rarely were that outspoken

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I don't know why the rest of the world have to make a fuss about Japan having a war shrine. The people are dead, they are not worshipped. Many of them may have done horrible things as soldiers, but is allowing them to rest in peace too much to ask?

The souls of the virtuous need no prayers; it is Buddhism's belief that you reserve your prayers to those who actually need them, like many soldiers who did horrible things. The act of praying at the shrine of the Japanese War Dead is not suppose to be a symbol of approval. It should not be interpreted as such.

I get it already. There was rape and murder. I get it that they don't talk about it much in Japanese text books. (China can't talk, they don't teach the Cultural Revolution either.) But at some point the other countries should get a grip and move on.

Because their rivals are too lazy to come up with a new strawman target for their "love me more" stunts

[JokerD]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

It's political move and slightly paranoid on their part (the evil imperial Japan strike back!!). As the South East Asia also suffer as much but they rarely were that outspoken

Because our nationalists are busier directing their hate at each other?

[Ridwan]

We'd love to, but we trade extensively with them and we hate Malaysia more.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I don't know why the rest of the world have to make a fuss about Japan having a war shrine. The people are dead, they are not worshipped. Many of them may have done horrible things as soldiers, but is allowing them to rest in peace too much to ask?

The souls of the virtuous need no prayers; it is Buddhism's belief that you reserve your prayers to those who actually need them, like many soldiers who did horrible things. The act of praying at the shrine of the Japanese War Dead is not suppose to be a symbol of approval. It should not be interpreted as such.

I get it already. There was rape and murder. I get it that they don't talk about it much in Japanese text books. (China can't talk, they don't teach the Cultural Revolution either.) But at some point the other countries should get a grip and move on.

First of all, China has the right to talk, thank you very much. What is between China and its people (C.Rev) is apple and oranges to what happened between Japan and China.

Or South Korea and Japan (so anything SK did that disqualify their outrage as well?), Or North Korea with Japan. And it look like there was a protest or two in Taiwan yesterday as well.

Second question is, who are you to judge when should someone move on? massacre like this can go on for years, if not centuries. Do you think the Jews to accept a Shrine to Nazi war Criminals? After all, it was just a holocaust, there were some gas chambers and some bullets fired, we should all go lalala move on


Frankly, Japan would have to live with this for a long time. There are still Americans living in the South who are still hating anyone north of the Maxon Dixon for the civil war, for pete's sake. And Arab blood feuds go back to the 14th century or so.

The best thing Japan can do is produce more Doramon (In recent years, replaced faceless jackbooted gunmen in China as the symbol of Japan) l and less "Lets build an army for nationalistic spirits"

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I don't know why the rest of the world have to make a fuss about Japan having a war shrine. The people are dead, they are not worshipped. Many of them may have done horrible things as soldiers, but is allowing them to rest in peace too much to ask?

The souls of the virtuous need no prayers; it is Buddhism's belief that you reserve your prayers to those who actually need them, like many soldiers who did horrible things. The act of praying at the shrine of the Japanese War Dead is not suppose to be a symbol of approval. It should not be interpreted as such.

I get it already. There was rape and murder. I get it that they don't talk about it much in Japanese text books. (China can't talk, they don't teach the Cultural Revolution either.) But at some point the other countries should get a grip and move on.

It is sort of like a seesaw, Japan does something then its neighbors react. Korea/China does something, then Japan react.
Just replaces the words Japanese with Korean, Yasukuni with Dokdo, and China with Japan, you get one of the Eastern Asian annual events.

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

It's political move and slightly paranoid on their part (the evil imperial Japan strike back!!). As the South East Asia also suffer as much but they rarely were that outspoken

Ah, but doesn't Japanese politicians also have political motives for going to the shrine?

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Because their rivals are too lazy to come up with a new strawman target for their "love me more" stunts

Hey now, we are not the only lazy one here. Japan is also being lazy by doing the same thing every year .

I am amused all these events every year, it is same thing every year. I don't feel anger as much as when I was a kid, maybe because of the repetitiveness made me spent all my anger in the past.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I don't know why the rest of the world have to make a fuss about Japan having a war shrine. The people are dead, they are not worshipped. Many of them may have done horrible things as soldiers, but is allowing them to rest in peace too much to ask?

The souls of the virtuous need no prayers; it is Buddhism's belief that you reserve your prayers to those who actually need them, like many soldiers who did horrible things. The act of praying at the shrine of the Japanese War Dead is not suppose to be a symbol of approval. It should not be interpreted as such.

I get it already. There was rape and murder. I get it that they don't talk about it much in Japanese text books. (China can't talk, they don't teach the Cultural Revolution either.) But at some point the other countries should get a grip and move on.

The buried are (mostly) not the issue. The symbol is, and Buddhism has nothing to do with the issue at hand here.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

First of all, China has the right to talk, thank you very much. What is between China and its people (C.Rev) is apple and oranges to what happened between Japan and China.

Or South Korea and Japan (so anything SK did that disqualify their outrage as well?), Or North Korea with Japan. And it look like there was a protest or two in Taiwan yesterday as well.

Second question is, who are you to judge when should someone move on? massacre like this can go on for years, if not centuries. Do you think the Jews to accept a Shrine to Nazi war Criminals? After all, it was just a holocaust, there were some gas chambers and some bullets fired, we should all go lalala move on


Frankly, Japan would have to live with this for a long time. There are still Americans living in the South who are still hating anyone north of the Maxon Dixon for the civil war, for pete's sake. And Arab blood feuds go back to the 14th century or so.

The best thing Japan can do is produce more Doramon (In recent years, replaced faceless jackbooted gunmen in China as the symbol of Japan) l and less "Lets build an army for nationalistic spirits"

That is because the current generation had enough of that "us vs them" mentality.

My grandparents/uncles are in the resistance and some of them were at the massacre at Bukit Timah Hill. They never forgave the Japanese and weren't happy about their children consuming Japanese products in the 1980s during their economic boom.

Those nationalist dogs can go bite the dust and stop riling up emotions over matters like this. Foot soldiers die in the war, the least we can do is let them rest in peace for the mistakes some egoistical retard sent them to make; even your enemies, regardless of how atrocious they have been, has that right to respect their dead. So do yours.

Interestingly, the locals in SEA here never ranted about the INA "traitors", or the idiot Chinese busy fighting amongst themselves while Imperial Japan was giving them a Lucky Pierre. The MPAJA/136/Indochina Resistance, made up of largely Chinese, had to rely on the SOE/ANZAC for resources because they are not getting any help from the Mainland. So much for the monetary assistance sent to them in the mid-late 1930s to help fight the Japanese when most of it is siphoned by individual factions to fight the Chinese Civil War.