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Jan-Poo · 2010-06-06, 13:57

Can't be 100% certain, but i think the odds are in favor of this being canon.

Clearly Ryukishi didn't supervise the whole anime, but he did was available to answer any question. Why would Deen make up stuff when all they needed to do was asking to Ryukishi what Ange saw in Kawabata's house?

Thunder Book · 2010-06-06, 14:29

Didn't they also change where corpses ended up and where people died in Episode 4?

That's mostly reason why I'm iffy with Deen on the whole issue if they screw things like this up.

LyricalAura · 2010-06-06, 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder Book

Didn't they also change where corpses ended up and where people died in Episode 4?

That's mostly reason why I'm iffy with Deen on the whole issue if they screw things like this up.

Well, at least as far as magic scenes go, the only corpse that was moved in the anime was Kyrie's. In the game she was found in a guest room, but in the anime she supposedly died in the kitchen. I don't think it's really a significant change, though... Even though the kitchen has a door with no lock, the fact that she died in a locked room in the game was insignificant due to the number of missing master keys.

ShikiGamiLD · 2010-06-06, 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Well, at least as far as magic scenes go, the only corpse that was moved in the anime was Kyrie's. In the game she was found in a guest room, but in the anime she supposedly died in the kitchen. I don't think it's really a significant change, though... Even though the kitchen has a door with no lock, the fact that she died in a locked room in the game was insignificant due to the number of missing master keys.

The anime was under the supervision of Ryukishi. The staff already stated that on the "Radio of the Golden Witch" and on the DVD commentaries. Also, I already knew that was what Ange found because of this:

Ange said that It was magic, and magic without love cannot be seen.
Towards the end of EP4 Ange revives Sakutaro in front of Maria, even when Beatrice already stated that Rosa needs to accept Sakutaro existence for it to exist in Maria's world, and also she said in red that nobody can do magic on her golden land, in other words, it was impossible for Ange to revive Sakutaro by herself.

Then the only solution I could find was that Rosa repaired Sakutaro 6 years ago, and was planing to give it to Maria on the island, but that never happened because of the incident of Rokkenjima, and that Ange found it.
And is the only thing that makes sense for that scene.

And now I confirmed it on the Anime ;3, so at least I believe it is canon.

DgBarca · 2010-06-07, 02:04

There is also an extra TIP that prouves it.

Also

Quote:

Originally Posted by DgBarca

Sorry to talk about something else but...
I have an acutal in-game clue for Kanon being the murderer of Eva and Hideyoshi :

Spoiler for Huge:

EP4 anyone ?
(also this, LORD..."LORD U" anyone ?)

I think this is pretty interesting.
First, we can interpret this as "Someone cut the chain" but with EP4, we really see Kanon cut IRON BARS in a magical scene.

Now, EP4 is named "Alliance of the Golden Witch"
Alliance...with who ? I don't think it's Battler and Ange, maybe...Battler and Beato, it's te aliance OF THE GOLDEN WITCH after all...Ange-Beatrice ? FFF...
IMO, it's with Battler. Since EP3 Tea Party, Beatrice is feeling cornered by Lambda and Bern, so in EP4 she puts a huge number of tips through magical scene that are dealing with the mysteries of the previous EP and thus make the tale solvable.
It would also explain why Beato let Battler win the Tea Party battle : she preferred to be "killed" by Battler than being trapped by the b...witches.

Maria sure is right, this magic circle gives the power of observation,discernment, inspiration and intuition, and gives a solution that I hadn't even thought until then.

It sounds like a pretty standart theory...but...now I(we) need to look at the magical scenes in a different way.

Sniesk · 2010-06-07, 05:20

I think the "Alliance" in the title refers to the Mariage Sorciere, the witch alliance formed by Beatrice, Maria and Virgilia (Ange was in that Alliance too for a short time). Ep4 is actually centered around that.

Jan-Poo · 2010-06-07, 08:52

It's definitely mariage sorciere.

DgBarca · 2010-06-07, 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It's definitely mariage sorciere.

Even if it is the Mariage Sorcière (yay French /o/), it doesn't mean that Beato didn't put extra tips in the whole EP4

Xeles · 2010-06-10, 11:41

Sorry to derail the current line of discussion a bit, but I have a quick question:
Did Krauss already know about Kuwadorian's existence at the start of each game?

After rereading the Episode 3 family conference a few times, I came across this..

Spoiler:

I can't find anymore hints other than the resemblence in the names of the secluded mansion and Toraian, which Battler pointed out as well. Just a thought, but if Krauss really had found Kuwadorian while conducting an assessment of the island, then he should be aware of its interior and any pathways to and from the main mansion.

Thunder Book · 2010-06-10, 20:35

Perhaps the fantasy scenes with Krauss and co. locked in a cage under Kuwadorian can actually be interpreted as them being the culprits and simply having a base of operations in Kuwadorian.

I mean, if we think Krauss knows of Kuwadorian's existence.

Jan-Poo · 2010-06-10, 20:57

I've always been in favor of the idea that Krauss can't possibly have missed Kuwadorian.

There's a port just near it, the house is surrounded by a garden making it an easy spot to see from above, and there's a big and very long fence surrounding it

Add to that that Krauss made investigation on the territory of the island.... and I can't really fathom how could it even remotely possible that Krauss doesn't know of that mansion's existence.

Thunder Book · 2010-06-10, 22:04

Would there be any reason for Krauss to want to hide Kuwadorian's existence? The only things I can think of as to why are:

1) He's a culprit and has resources there
2) He thinks this would give credence to the idea of Kinzo having an affair and a child with another woman, and that this could lead to issues with the inheritance.

Any other thoughts?

J the Drafter · 2010-06-10, 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder Book

Would there be any reason for Krauss to want to hide Kuwadorian's existence? The only things I can think of as to why are:

1) He's a culprit and has resources there
2) He thinks this would give credence to the idea of Kinzo having an affair and a child with another woman, and that this could lead to issues with the inheritance.

Any other thoughts?

Kuwadorian might be tied somehow to the gold he wants to find and secondly, why tell anyone about it? What can Krauss gain from telling anyone about Kuwadorian?

Thunder Book · 2010-06-11, 03:05

Random thought: maybe we're looking at this wrong.

Krauss wouldn't have any reason to lie about having financial problems... There's no way he'd actually be financially secure... right?

Jan-Poo · 2010-06-11, 07:10

A little reminder, because I think this discussion is dangerously closing to a spoiler area (but it didn't go there yet), this is EP4 thread.

Anyway about why Krauss doesn't want to tell about Kuwadorian... it could be either because he thinks that Kuwadorian is somehow related to the gold (although he certainly didn't find it), or because he doesn't want to let that secret spread not even among his siblings, or simply because Krauss thinks that everything that he knows and his siblings do not can be used to his advantage (although he later learns that Rosa knows).

neeTHREE · 2010-08-03, 11:03

Okay, this is my first time posting on the forums so greetings to you all fellow Umineko fans.

I've watched the complete anime series of the franchise and played the first three games (currently in the middle of the fourth one) but there are a few things that havent been made clear at all to me. Whether it's Ryukishi's fault, intended or not, or mine, I can't tell. Hopefully some of you could enlighten me a bit...

The whole gameboard and Meta-World thing is confusing me to the maximum.

Are different game boards different worlds, as in Higurashi? If yes, what happens to a world after Beatrice's game is over? Where does SHE go, rather. She is supposed to have a home-world, right? I'll be assuming that it's the first world where Episode 1 took place. After Kinzo attached her soul to the homunculus and she died, her soul was released onto Rokkenjima for a few decades, until she performed her ceremony to be resurrected. But since she started that game with Battler and they started shifting through game boards/worlds, things are getting twisted...

I've got way to many questions such as what happened to Virgilia in Ep3 when EVA's Siestas 'killed' her. She had clearly stated she wasn't a piece on the board any longer, so how did she manage to get in there - let alone be killed?

Anyway... Seems like I'm further confusing myself this way...

It's useless... IT'S ALL USELESS!

UsagiTenpura · 2010-08-03, 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by neeTHREE

Are different game boards different worlds, as in Higurashi? If yes, what happens to a world after Beatrice's game is over? Where does SHE go, rather. She is supposed to have a home-world, right? I'll be assuming that it's the first world where Episode 1 took place. After Kinzo attached her soul to the homunculus and she died, her soul was released onto Rokkenjima for a few decades, until she performed her ceremony to be resurrected. But since she started that game with Battler and they started shifting through game boards/worlds, things are getting twisted...

There's no clear answer to that. It's really up to personal view at this point. However I guess a few theories...

It could be Kakeras such as Higurashi. However that seems very unlikely so far, simply because bottles containing the letters explaining various arcs seems to exists in every arc's future.

The I believe most accepted version for now, is that each arc is only a tale. Remember to the external world the arcs exists as message bottles. It has no "true" value, however since no one knows what really happened on Rokkenjima, and all these tales were "possible ways" for it to have happened, there's no way to discard them. This comes in two variation in a way. One is that the "present" is the future that follows Rokkenjima, and the other is that the events of "real Rokkenjima" are either occurring in the present or haven't occurred yet.

As for the meta-world I don't think anyone can fully answer that yet. Personally I see it as a representation of basic concepts, sorta as the very incarnation of the reader vs writer battle.

Jan-Poo · 2010-08-03, 12:10

Welcome to purgatory neethree

First off, the gameboard and the metaworld are two separate things. You can think of the gameboard as the stage and the metaworld as the backstage. Usually metaworld places can be distinguished from the gameboard places because they have that purplish light and swirls.

As for what the gameboards are, there are mainly two different theories, one is that they are "kakera" a la Higurashi. In other words alternate realities.
However since EP5 and even more with EP6 a completely different theory has become dominant, but it's better if you learn about that at least after you read EP5.

Don't worry too much about magic, it is commonly accepted that the magic explanations do not make much sense once you think deep about them. It is probably done so by Ryuukishi so by noticing that you understand that the "fantasy" perspective isn't really going to explain anything.

About Virgilia in EP3, she was killed by Beatrice actually, but of course later you learn that it was just a charade. Beatrice however was killed by the siestas, but notice that both Virgilia and Beatrice were simply killed as pieces on the gameboard, they are still alive and well in the metaworld... if it's allright to say that metacharacters are "alive". It's probably better to say that metacharacters exist.

neeTHREE · 2010-08-03, 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Welcome to purgatory neethree

Thank you, please don't kill me now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

It could be Kakeras such as Higurashi. However that seems very unlikely so far, simply because bottles containing the letters explaining various arcs seems to exists in every arc's future.

The I believe most accepted version for now, is that each arc is only a tale. Remember to the external world the arcs exists as message bottles. It has no "true" value, however since no one knows what really happened on Rokkenjima, and all these tales were "possible ways" for it to have happened, there's no way to discard them. This comes in two variation in a way. One is that the "present" is the future that follows Rokkenjima, and the other is that the events of "real Rokkenjima" are either occurring in the present or haven't occurred yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Welcome to purgatory neethree
As for what the gameboards are, there are mainly two different theories, one is that they are "kakera" a la Higurashi. In other words alternate realities.
However since EP5 and even more with EP6 a completely different theory has become dominant, but it's better if you learn about that at least after you read EP5.

Uh-huh...
Seems like the Kakera theory is pretty much ruled out then. In all honesty, this makes a lot more sense. At least some things are a bit more clear now.
(...though we've reached a point of accepting such beclouding things as sensible, lol.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Don't worry too much about magic, it is commonly accepted that the magic explanations do not make much sense once you think deep about them. It is probably done so by Ryuukishi so by noticing that you understand that the "fantasy" perspective isn't really going to explain anything.

Bleh, magic! Who'd believe such an absurd thing anyway? Witches don't exist... right?

Anyhow, seems like I should catch up with the latest games to understand it a little better eh... I'll probably wait a couple of weeks and buy episode 7. Either way, thank you both for your quick replies. Helped me a lot!

neeTHREE · 2010-08-08, 16:32

Firstly, sorry about the double post. I thought about posting this in Bernkastel's thread but the restrictions prompted me to post here...

What are the latest theories on her?

Spoiler:

2010-06-06, 13:57	Link #4501
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Can't be 100% certain, but i think the odds are in favor of this being canon. Clearly Ryukishi didn't supervise the whole anime, but he did was available to answer any question. Why would Deen make up stuff when all they needed to do was asking to Ryukishi what Ange saw in Kawabata's house? __________________

2010-06-07, 08:52	Link #4507
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	It's definitely mariage sorciere. __________________

2010-06-10, 20:57	Link #4511
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	I've always been in favor of the idea that Krauss can't possibly have missed Kuwadorian. There's a port just near it, the house is surrounded by a garden making it an easy spot to see from above, and there's a big and very long fence surrounding it Add to that that Krauss made investigation on the territory of the island.... and I can't really fathom how could it even remotely possible that Krauss doesn't know of that mansion's existence. __________________

2010-06-11, 07:10	Link #4515
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	A little reminder, because I think this discussion is dangerously closing to a spoiler area (but it didn't go there yet), this is EP4 thread. Anyway about why Krauss doesn't want to tell about Kuwadorian... it could be either because he thinks that Kuwadorian is somehow related to the gold (although he certainly didn't find it), or because he doesn't want to let that secret spread not even among his siblings, or simply because Krauss thinks that everything that he knows and his siblings do not can be used to his advantage (although he later learns that Rosa knows). __________________

2010-08-03, 12:10	Link #4518
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Welcome to purgatory neethree First off, the gameboard and the metaworld are two separate things. You can think of the gameboard as the stage and the metaworld as the backstage. Usually metaworld places can be distinguished from the gameboard places because they have that purplish light and swirls. As for what the gameboards are, there are mainly two different theories, one is that they are "kakera" a la Higurashi. In other words alternate realities. However since EP5 and even more with EP6 a completely different theory has become dominant, but it's better if you learn about that at least after you read EP5. Don't worry too much about magic, it is commonly accepted that the magic explanations do not make much sense once you think deep about them. It is probably done so by Ryuukishi so by noticing that you understand that the "fantasy" perspective isn't really going to explain anything. About Virgilia in EP3, she was killed by Beatrice actually, but of course later you learn that it was just a charade. Beatrice however was killed by the siestas, but notice that both Virgilia and Beatrice were simply killed as pieces on the gameboard, they are still alive and well in the metaworld... if it's allright to say that metacharacters are "alive". It's probably better to say that metacharacters exist. __________________

2010-06-06, 14:29	Link #4502
Thunder Book Endless Member Join Date: Oct 2009	Didn't they also change where corpses ended up and where people died in Episode 4? That's mostly reason why I'm iffy with Deen on the whole issue if they screw things like this up.

2010-06-07, 05:20	Link #4506
Sniesk It's Hammertime! Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Italy (Neaples)	I think the "Alliance" in the title refers to the Mariage Sorciere, the witch alliance formed by Beatrice, Maria and Virgilia (Ange was in that Alliance too for a short time). Ep4 is actually centered around that.

2010-06-10, 20:35	Link #4510
Thunder Book Endless Member Join Date: Oct 2009	Perhaps the fantasy scenes with Krauss and co. locked in a cage under Kuwadorian can actually be interpreted as them being the culprits and simply having a base of operations in Kuwadorian. I mean, if we think Krauss knows of Kuwadorian's existence.

2010-06-10, 22:04	Link #4512
Thunder Book Endless Member Join Date: Oct 2009	Would there be any reason for Krauss to want to hide Kuwadorian's existence? The only things I can think of as to why are: 1) He's a culprit and has resources there 2) He thinks this would give credence to the idea of Kinzo having an affair and a child with another woman, and that this could lead to issues with the inheritance. Any other thoughts?

2010-06-11, 03:05	Link #4514
Thunder Book Endless Member Join Date: Oct 2009	Random thought: maybe we're looking at this wrong. Krauss wouldn't have any reason to lie about having financial problems... There's no way he'd actually be financially secure... right?

2010-08-03, 11:03	Link #4516
neeTHREE The Game Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Cyprus Age: 28	Okay, this is my first time posting on the forums so greetings to you all fellow Umineko fans. I've watched the complete anime series of the franchise and played the first three games (currently in the middle of the fourth one) but there are a few things that havent been made clear at all to me. Whether it's Ryukishi's fault, intended or not, or mine, I can't tell. Hopefully some of you could enlighten me a bit... The whole gameboard and Meta-World thing is confusing me to the maximum. Are different game boards different worlds, as in Higurashi? If yes, what happens to a world after Beatrice's game is over? Where does SHE go, rather. She is supposed to have a home-world, right? I'll be assuming that it's the first world where Episode 1 took place. After Kinzo attached her soul to the homunculus and she died, her soul was released onto Rokkenjima for a few decades, until she performed her ceremony to be resurrected. But since she started that game with Battler and they started shifting through game boards/worlds, things are getting twisted... I've got way to many questions such as what happened to Virgilia in Ep3 when EVA's Siestas 'killed' her. She had clearly stated she wasn't a piece on the board any longer, so how did she manage to get in there - let alone be killed? Anyway... Seems like I'm further confusing myself this way... It's useless... IT'S ALL USELESS!

2010-08-08, 16:32	Link #4520
neeTHREE The Game Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Cyprus Age: 28	Firstly, sorry about the double post. I thought about posting this in Bernkastel's thread but the restrictions prompted me to post here... What are the latest theories on her? Spoiler: Since I started Umineko I was familiar with the whole Bernkastel-is-the-collective-consciousness-of-all-the-Rikas-that-existed-and-is-also-Frederica. However, lately I've read a few other theories, such as her being Meta-Rika, instead of a more 'Rika's database' like character, or even that she's not Frederica, the one who writes the poems, but a totally different being.