Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Proto

Empathy is a logical fallacy?

It isn't, but it does skew an argument meant to be logical. Of course, given the show we're discussing, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

There are different levels of intelligence, whether it be academic, emotional, or what many call "street-smart." And what I see in Nagisa is a lack of emotional intelligence.

You must be blind then if you don't see that.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

So it is all about her desire then and no one else?

Nagisa has never asked for anything. Ever. This is the ONE THING she's ever really wanted.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

OK, so she is being selfish, what I stated in my first post in this thread.

HAY GUYZ HOW I HAD ARGUEMUNT.

Seriously, that was a terrible rebuttal. Go back and try again.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

For me it is comparable to someone flipping a coin where head means you get a million dollars, and tails means you die. A human being is not the same as million dollars, but even so, it is the idea of risking it all for some desire that bothers me. If you do not treat your own life carefully, you do not respect yourself, and I find it hard to respect someone who does not respect them self.

It wasn't a 50-50 chance. Not at all. They were going to the hospital, and there was a very high chance she would have survived. It was just bad luck, pure and simple.

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Not the 'we can always have another' argument. Too much logic, too less emotion. And this is an emotional show, no matter how hard we try to fit it into logical norms.

Sorry, I'm not trying to start anything (or an arguement for that matter), just stating what I'd do in the situation, we can leave it at that.

;V

[RandomFlameStrike]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

For me it is comparable to someone flipping a coin where head means you get a million dollars, and tails means you die. A human being is not the same as million dollars, but even so, it is the idea of risking it all for some desire that bothers me. If you do not treat your own life carefully, you do not respect yourself, and I find it hard to respect someone who does not respect them self.

Again, she was being selfish, and I do not feel she made the best decision. Also, I do not see how because it's what she wants to do, that it justifies her decision.

The sitution isn't like that... It's more like this, a loved one's life is at stake and you are forced to make a decsion. You flip 2 coins and one of them lands on tails, you get to save this loved one and live a happy life. But if both land on heads, the loved one lives but you die. Or you could back out and the loved one dies, you'll be forever haunted by the fact you were too cowardly to save that loved one beacuse you weren't brave enough to take the 25% or so chance that you yourself might die. While you would abandon that loved one, Nagisa choosed to face those odds and give Ushio a chance to live, risking her own life. She just happend to get two heads.

Also I'm annoyed that you're advocating to kill off Ushio, who is the most adorable little kid ever. Meh well this is Bias since I already know about Ushio as a character and would be horrifyed to see her get killed. Too you she's just something that risks Nagisa's life. To me she's a character I like, and to Nagisa Ushio is the important daughter that is the fruitation of her and Tomoya's love.

Nagisa has had a weak body, but she wants to live strongly. Nagisa can't bring herself to condem Ushio to death because of her own weak body. It isn't Ushio's fault that Nagisa is weak, why should she have to suffer any potential consequences?

[Myssa Rei]

Not starting one. The problem is with the discussions raging around this episode always seem to be centered upon 'What I would do here.'

[RandomFlameStrike]

Yeah I know, notice a key word in Reckoner's above qoute "For me". Ushio's life = a million dollars to him, while to Nagisa it means so much more.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Nagisa has never asked for anything. Ever. This is the ONE THING she's ever really wanted.

False. There are several other times I have seen Nagisa desire something, and much to her enjoyment she had friends and family to support her.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

HAY GUYZ HOW I HAD ARGUEMUNT.

Seriously, that was a terrible rebuttal. Go back and try again.

You deserve a negative rep for this, sorry but I did not do anything to incur such a response. Unfortunately I do not have the ability to do so at this time.

The reason I was criticized in my original post was because I said that Nagisa was being selfish.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

It wasn't a 50-50 chance. Not at all. They were going to the hospital, and there was a very high chance she would have survived. It was just bad luck, pure and simple.

50-50, 40-60, or 80-20, you are still playing around with your own life. Even 90-10 is still risking a lot. Anyway, it is just speculation on our part for Nagisa's chances of living through child birth. But from my perspective while watching, she definitely did not seem OK to give birth.

Originally Posted by RandomFlameStrike

Yeah I know, notice a key word in Reckoner's above qoute "For me". Ushio's life = a million dollars to him, while to Nagisa it means so much more.

Read my post more carefully. I said it is hard to put a $ tag on a human life, but the point is that one outcome is very desirable to the person, while the other is something that should matter more to you. If you care less about your life, you do not respect yourself.

[RandomFlameStrike]

Fck "playing around"? -_- So Naigsa deciding to risk her life so that her innocent unborn child could LIVE is "Playing around with her own life"? Nagisa's chance of surviving was decent enough, which is why she wanted to risk it so that her baby could live. So if you were told that you had a 50/50 chance of saving someone in a burning building if you went in, and you really wanted to save said someone, trying to save that person is "Playing around with your life"?

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Read my post more carefully. I said it is hard to put a $ tag on a human life, but the point is that one outcome is very desirable to the person, while the other is something that should matter more to you. If you care less about your life, you do not respect yourself.

It's not that she didn't respect herself, or that she didn't care about her own life! In Nagisa's point of view Ushio was a LIFE. A life that was worth risking her own to save. To you Naigsa had a choice between a huge benefit and a huge loss, that's not how she saw it. Are you implieing that everyone, like fire fighters, or police, or etc, who risk their lives to save other people's lives are disrespecting themselves? Because that's how Nagisa saw her own descion, as a matter of life and death.

[Myssa Rei]

RandomFlameStrike: I've avoided answering as such since, well, if I did then my opinion would be REALLY colored by my emotional biases. I mean, think of it, I'm a single, well-educated, and relatively successful working woman who has a TICKING BIOLOGICAL CLOCK RINGING IN MY MIND. Every. Single. Day.

[Proto]

50-50, 40-60, or 80-20, you are still playing around with your own life. Even 90-10 is still risking a lot.

Well, it seems you are a advocate of living a zero risk life. While it is a respectable way of living, I don't find your position enviable, given than you would find a very good percentage off the world population to not fit your tastes and way of living (doctors dealing with patient with infectious diseases, war journalists, wild life photographers, people who practice an extreme sport, etc.), and thus not being worth of your respect.

Anyway, it seems that you are too entertained having a 1on1 with Kaisos, so I'll leave at that.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

False. There are several other times I have seen Nagisa desire something, and much to her enjoyment she had friends and family to support her.

She's still not selfish. She's not begging for attention or anything. She doesn't feel she deserves it.

Only things I've ever seen her want were a) the Drama Club and b) Ushio.

No, the stuffed Dangos don't count. Tomoya keeps offering her them.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

You deserve a negative rep for this, sorry but I did not do anything to incur such a response. Unfortunately I do not have the ability to do so at this time.

The reason I was criticized in my original post was because I said that Nagisa was being selfish.

Sorry, but the way you responded confused me. I can't put it into words. It just looked like terrible arguing.

I "deserve" a neg-rep. Great choice of words, too.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

50-50, 40-60, or 80-20, you are still playing around with your own life. Even 90-10 is still risking a lot. Anyway, it is just speculation on our part for Nagisa's chances of living through child birth. But from my perspective while watching, she definitely did not seem OK to give birth.

You're arguing the same damn thing over and over again, and missing my main point.

You're not Nagisa.

Nagisa made a choice. She made the choice to save her daughter and risk her own life. This is noble, in its own way. End of story.

Originally Posted by RandomFlameStrike

It's not that she didn't respect herself, or that she didn't care about her own life! In Nagisa's point of view Ushio was a LIFE. A life that was worth risking her own to save. To you Naigsa had a choice between a huge benefit and a huge loss, that's not how she saw it. Are you implieing that everyone, like fire fighters, or police, or etc, who risk their lives to save other people's lives are disrespecting themselves? Because that's how Nagisa saw her own descion, as a matter of life and death.

This. This this this.

This is what I am trying to get at. Thank you.

[RandomFlameStrike]

From what I can tell, Reckoner says Nagisa is stupid since from HIS point of view Ushio is some expendable risk that could bring great benefit. And Nagisa is stupid for gambling her life on this risk.
You have to understand that to Nagisa Ushio was an important unquie daughter. If she aborted her and had another child later, she would still have killed off Ushio in her eyes. Now if you start to argue about wether Nagisa was stupid for seeing the unborn Ushio as a human being/life, then we'll end up in sticky territory.

Also I share Nagisa's pov in thinking of Ushio as a unique human. So the question of abortion or not is equvilent to choosing to risk your life to save another or not. I think that Nagisa's choice was nobel/selfish in this way. It hardly stupid or retarded to risk your life to save either a stranger or a loved one.

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

50-50, 40-60, or 80-20, you are still playing around with your own life. Even 90-10 is still risking a lot. Anyway, it is just speculation on our part for Nagisa's chances of living through child birth. But from my perspective while watching, she definitely did not seem OK to give birth.

Do note that she was okay up until she suddenly had a fever, on top of the unexpected labor, on top of what looks like a once-in-a-decade snowout, which made travel to a hospital in another town a tricky proposition at best. You're ignoring the odds that got stacked against them, again.

Without all of those, she would have had a chance. She would have been weak after the birthing, but she and the baby would have lived. We have real-life cases where mothers who had admittedly weak constitutions have pulled through. Heck we even have more extreme cases (the octuplets in the US spring to mind).

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by RandomFlameStrike

Now if you start to argue about wether Nagisa was stupid for seeing the unborn Ushio as a human being/life, then we'll end up in sticky territory.

It's not that she would be killing a child.

She would be killing the POSSIBILITY of that child. Which is, in its own way, much much worse.

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Do note that she was okay up until she suddenly had a fever, on top of the unexpected labor, on top of what looks like a once-in-a-decade snowout, which made travel to a hospital in another town a tricky proposition at best. You're ignoring the odds that got stacked against them, again.

I'm more surprised people aren't complaining about the contrived circumstances, actually.

But things like that DO happen.

[Sorrow-K]

We're pretty much considering the line between selfless and reckless, and trying to figure out which side Nagisa sits on, but I do think it's important to recognize that the line does exist; it's shortsighted not to.

It's all well and good to think about it in terms of probabilities, but it's a pointless activity unless you take into consideration Nagisa's character and things like maternal instinct and her desire for a family... things which aren't simple to quantify. People seem to forget that even before she was born, Nagisa loved her child, she was the daughter of Tomoya, the love of her life, etc. It's inevitable that that's going to influence her decision and I think it's unfair to say that her judgement was clouded because of her love for her family to be. People often have things that they aren't going to compromise on... for Nagisa, this was probably one of them. When you're talking about things like parents and children, where one's emotions are heightened, it's not uncommon for people to make the same decision, for parents to put their children's well-being before themselves.

But I think what Nagisa faced was a worst case scenario that she hadn't expected. Is it really fair to expect her to think about her death as if it were some sort of distinct possibility? Surely, if it as a distinct possibility, it would have been brought up by her doctor. After she compromised on the hospital, there didn't seem to be as much concern for her health as there was before, which kinda indicates that they thought that she would have probably lived had she delivered in the hospital. Which is why what happened was more a cruel twist of fate than a poor decision, IMO. Nagisa's decision to give birth was justified to a certain respect, even if it did put her life in danger, but it does require consideration of a perfectly natural and common emotional desire, ie, that of a parent to protect their child. Things just didn't go as planned, and they weren't able to react quickly enough to rectify the situation. It happens to everyone (ie, things not going to plan), it's just, in this case, the consequences were fatal.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Proto

Well, it seems you are a advocate of living a zero risk life. While it is a respectable way of living, I don't find your position enviable, given than you would find a very good percentage off the world population to not fit your tastes and way of living (doctors dealing with patient with infectious diseases, war journalists, wild life photographers, people who practice an extreme sport, etc.), and thus not being worth of your respect.

Anyway, it seems that you are too entertained having a 1on1 with Kaisos, so I'll leave at that.

No, I am not necessarily an advocate of a zero risk life. Many of those people you mentioned are very respectable and admirable human beings. The difference between several of those people and someone like Nagisa, is that they truly realize the situation they are in. I don't see, or cannot see how Nagisa truly realized the unfortunate possibilities that may have arisen with giving a child birth in her condition. She just gives off vibes of naivety, and it is because of this that I cannot respect her choice.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

She's still not selfish. She's not begging for attention or anything. She doesn't feel she deserves it.

Only things I've ever seen her want were a) the Drama Club and b) Ushio.

No, the stuffed Dangos don't count. Tomoya keeps offering her them.

I'm too tired to look through all the episodes and cite all the moments, whatever, we'll disagree here.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

You're arguing the same damn thing over and over again, and missing my main point.

You're not Nagisa.

Nagisa made a choice. She made the choice to save her daughter and risk her own life. This is noble, in its own way. End of story.

And you do not seem to understand that I see this as foolish, not noble.

Originally Posted by RandomFlameStrike

Fck "playing around"? -_- So Naigsa deciding to risk her life so that her innocent unborn child could LIVE is "Playing around with her own life"? Nagisa's chance of surviving was decent enough, which is why she wanted to risk it so that her baby could live. So if you were told that you had a 50/50 chance of saving someone in a burning building if you went in, and you really wanted to save said someone, trying to save that person is "Playing around with your life"?

It's not that she didn't respect herself, or that she didn't care about her own life! In Nagisa's point of view Ushio was a LIFE. A life that was worth risking her own to save. To you Naigsa had a choice between a huge benefit and a huge loss, that's not how she saw it. Are you implieing that everyone, like fire fighters, or police, or etc, who risk their lives to save other people's lives are disrespecting themselves? Because that's how Nagisa saw her own descion, as a matter of life and death.

It is playing around when the person making the choice is naive or short-sighted. I must mention this again though, just because it was her choice and desire does not justify the decision as something well thought out.

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

Things just didn't go as planned, and they weren't able to react quickly enough to rectify the situation. It happens to everyone (ie, things not going to plan), it's just, in this case, the consequences were fatal.

I guess part of the problem in this argument between both sides is the lack of information about Nagisa's illness, what were her real chances and such. To me it seems like she still had a good chance of dieing, evne if she was in a hospital.

[RandomFlameStrike]

Heh well they needed Nagisa to die for the sake of the story, and she wasn't going to die if everything went normally with the pregancy, so add in a ton of contrived circumstances and whoaa!

And Reckoner, when have I said that just because it was here choice/desire=it's well thought out? I keep trying to tell you what it was like from her PoV. She isn't playing around with her life damit. She understood the potenial risks, but still wanted it to give her all to save Ushio. Say if Superman busts into a bad guy's lair to save someone's life. He knows that they MIGHT have Kyrptonite and he might die, but he also knows that being scared of the off chance that they might have krptonite means that the person DIES. If he decides to risk his life, then he's playing around with his life? Jeeze. For Nagisa the plot just happend to shove kryptonite up her throat. Nagisa choose to face the "bad guys" (her bad health) instead of running away with her tail tucked between her legs.

Oh yeah, according to you, Fire fighters, policemen, soliders, swat teams, and all super heros who risk their lives for other people are FOOLISH! They are playing with their lives!

[Proto]

I don't see, or cannot see how Nagisa truly realized the unfortunate possibilities that may have arisen with giving a child birth in her condition.

Given all the prenatal classes and checkups that we saw her taking I would like to think that she didn't just dozed up during those, and had sufficient information in her hands to take a decision she would be satisfied with. (which is what all the people I cited in my previous post had in common).

[RandomFlameStrike]

Ugh and Reckoner, there IS information about her illness. I've said it before, but going into detail about the nature of her illness would be huge spoiler for the future. That said, I don't think the illness would have ever killed her by its self and it was extreme bad luck that she happend to get sick again at the exact bad time. Her illness is not something you can just "catch". Remember, this is KEY we're talking about. KEY.

Her real chances of dieing were not that high imo. And to you anyone risking their life to save another person's life is teh stupid foolish action of playing with their own life. So I guess if you think of it that way, Nagisa's decsion to save her baby was a bad one.

[Myssa Rei]

Gentlemen, keep tempers and egos on a leash, please.

Reckoner: The people who know about Nagisa's disease (me included) cannot and will not speak about it as it's a spoiler. And Klash has already clue-batted me enough about that.

And we have given you the facts about the string of bad luck that contributed to the situation. Repeatedly.