[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I was giving EXAMPLES. Saying that SOME part of the murder is faked, not EVERYTHING.

Right but that doesn't deny the possibility that they are still alive at that point in the story.i don't see any "Earth to Earth" in there though.

[AuraTwilight]

You're forgetting to account for certain Red Truths spoken.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You're forgetting to account for certain Red Truths spoken.

Still does the red truth point to the time of death of the victim? no right. Its even in the third game i think.

[AuraTwilight]

Yes, but they're true at the time spoken, which is usually done when the bodies are discovered.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

i don't think the red truth works that way though. its inconsistent with the story. for example,in episode 2 kanon reappeared even though he was declared dead by the red truth.Also in episode 3, shannon and kanon manage to meet with jessica and george despite the fact the they are already dead in the first twilight.

[AuraTwilight]

for example,in episode 2 kanon reappeared even though he was declared dead by the red truth.

And that scene didn't actually happen. For one not even the fantasy scene tries to say so since it's obviously a magical zombie.

Also in episode 3, shannon and kanon manage to meet with jessica and george despite the fact the they are already dead in the first twilight.

Kanon is a ghost and Shannon is revived from the dead with magic for like 60 seconds. How the hell does that make the Red Truth invalid at the times they're spoken?

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

And that scene didn't actually happen. For one not even the fantasy scene tries to say so since it's obviously a magical zombie.

oh right forgot that They are just lying about it.

Kanon is a ghost and Shannon is revived from the dead with magic for like 60 seconds. How the hell does that make the Red Truth invalid at the times they're spoken?

You know I actually understand the story . i know that beato just change to shannon at that time and beato just used kanon voice to talk to jessica.

The red truth was spoken during the first twilight thats why.

Well if you believe that at the time the red was spoken they are already dead.
why did Will answered with "Illusion to Illusion" only then? in all the first twilight of all games Why did he not add "Earth to Earth" if they are already dead at that time?

[AuraTwilight]

You know I actually understand the story . i know that beato just change to shannon at that time and beato just used kanon voice to talk to jessica.

The red truth was spoken during the first twilight thats why.

Well if you believe that at the time the red was spoken they are already dead.
why did Will answered with "Illusion to Illusion" only then? in all the first twilight of all games Why did he not add "Earth to Earth" if they are already dead at that time?

You're missing my point. I am fully aware that Shannon and Kanon are actually not dead. But I was just clarifying that you're ignoring that the Red Truths are time-contextual.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

what do you mean by time contextual?

[AuraTwilight]

As in, if I say "John is Dead", it doesn't matter if he was alive BEFORE I made the statement, and if he comes back to live (say, through magic), it doesn't make my red truth invalid in the past. It was true WHEN I said it.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor

Well if you believe that at the time the red was spoken they are already dead.
why did Will answered with "Illusion to Illusion" only then? in all the first twilight of all games Why did he not add "Earth to Earth" if they are already dead at that time?

I can't answer with anything better than "the author whimsy with word choice", since Will uses "Illusions to illusions" alone, when both would be appropriate, several times. Fore example, Will solves Turn's 1st and 2nd Twilight with "Illusions to illusions".

However, we know for sure, that at least all of the parents are DEFINITELY dead when Rosa opens the chapel. There is the ever-so-slight possibility of Jessica faking her death in her bedroom, but that wouldn't solve anything, it'd just make it alot more confusing.

Also, it should be noted that Shannon and Kanon are very special cases by Beatrice's definition of "dead". In regards to everyone else, at the very least, we can go all Meta and say "When Kyrie's death is confirmed in red, we know her body is dead, as no other characters are associated with that single physical body."

What I'm saying is that Will's use of "earth to earth" is a little inconsistent, and you probably shouldn't take it as the absolute word on death in each case.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

I get it now.SO It means that Victim was killed by different person way before the first twilight began and yasu just used the corpses for the ceremony.
that make sense for "illusion to illusion" thing

the "earth to earth" i think means that the victim was killed on the spot.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Kealym

I can't answer with anything better than "the author whimsy with word choice", since Will uses "Illusions to illusions" alone, when both would be appropriate, several times. Fore example, Will solves Turn's 1st and 2nd Twilight with "Illusions to illusions".

One thing I considered is that the two slogans lead us closer to a different thing than the truth of the individual Episodes. What is actually marked as "Earth to Earth"?

• EP2: 4th, 5th, 6th twilight (Shannon, Gohda, George)
• EP3: 2nd twilight (Rosa, Maria)
• EP3: 4th, 5th, 6th twilight (Rudolph, Hideyoshi, Kyrie)
• EP3: 7th, 8th twilight (Krauss, Natsuhi)

Then we have the characters who die in "Earth to Earth. Illusion to Illusion".

• EP2: 7th, 8th twilight (Nanjô, Kumasawa)
• EP4: 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th twilight (Kanon, Shannon, Nanjô, Krauss, Kyrie)
• EP4: 9th twilight (nobody survives - Kumasawa, Gohda, Maria, Battler)

What I find interesting is, that there is no double character in "Earth to Earth" and those who are part "Earth to Earth" could have at least been perceived that way. If we consider that there might not have been actuall planned and controlled Epitaph murders on the island, this might lead us closer to the truth.

[Crontica]

Throughout all the spoilers i've read, it appears that the canon pairing was actually Yasu x Battler, because Kanon / Shannon / Beatrice are all aliases.

Adding more light to the fact that Battler cannot remember the promise because he can't remember her face.

Natsumi and Rosa both talk about losing people over a cliff, they could both be in cahoots with this Yasu incident.

[Eriko 556]

Originally Posted by Renall

Half of those things are completely unverifiable though. So it becomes an either/or of "these things are true or a bunch of people I trusted told me some completely messed up things for their own ends." Or possibly both, if hearing true things from Genji and Nanjo utterly destroys her faith in them.

I think everyone is forgetting something: Normaly these incest's children born with a variety of genetic problems. We can see that Yasuda is perfect on his/her outside, but this doesn't mean Yasuda's mind is sane.

Yasuda probably has some mental problem since his/her born due to be child of incest. Mix this with all his/her problems and then you have a perfect recipe for a crazy murderer.

[AuraTwilight]

That's dumb. That's extremely dumb.

Incest doesn't make you 'Crazy', it makes you retarded, and given how intelligent Yasu is, I think we can rest assured that she doesn't have any mental defects. Given Lion's existence, she doesn't seem to have any defects aside from seeming underdeveloped and androgynous, which makes sense since she's only first-generation incest.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

That's dumb. That's extremely dumb.

Incest doesn't make you 'Crazy', it makes you retarded, and given how intelligent Yasu is, I think we can rest assured that she doesn't have any mental defects. Given Lion's existence, she doesn't seem to have any defects aside from seeming underdeveloped and androgynous, which makes sense since she's only first-generation incest.

Ehm... technically inbreeding leads to a higher probability of congenital birth defects.

It doesn't insure a child born out incest will be retarded. He might have other genetical problems which can lead to mental illness or to intelligence deficy or to physical or immunitarian deficy though... or he can be sane.

For all we know she could be merely suffering of dyslexia (it comes to my mind because it had been recently confirmed it can be due to genetic nature) which wouldn't surely push her to cause a mass murder as well as sociopathic as well as sane.

In short her being born from incest doesn't insure she's a dangerous sociopath more than any other people who's not born out of incest.

[AuraTwilight]

Exactly my point, really.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by haguruma

One thing I considered is that the two slogans lead us closer to a different thing than the truth of the individual Episodes. What is actually marked as "Earth to Earth"?

• EP2: 4th, 5th, 6th twilight (Shannon, Gohda, George)
• EP3: 2nd twilight (Rosa, Maria)
• EP3: 4th, 5th, 6th twilight (Rudolph, Hideyoshi, Kyrie)
• EP3: 7th, 8th twilight (Krauss, Natsuhi)

Then we have the characters who die in "Earth to Earth. Illusion to Illusion".

• EP2: 7th, 8th twilight (Nanjô, Kumasawa)
• EP4: 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th twilight (Kanon, Shannon, Nanjô, Krauss, Kyrie)
• EP4: 9th twilight (nobody survives - Kumasawa, Gohda, Maria, Battler)

What I find interesting is, that there is no double character in "Earth to Earth" and those who are part "Earth to Earth" could have at least been perceived that way. If we consider that there might not have been actuall planned and controlled Epitaph murders on the island, this might lead us closer to the truth.

I theorize that Will is speaking in terms of corpses which lead to the type of murder committed: "Earth to Earth" meaning there are dead bodies thus an actual murder was committed and "Illusion to Illusion" meaning that the murder was faked. I also noticed a pattern in the chart you gave and think that the overall truth of Umineko is that the murders started off as a giant setup or prank until somebody actually starts killing people. The first and Second Twilights are generally set ups and the murders don't begin until the 4th twilight. The only exception being EP2's Second Twilight.

[DukeLawliet]

Um, I recently finished it, can I join the discussion please..?