2010-07-04, 01:13 | Link #2421 | ||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
|
In Rebuild or EoE?
Quote:
Personally I find this to be huge. Mr.Hedgehog is CHOOSING to become close with someone. Again, it appears as a slight nuance in his character, but for me it is a significant difference that again I don't appreciate (BTW Shinji isn't exactly my main complaint on Rebuild, I have much more qualms with Asuka as you can tell from signature). Quote:
Maybe Anno is going to show how this ultimately leads to problems and shows the folly of Shonen type stories once more. Then perhaps I can give him a saving grace. At the moment though, I see a good amount of people liking this scene because "Shinji manned up." Oh brother. Regardless... It seems like quite the awkward choice considering what I said above. I just hope Anno isn't using Evangelion in a manner that completely detracts from what the original Evangelion meant.
__________________
|
||
2010-07-04, 01:42 | Link #2422 | |
Moderate Haruhiist
|
It's called 'tongue-in-cheek'. :P Humor the old maid taking up Creative Writing as her Master's Degree (and is currently trying to properly explicate the theme of a 400+ page novel in less than 100 words) -- as I've come to see the changes in Rebuild as an interesting study in Plot Divergence, with a creator revisiting his older, well-known work, and changing the fundamental dynamics in it to make something similar, yet at the same time wildly different from the source it was based on.
Quote:
EVANGELION meant a lot of different things to a lot of different people, never mind Anno himself. Unfortunately, how he sees EVA now as a concept/idea might be wildly different from how he looked at it fifteen-odd years ago.
__________________
Last edited by Myssa Rei; 2010-07-04 at 02:06. |
|
2010-07-04, 07:22 | Link #2423 | |
A blast from the past
Artist
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fortaleza-CE, Brazil
Age: 46
|
Quote:
Your milleage may vary, though. However, I feel that directly comparing the events in the newer movies to their "counterparts" in the original series is totally counterproductive. I mean, the events being slightly (or, by the second movie on, majorly) different do not imply direct comparison anymore. So, why bother?
__________________
|
|
2010-07-04, 10:21 | Link #2424 | ||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
|
Quote:
Some argue that the characters really are not all that different and simply made different decisions. This is the remark that I vehemently disagree with the most. But I debate about this, not because the characters are just different, but because the meaning of the series changes with the difference in the characters (ESPECIALLY Shinji). If the characters are not different, then everything is left relatively in tact and we are simply just walking down another fork in the road. This is what I thought Rebuild was going to be like, however, I believe Anno simply decided to take a different journey altogether or perhaps decided to water down his journey into a very dilute state. This is why I find it hard to recognize Rebuild as truly Evangelion. I get the sense that it is of course from the in your face elements like the Angels and Eva's, and the setup of the story in general. But in the original Evangelion, I really got the sense that this was Anno's heart and soul being put on a table for everyone to see, and I still have not been able to get that from Rebuild (Though I admit, the movie format hurts this a bit). Again, perhaps Anno can shatter everything I said in the next movies, but there are some things that I already feel are beyond repair (Like Asuka). Quote:
If the artist is clearly trying to send this sort of message or speak to the audience in some way, but the audience is not even able to recognize it, can we interpret this as a failure? My point is, Evangelion clearly had some sort of agenda. There are many way we can spin it of course, but Anno injected some sort of meaning to the series in general. Now everyone is still speculating of course about Anno's intentions in Rebuild. We do not know him. We heard reports that he was depressed during NGE, and we hear reports now that he is apparently "happy." Does this mean he has a change in philosophy? Perhaps this is the case and now he wishes to shape Evangelion into his new way of thinking. However, I remain a skeptic. Both because so far I haven't seen any of his new philosophy or what have you (I'm still waiting for the next movies to pass judgement though), and that perhaps maybe not everyone has been able to morph their thinking in a way that could connect with this new mind set. I came on a little late to the Evangelion scene, since I am younger than the original audience. But for some reason I doubt those extra years would have honestly provided that much of a difference to my outlook on this series.
__________________
|
||
2010-07-04, 10:54 | Link #2425 | ||
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Around
|
In EoE, obviously.
Quote:
Quote:
Another thing that those celebrating Shinji's manly moment seem to forget is that he accomplished his deeds through the power of Eva. I'm a bit befuddled by people not taking note of this, despite the fact that both in the series and in Rebuild (every "mwhahaha, our machinations are progressing well" conversation between Gendo and Seele) it is established pretty firmly that Evas are abominable monstrosities that shouldn't exist in the first place if not for mankind's own foolishness. Well, Eva-01 has Yui inside, which makes things more layered, but the thing itself is still an unholy biotech demon. It's sorta fun. And i honestly see the analogies. Last edited by Greg88; 2010-07-04 at 11:11. |
||
2010-07-04, 11:27 | Link #2426 | |
Moderate Haruhiist
|
Quote:
I could easily see the same with Anno's case. Which makes it a fascinating study, on top of the visual and thematic shifts we've seen so far. You'd be surprised how much even just a decade's worth of extra experience can change one's outlook. I went from being a bipolar timebomb to pretty much unflappable and open-minded over the course of my second try at my undergraduate studies, for example.
__________________
Last edited by Myssa Rei; 2010-07-04 at 12:18. |
|
2010-07-04, 12:23 | Link #2428 | |
Gregory House
IT Support
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2010-07-06, 20:39 | Link #2434 | ||||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
This was a more unnatural way to explore it or perhaps that's the wrong word to use here... But this makes it seem like Shinji was not as broken down by the dilemma as NGE Shinji. NGE Shinji really wasn't willing to try much anymore, and any so called "relationships" he had with people around him were really formed naturally without him making any outward effort to do anything (Beyond trying to understand his father a little bit). I don't want to see Shinji making lunches for people, and going out of his way to try and bond with them like he did with Rei in this movie. I think it does an injustice to people who really suffer the hedgehog's dilemma or at least those who understand his pain. Perhaps Anno is trying to make Shinji rise higher to try and make him fall even harder... But I guess we'll see. Anyways, I basically want my damn coca cola instead of this diet coca cola crap! Quote:
They certainly are abominable beings.
__________________
|
||||
2010-07-06, 21:35 | Link #2435 | |
Gregory House
IT Support
|
Nearing the end of my fifth or sixth rewatching of the series, I have to say that I cannot see how Anno can change things. Unless he dissolves the dichotomy of Instrumentality (death of the human, humans as objects, Heidegger II's paradigm of man as a shepherd of the being which latter provided the foundations for postmodern philosophers) vs. Self (the Being not as a transcendent cogito but as Heidegger I's discrete Dasein, human subjectivity, Sartre's consciousness, being-for-itself and being-for-others) and adds another possibility, there is no other path he can take. If changing the ending means he will take the Instrumentality path, then it's more laughable than we can possibly imagine, and I'm sure he won't do such a disservice to himself. And honestly, besides Asuka's mysterious epiphany, there haven't been too many changes in the new movies, at least in terms of character development and underlying ideas.
Also, seriously lolling at Wikipedia right now: Quote:
Also, I kind of feel dirty for writing all that philosophical babble I wrote earlier since I know it sounds extremely smug, but bear with me. After rewatching the series with a stronger philosophical background, I'm convinced that, even if he did it unwittingly (which would not surprise me, artists need not be aware of their own influences), Anno condensed one of the most important conflicts of 20th century philosophy in NGE. And even threw Freud and Lacan into the mix. Simply brilliant -- that's the beauty of NGE. There's so many layers, even if they weren't put there on purpose. You could write an entire forest about it.
__________________
|
|
2010-07-07, 00:04 | Link #2436 |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
|
To be fair. The ending of the TV series is debated intensely. There are clues to suggest that both endings play out concurrently, but there are reasonable arguments to say that Shinji did accept instrumentality. This is especially so considering how surreal the ending scene was with the congratulations at the end.
Personally I subscribe to both happening at the same time, and are the same ending... But I can see the logic in thinking otherwise.
__________________
|
2010-07-07, 00:17 | Link #2437 |
Gregory House
IT Support
|
Well, I certainly don't see it at all... Unless our understanding of what the Instrumentality represents differ. "I want to exist!", "I want to stay here!". Those words, together with all the development the voices inside his head work throughout the final episode, which mirrors the development in EoE, pretty much shows us that Shinji doesn't want to become the One. He wants to stay himself, separated from the Others. Which is pretty much what he does in the movie when he rejects Instrumentality.
There's loads of stuff that justify that. The fact that he creates his own world. The fact that we see an alternate reality, brought about by his own volition. Instead of devolving into an uniform mass, devoid of any will whatsoever, instead of becoming and object, he chooses to remain a subject -- a free subject, a free consciousness that will shape his own future.
__________________
|
2010-07-07, 01:21 | Link #2438 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
|
Well a thread that discusses this a tiny bit is http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic....=asc&start=120.
Some people go as far as to say that in Evangelion, everything was made up in Shinji's mind, and that the congratulations at the end is simply him acknowledging reality. Here's an excerpt from a poster there for example. Quote:
What is Canon? Common Misconceptions in Evangelion
__________________
|
|
2010-07-07, 22:01 | Link #2439 |
Minmay Guard
Join Date: May 2009
|
I gotta say (as I believe I said before), I'm with Reckoner on this one. There are enough good arguments on both sides of the EoTV/EoE same-ending/different-ending debate that I think taking a firm stance one way or another is rather silly.
Personally, I *like* to believe they are different endings...primarily because Eva is (naturally) a work of fiction. Having two different endings makes it very clearly fictional, and thus points out the absurdity of the question, "But what REALLY happened?" That said, I *can* easily argue that the endings are different, but I'd simply be using the arguments from the EvaOtaku site. And I know all the arguments for why they are the same ending. They can be compelling, but ultimately, it comes down to which persuasive arguments you choose to believe. |
2010-07-07, 22:13 | Link #2440 | |||
Gregory House
IT Support
|
Quote:
Quote:
Also, there's no contradiction between the characters speaking to Shinji not being really characters, but just his imagination, his individual image of each character, and what I just wrote. In fact, I strongly believe it's all in his mind. Heck, in EoE every character speaking to Shinji during the final scenes (excepting perhaps Rei, depending on your interpretation) is a product of his imagination. That doesn't make Shinji less of an individual -- in fact, it makes him more so. Quote:
(*) Though I would actually go ahead and argument that both endings depict exactly the same events, but that's besides the point. PS: I should really sit down one day and write an article on this stuff or something.
__________________
Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2010-07-07 at 22:30. |
|||
Tags |
movie, remake |
|
|