[MANGA] Espadas' Ranking

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Anubis62

Except the fact that they "all BUT" spell it out is all I'm trying to say.
And I suppose it's completely stupid to believe Aizen is anything but a VL?

It's examples like this that make it hard to take you seriously. Because unlike Barry and Stark, there is no good official evidence to suggest Aizen to be a VL. There's only an overwhelming amount of evidence that points to the contrary.

Originally Posted by Anubis62

Just because someone's powerful doesn't automatically mean they're a VL.

Is that honestly the only reason you think I have for believing Barry and Stark are VL's? Fine then. Let's go over the facts behind what we know about VL's in the first place.
1.) They are hollow
2.) They reside in the depths of Hueco Mundo
3.) They are more powerful than Adjuchas
4.) They have humanoid appearances

Now lets compare them with other facts we know about Barry and Stark
1.) He's a hollow
2.) Barry lived where las noches is--in the depths of HM
3.) Barry had a humanoid form prior to meeting Aizen and becoming an Arrancar
4.) Barry was more powerful than adjuchas lvl menos and ruled over them as such. He basically fit all of the descriptions of a VL perfectly. Besides, he'd be a complete fool to declare himself king over other hollow without having become a VL first. Only an idiot would still believe in the possibility that he's not a VL just because it was never directly stated.

Now lets look at Stark
1.) Also a hollow
2.) He had a humanoid appearance prior to meeting Aizen and becoming an arrancar
3.) His reiatsu was apparently so great he incidentally wiped out any hollow who got near him and remained alone for quite sometime because of it.
4.) His reiatsu ranked him #1 over Barry as a result.
Once again, we have enough reasons to come to the conclusion that he's a VL. About the only legit reasons we have to believe he's not a VL is because it was never directly stated. So when you compare all the proof there is to support the fact that he is a VL vs all the proof we have to suggest he isn't, coming to a safe conclusion on the matter is quite possible despite the fact that they don't spell it out for you.

Originally Posted by Anubis62

All you are doing by admitting that it's "all but said" is strengthening my point.

All you're doing by trying to apply this logic to all of these instances is making yourself sound ridiculous.

If I were to abide by your logic, it would be wrong for a student learning math to ever assume 1+1=2 just because the answer was "all but said" by their teacher. They could have numerous reasons to believe the answer is 2 while having little to no reasons to believe the answer is anything else, but it would still be wrong for them to make such an assumption. Their answer is only proven correct after it's officially spelled out and confirmed by the authoritative figure on the matter. That's essentially the logic you're trying to advocate. Seriously, in life, absolute answers aren't always going to be handed to you. So to always wait on such a thing would be silly. If you have justifiable reasons to arrive at your own answers in the mean time, then there's nothing wrong with believing in them until proven otherwise.

Originally Posted by Anubis62

Except that's still relying on "belief through the lack of non-proof". A fallacy.
Are you following along at all?

I should ask you that same question. There's plenty of proof to be seen in this case:
1.) The adjuchas surpassed a VL when he became an arrancar
2.) Hallibel surpassed the adjuchas who defeated her and grew strong enough to rank #3 amongst the strongest Arrancar. So the proof's there. The strength boost she gained was indeed significant as I implied it would be. I shouldn't have to go into this. It's as if you're intentionally trying to ignore the obvious for the sole sake of making your point. Pretty counterproductive IMO.

Originally Posted by Anubis62

The only way my "witty" remark sounds dumb is because it is something you, by default, would have to accept based upon your argument.

Sorry, but your remarks sound dumb because they are.

[secretzfan]

Is that honestly the only reason you think I have for believing Barry and Stark are VL's? Fine then. Let's go over the facts behind what we know about VL's in the first place.
1.) They are hollow
2.) They reside in the depths of Hueco Mundo
3.) They are more powerful than Adjuchas
4.) They have humanoid appearances

Now lets compare them with other facts we know about Barry and Stark
1.) He's a hollow
2.) Barry lived where las noches is--in the depths of HM
3.) Barry had a humanoid form prior to meeting Aizen and becoming an Arrancar
4.) Barry was more powerful than adjuchas lvl menos and ruled over them as such. He basically fit all of the descriptions of a VL perfectly. Besides, he'd be a complete fool to declare himself king over other hollow without having become a VL first. Only an idiot would still believe in the possibility that he's not a VL just because it was never directly stated.

Now lets look at Stark
1.) Also a hollow
2.) He had a humanoid appearance prior to meeting Aizen and becoming an arrancar
3.) His reiatsu was apparently so great he incidentally wiped out any hollow who got near him and remained alone for quite sometime because of it.
4.) His reiatsu ranked him #1 over Barry as a result.
Once again, we have enough reasons to come to the conclusion that he's a VL. About the only legit reasons we have to believe he's not a VL is because it was never directly stated. So when you compare all the proof there is to support the fact that he is a VL vs all the proof we have to suggest he isn't, coming to a safe conclusion on the matter is quite possible despite the fact that they don't spell it out for you.

This caught my eye. This is exactly something I would say to prove Starrk and Barragan are VL besides looking human as all arrancar look human but Starrk by his past we only saw him in a human appearance so I'd agree after all they match the VL descrption perfectly and in a mater of reatsu Starrk likey outclasses Barragan who is the king of HM which is shocking .

10 Vasto Lorde. I hear nothing in that scene about Arrancar. Simply Menos Evolutions

.
Beside when Aizen said 10 arrancar when they showed Aizen's arrancar, but this simply mean Tite planned for there to be 10 VL but changed his mind so he could protect the heroes. Sadly Tite only kills heroes in filler never cannon.

[demonkevy666]

protect the heroes. Sadly Tite only kills heroes in filler never cannon.[/QUOTE]

WTF does that even mean ?

sorry I'm sick of seeing people wrtie it anymore >_>

[Kafriel]

Cannon is a weapon used to shoot cannonballs. Canon refers to canonical plot points, i.e. things that happen in the same story. For example, Amagai arc and unknown tales are not anime canon because the main story was interrupted to fit them in, any kind of special christmas chapter is not manga canon because they are specials, etc.

Starrk likey outclasses Barragan who is the self-appointed king of HM which is shocking .

fixed so that it is not as shocking.

[secretzfan]

Basically they only die in the anime never manga

[Anubis62]

Originally Posted by sayde

Once again, we have enough reasons to come to the conclusion that he's a VL. About the only legit reasons we have to believe he's not a VL is because it was never directly stated. So when you compare all the proof there is to support the fact that he is a VL vs all the proof we have to suggest he isn't, coming to a safe conclusion on the matter is quite possible despite the fact that they don't spell it out for you.

Now when did I ever say we should say that he's NOT a VL?
I am simply against stating without a doubt either way.
It's like me being a Christian; I am firmly believing in my faith, but I also admit I could very well be completely and utterly wrong about the whole thing.
That's all I'm trying to say. Please stop making it sound like I'm advocating against you; the only thing I said to start this was that "it hasn't been confirmed yet", and that "VL Level does not NECESSARILY mean VL".
I used "confirmed", "necessarily", etc.
You are the one who started this as an actual argument.

Originally Posted by sayde

All you're doing by trying to apply this logic to all of these instances is making yourself sound ridiculous.

Imagine how yours sounds. :P
Without Doubt, Faith is pointless. Some would argue that it's even more an admirable trait than Faith.

Originally Posted by sayde

If I were to abide by your logic, it would be wrong for a student learning math to ever assume 1+1=2 just because the answer was "all but said" by their teacher. They could have numerous reasons to believe the answer is 2 while having little to no reasons to believe the answer is anything else, but it would still be wrong for them to make such an assumption. Their answer is only proven correct after it's officially spelled out and confirmed by the authoritative figure on the matter. That's essentially the logic you're trying to advocate. Seriously, in life, absolute answers aren't always going to be handed to you. So to always wait on such a thing would be silly. If you have justifiable reasons to arrive at your own answers in the mean time, then there's nothing wrong with believing in them until proven otherwise.

No, it would be wrong for a student to assume that 1+1=2 if he had NEVER learned it at any time before. In your example, the student HAS learned that 1+1=2, and the Teacher is NOT the authoritative figure on the matter; merely the passer-on of knowledge; not the creator of it. Your example is invalid.
And of course there is no problem with believing in something, as long as you admit that "hey, I could be totally wrong about this BECAUSE it simply hasn't been proven.
It's like Theories vs Laws. Science fully supports Theories when there is enough evidence in favor of it, even though it hasn't been proven.

Originally Posted by sayde

Sorry, but your remarks sound dumb because they are.

There you go again with those declarative statements that you love so much.

[Anubis62]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Cannon is a weapon used to shoot cannonballs.

I find myself guilty of this embarrassing misspelling sometimes. xD

Originally Posted by Kafriel

fixed so that it is not as shocking.

Couple that with the fact that Staark has probably 0% Ambition.

("Hey, Staark! Who are you going to execute today? And what about raising the Taxes?"
"ZZZZZzzzzz....")

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by Anubis62

Couple that with the fact that Staark has probably 0% Ambition.

("Hey, Staark! Who are you going to execute today? And what about raising the Taxes?"
"ZZZZZzzzzz....")

That is so true
imagine he could have lost to Kyroaku for all we know he could have been holding back. That is another detail we forget Starrk is lazy he probably wasn't even trying

[Mr.Amazing]

Originally Posted by secretzfan

That is so true
imagine he could have lost to Kyroaku for all we know he could have been holding back. That is another detail we forget Starrk is lazy he probably wasn't even trying

Na... he released his ressurection (sp?) in hopes of getting to see a bankai up close and personal. He was trying, just got beat playing a game he wasn't prepared for.

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by Mr.Amazing

Na... he released his ressurection (sp?) in hopes of getting to see a bankai up close and personal. He was trying, just got beat playing a game he wasn't prepared for.

Yea I didn't think it was likely after he released. He was just fighting too may opponents

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Anubis62

I am simply against stating without a doubt either way.

There's no point. We have all the evidence we need to prove they are "without a doubt". You're probably among the extremely few who'd even bother to leave room for doubt on the issue just because Kubo never flat out confirmed it himself, despite all the proof Kubo's given us. Even the anime team is under the direct impression that they're Vasto Lordes.

Originally Posted by Anubis62

No, it would be wrong for a student to assume that 1+1=2 if he had NEVER learned it at any time before. In your example, the student HAS learned that 1+1=2,

Actually, when I stated

it would be wrong for a student learning math to ever assume 1+1=2 just because the answer was "all but said" by their teacher

it was meant to imply that the student in question is indeed in the process of "learning math" and therefore, has not yet been taught the answer to 1+1=2, thereby making the teacher the only authoritative figure present in the scenario. (Besides, I don't understand how you could assume such a person to know math to begin with if someone is seriously teaching them an equation of that level).

And it would seem according to you, that such a student would indeed be wrong for assuming the answer under such a circumstance--which is where we're going to continually differ in opinion. In other words, having never learned math before, it would be wrong for a student to assume that 1+1=2, even if the teacher has just provided the student with all the tools necessary to arrive at the correct answer (except for the answer itself). Which is silly.

Originally Posted by Anubis62

And of course there is no problem with believing in something, as long as you admit that "hey, I could be totally wrong about this BECAUSE it simply hasn't been proven.

Then we apparently also differ in what it takes to make something "proven" in this case. You insist I'm wrong to leave no doubt that Barry and Stark are VL's just because Kubo never said so directly in a way that leaves literally no room for misinterpretation--which is fine. Just please stop trying to convince me to take the same stance. Because I see no reason to wait on more words from Kubo before I'm completely void of doubt on the issue. We already have plenty of proof from him and his work as it is. To require even more than that almost feels like it'd be an insult to one's intelligence.

[Anubis62]

Originally Posted by sayde

There's no point. We have all the evidence we need to prove they are "without a doubt". You're probably among the extremely few who'd even bother to leave room for doubt on the issue just because Kubo never flat out confirmed it himself, despite all the proof Kubo's given us. Even the anime team is under the direct impression that they're Vasto Lordes.

Originally Posted by sayde

Then we apparently also differ in what it takes to make something "proven" in this case. You insist I'm wrong to leave no doubt that Barry and Stark are VL's just because Kubo never said so directly in a way that leaves literally no room for misinterpretation

Originally Posted by sayde

--which is fine. Just please stop trying to convince me to take the same stance. Because I see no reason to wait on more words from Kubo before I'm completely void of doubt on the issue. We already have plenty of proof from him and his work as it is. To require even more than that almost feels like it'd be an insult to one's intelligence.

Except as long as there is MORE PROOF TO BE HAD, there is also plenty of disproof to be had. If TK could come out right now and say "They were not Vasto Lorde." and the plot would stay consistent and unchanged, then there is CERTAINLY room for doubt.
If just a few words can take the theory down, then that's all it is: a theory. And BY DEFINITION of a theory, there is ALWAYS room for SOME doubt.
And if it's good enough for Science, then how can it possibly be an "insult to one's intelligence?
And remember: every time you admit to the case of "TK all but said it." you simply strengthen my point, which does indeed exist, contrary to your very first words of the post.

Originally Posted by sayde

Actually, when I stated it was meant to imply that the student in question is indeed in the process of "learning math" and therefore, has not yet been taught the answer to 1+1=2, thereby making the teacher the only authoritative figure present in the scenario. (Besides, I don't understand how you could assume such a person to know math to begin with if someone is seriously teaching them an equation of that level).

Originally Posted by sayde

And it would seem according to you, that such a student would indeed be wrong for assuming the answer under such a circumstance--which is where we're going to continually differ in opinion. In other words, having never learned math before, it would be wrong for a student to assume that 1+1=2, even if the teacher has just provided the student with all the tools necessary to arrive at the correct answer (except for the answer itself). Which is silly.

There we go again with levels.
Jokes aside, the point still stands that the teacher is not the creator of the equation, and cannot possibly say with bearing that 1+1 DOES NOT equal 2. Thus your point is not valid to begin with, regardless of how correct you are. But I will continue to pick at it anyways.

In every system, Science namely, there are points IN THE LEARNING PROCESS that one will be completely clueless of a perfectly logical solution, simply because they are not familiar with said system. Even before we learn what 1+1 equals, we are ignorant of how numbers even work in the math world. Sure we have concepts of it from daily life, but it is the transition to the system of math where we cannot speak with ANY knowledge.
And sure, IF THE STUDENT HAS BEEN PROVIDED ALL THE TOOLS. But if he is lacking a specific tool, such as what the equals-sign means, then the whole thing falls apart. Or if he learns that there was a negative one in the problem, and hasn't learned those yet.
It's only a matter of time if Kubo throws a negative one at us.
As long as he can simply state "no", and the whole story retains credibility (well, for TK's standards ) then the whole thing has inherent doubt in it. To deny that would seem an insult to one's intelligence.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Anubis62

If TK could come out right now and say "They were not Vasto Lorde." and the plot would stay consistent and unchanged, then there is CERTAINLY room for doubt.

The thing is, if KT came out and said "they (as in Barry and Stark) were not Vasto Lorde", then parts of the plot would become inconsistent and changed. Hence, there really should be no room for doubt according to you.

Originally Posted by Anubis62

If just a few words can take the theory down, then that's all it is: a theory. And BY DEFINITION of a theory, there is ALWAYS room for SOME doubt.

Between the two of us, you're the only one who still sees this as a theory in the first place. You can try to convince me otherwise all you want, but it's a waste of time.

Originally Posted by Anubis62

As long as he can simply state "no", and the whole story retains credibility (well, for TK's standards ) then the whole thing has inherent doubt in it. To deny that would seem an insult to one's intelligence.

o_O
If that's the case, then we might as well assume every single aspect of this story to be subject to theory. Afterall, if we're to go by KT's standards (which can't ever be accurately measured, predicted, or known to anyone), then we have to accept the fact that KT could "simply state no" and basically retcon anything he wants any time he wants. So it's hard to apply the laws of science and theory here.

Because the laws in science (or nature for that matter), aren't going to bend for anyone just because they want it to. On the other hand, a fictional work like Bleach can have it's laws changed and it's established history and facts altered in an instant if Kubo so wished it. Keeping this in mind, what are we supposed to do? Interpret every facet of the story as merely a theory just because it's all technically subject to change? I mean I guess you could do that if you want to, but when I read a fictional work like this, I tend to take established facts as just that--facts--(until changed).

So just because it's within Kubo's power to claim Barry and Stark aren't VL's, it doesn't necessarily make the belief that they are a theory. I know it maybe a difficult concept for you to grasp, but to me, this "theory" is merely one more fact in Kubo's work that's subject to retcon like pretty much everything else.

[Mr. DJ]

I miss Nel...

[-Suigetsu-]

Ulquiorra is far from being the strongest Espada.

[secretzfan]

/Has any one wondered about Tia's hole

[Haak]

Is that a euphamism or are you serious?

[secretzfan]

LOL someone said that it was on her breast then another said on her foot on youtube

[Kallen4life]

pretty nice and accurate analysis, I'd say

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Bleach



moar FMA rip-offs by Kubo ? xD

[secretzfan]

LOL to all that stuff but can be true