Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha ViVid Manga Discussion

[Rising Dragon]

Said "strongest" had artificial limbs for her strength, which Vivio doesn't. Vivio's one display of strength was amped by through artificial means by the Saint's Cradle and an implanted Relic. The only reason it's a circle argument is because you keep making it one, Sansker.

[Sansker]

I haven't found a reason to change my mind and I don't think my opinion on this matter is of any less value so I stay with it. And even when consider those facts Olive didn't have Relic on her days and robotic arms can't give you magical power, so my point still hold ground there. Vivio is kind of a weak link compare to her original, artificial arms or not. Then again she was made by Jail so that will explain a lot. Besides if you want to move the theme then just do it.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sansker

I haven't found a reason to change my mind and I don't think my opinion on this matter is of any less value so I stay with it. And even when consider those facts Olive didn't have Relic on her days and robotic arms can't give you magical power, so my point still hold ground there. Vivio is kind of a weak link compare to her original, artificial arms or not. Then again she was made by Jail so that will explain a lot. Besides if you want to move the theme then just do it.

You don't know if she didn't use a Relic or not. Use of Relics was pretty common back then, so there's actually a fairly good chance she was using one. And given that it's Nanoha, with plenty of magic-use robotics, it's also entirely possible they DID give her magical power, so your point is still flimsy at best.

As for Vivio's weakness, yes. You've said your point. Again. Now quit bringing it up.

[Sansker]

Well, you are the one discussing it so I see there is room to debate here and I am all in to a nice one. Your points, however, are: "this could be" which leave us right back to where we start none of us really know and we decide what to believe. Or what to make out of this. And is not like people here doesn’t repeat itself is impossible not to.

[Rising Dragon]

Hey, you're the one who said it was a circular debate. You knew what you were getting into when you brought it up yet again. On your own head be it, Sansker.

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Well, you are the one discussing it so I see there is room to debate here and I am all in to a nice one. Your points, however, are: "this could be" which leave us right back to where we start none of us really know and we decide what to believe. Or what to make out of this. And is not like people here doesn’t repeat itself is impossible not to.

You were the one who started it. Hoki only commented on Vivio's nerfing. Then you go and bring in your opinion - which we have heard again and again - to the table.

[Sansker]

Fine, then lest talk about something else I have been wondering. Since all of this is now going back in to the Ancient Belka kings, don’t you think is possible for Ixpellia to wake up and join our even growing cast of little girls?

[Rising Dragon]

Fairly possible. Maybe not suddenly, but I imagine she was brought up at the start for a reason. Einhart in particular had hoped meet her, even if her reasons were to fight her.

[Sansker]

Yes but she can’t really fight, I think it wasn’t clear, but also that makes me wonder if Ixpellia did have contact with Olive and Claus back in their days. I think she did spend 1,000 years sleeping prior Sound Stage X. I think this might help us to get some light in to the time line. There was any indication how long was Ixpellia asleep before SSX? And if she was in contact with Olivie.

[Lhklan]

^ Nope. Only a couple of hundred years. She still needs to sleep to recover her energy, with the time ranging from 1 - 1000 years.

[Rising Dragon]

No, she can't, but Einhart likely wasn't aware of that--I'm fairly certain she's encountered a Mariage before, though.

As for Ixy, from what I understand, her rule predated Olivie and Klaus. She might've awoken in their time, perhaps.

[Sansker]

Well with a sleep that range from 1 to 1,000 then we need a solid number. This leave us back at the start with nothing.

Also I don't think Einhar has fight Mirage. I mean is odd she knows about Ixpellia but then again isn't clear if her existence is a secret. Look how Vivio isn't with some of the Numbers calling her "your majesty"

[Rising Dragon]

Maybe not fight one, but that was definitely a Mariage's visor she was sporting when she confronted Nove for the first time. Ixpellia's likely not a secret--if they're willing to publicly acknowledge Vivio as the Sankt Kaiser, I see no reason why the Church would hide Ixpellia's existence, especially given the fact that they know she held no control over the Mariage and thus wasn't responsible for the deaths they caused, as well as Bureau policy of criminal reformation.

[Sansker]

Yes but they do keep secret Hayate is the master of the Book of Darkness (Well Tome of the Night Sky I know but for the rest of them is Book of Darkness). And considering Ixpellia’s reputation of a bloody dark queen you might want to keep it secret. I mean it seems this Ancient Belka thing is getting more important. I, for once, won’t mind some explanation here if this will be a significant matter or if is just another excuse to have the characters be friendly cute to each other without hitting each other. A change of the tone is fine enough I guess.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Lhklan

Nanoha was a - pardon the term - freak of nature, while Fate was trained by Precia since she was young.

Just to elaborate. It's a bit less of Nanoha being "abnormally powerfull" and more of her being outrageously talented in the ways fo magic. Sure, Fern Corrado beat her with AA rank and basic equipement and Chrono displayed more proficiency then her, but both were professionals who has trained for years ( several decades in the case of Mrs. Corrado) but the fact she's even able to put up a fight against before even being a pre-teen and learned magic from a barely offensive support mage is testament of how damn skilled she is.

The point is, since StrikerS was clarified that what Nanoha did to reach such absurdly high level of power so fast is considered excessive, health risking and an overall bad idea of training for a mage to follow specially while being as young as Nanoha and she paid the consequences big time. Naturally no one wants Vivio to obsess too much over getting stronger because they probably don't want her to go overboard with her training and end up injuring herself, her mother knows better than anyone else how that can turn up. Vivio doesn't have the need to fight for the fate of the universe nor dealing with dangerous criminals and complots, she's competing on a safe sports enviroment so she can take her training more calmly and progress at a a more normal rate. Probably Nanoha's power at 9-12 wouldn't be as awesome as it was if she has been guided more properly. Shante's comments on Vivio and the way Nove and Nanoha care for her makes me think they indeed ara somewhat aware of that and want Vivio to grow healthy as a mage.

[bhl88]

Nanoha's from Earth.... Which has talent I guess..

[Keroko]

I don't see how the whole "Vivio is weaker than Olivie" is a circular debate. It's rather simple. Remember, what did Olivie have?

• The Kaiser Armor, the toughest protection magic we know of to date. Extremely tough defense.
• Mechanical arms. Rule of cyborgs says these are stronger than normal arms by default, so they would be even stronger with magic. Strong attacks.

What does Vivio no longer have?

• No more Kaiser Armor, lost in the Cradle. Low defense.
• Natural arms. Limited to her natural arms, which Olivie never had. Lower attack.

See? It's simple. No Kaiser Armor + no cyborg arms = lower defense and attack. Yes, it's retcon as hell and, in my honest opinion, just a lazy way to give Vivio a "getting stronger" story, but it does make sense.

[Hoki]

Since I was the one who accidentally restarted the discussion about Vivio, I'll just throw in my two cents. Seriously, I'm very prone to long rants when it comes to characters, so grab a snack and a drink.

This "Vivio is weaker than Olivie" thing is quite interesting, but we must also factor in several important things that could serve as basis for determining strength.

First, there's Olivie. THE Saint Kaiser and recognized as the most powerful mage in history. She lived in an era of warfare, where strength determines life and death. She was a princess of a Belkan kingdom, so at some point, she was expected to lead their kingdom's armies into war (but as we all know, her right to succession wasn't prioritized due to reasons still unexplained). So there's one factor there, it was necessary for her to become strong, but we do not know what kind of training she went through to reach the level of strength that would make her a legend. Another is we are only given hints of how talented Olivie is in combat, the biggest being that her combat ability was second to none. Did she mix Strike Arts with bombardment magic? Was she a pure attack type? How broad was her knowledge in battle? These are things we have no idea, as even the manga does not provide us with information other than "Olivie was the greatest mage who ever lived." And with regards to her artificial arms, it is implied (based from Einhart's flashback) that she controls them mentally, using a variant of what we now know as Corona's Nephilim Fist, meaning her arms do not have added strength, and could only be as powerful as normal human arms. The only thing we ARE sure of is that she had the Saint Armor, which helped her survival rate in combat by basically turning her into a tough nut to crack. If she was living in modern Mid-childa as a normal strike artist (which Vivio is at the moment), would she still be "the greatest mage ever?"

Then we have Vivio Takamachi; Olivie's clone. Though various circumstances presented in StrikerS, we are given a glimpse of how powerful Olivie was. The problem here is that StrikerS only showed us how powerful Olivie was while inside the Cradle, where she had basically unlimited energy. Still, as Vivio, she only had the skills she acquired through "data collection" and those skills were not the same skills Olivie used. Compare this to Einhart, who remembers all the tricks Hegemon Ingvalt knew, and can use them with the same proficiency, albeit with a little bit of training from hell. Vivio has no recollection of Olivie's skills, so she's basically a novice whose just started learning Strike Arts. She ALSO HAD the Saint Armor, but lost it after the final battle in StrikerS, making her defense capability very poor (which given her style as a counter hitter, is very disadvantageous, as shown with her fight with Miura). Finally, she is living in a relatively peaceful age, and taking up Strike Arts as a hobby (albeit for her, it is a serious hobby), so she does not have to be forced into hellish training like Olivie during her time (probably), nor force herself into hellish training, like Nanoha did in her youth. Supposing that Vivio retained all of Olivie's skills and the Saint Armor, would we still be comparing them to each other?

In conclusion, comparing Vivio to Olivie is very difficult to do, and we should just be content that the two of them are different individuals. After all Vivio doesn't see herself as Olivie's clone, but more like her descendant. Lets just stick to that.

[Takamura Mamoru]

Nevermind the Kaiser Armor and mecha arms, I doubt Vivio would be comparable to Olivie in power even if she did have those things.

Nanoha crushed her and I sincerely doubt that Nanoha is at the same level of power as a Belkan ruler... The way people talk about Olivie and Claus, I'd estimate them to be AT LEAST SS rank (and a combat rank, not synthetic like Hayate).
The only way to explain this then, is that Vivio is just not in the same realm of power as the real thing. Kind of like how Hayate is nothing compared to Reinforce in A's, despite technically having both the same amount of mana and access to the same spells.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru

Nanoha crushed her and I sincerely doubt that Nanoha is at the same level of power as a Belkan ruler... The way people talk about Olivie and Claus, I'd estimate them to be AT LEAST SS rank (and a combat rank, not synthetic like Hayate).

Why's that? Most people just talk about them being strong (speaking of which, I can't quite recall that Olivie was acknowledged as the most powerful mage ever). Now they were strong, but I've yet to see any indication that they were so mighty powerful they would leave Nanoha in the dust. Sure, Belkan rulers are generally described as some of the most powerful mages of their time, but then... so is Nanoha.