Rozen Maiden ~ Ouvertüre ~ Discussion Thread

[Kageitenshi]

Not to entirely copy from an earlier post in which I at least tried to explain what it is about characters, such as Gin-sama, that I particularly like... but anyhow trying to better articulate the reasons behind it all.

1) First and foremost: She's a LOT like myself, save for relative lack of self control, but just about all the characteristics Cal listed
2) Like Cal said: anti-hypocrite rooted in ruthlesness
3) She still has a "warm heart" as opposed to the ice-queen Barasuishou
4) Overall character design and complexity all the way from name and clothing to her deeply passionate personality
5) B - e - a - u - t - i - f - u - l !!!! Totally and absolutely so, don't give me that "but she's a doll ffs?!?" - crap. One of the rare few light-shade-haired characters that I actually think look stunning with the color, since I'm totally into dark hair...

Suppose that's quite enough of a reason already... though, I'm not stuck on staring at the imaginary good / evil axis of things, so I'm not biased in thinking that Gin-sama would be evil or sth. She's merely employing the means given to her to play the game when there doesn't seem to be any rules regarding etiquette.

- Truly, those who are the most selfish and ruthless employ all means necessary to get what they want... Even if it means to be considerate and polite towards others. Then again, it's so much easier to just use brute force to enforce your will since pen alone isn't mightier than the sword. It all depends on who's telling what and to whom, since some people just understand only one language - violence

[doriantm]

I just watched Ouverture, and my initial impression is that Suigintou is most like the Teutonic caricature - either at your feet or at your throat.

[Lost]

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

Ahahaha... funny thing is, I didn't even know there was a Rozen Maiden OAV out until last night.

OMG, Cal, was it my signature, was it my sig that led you to the light!!?? Jk.

I can't quite explain why these characters, including Gin-Sama, enjoy the high leve of popularity within their respective realms. Is it simply their cool character designs and complex personalities? Or is there some innate desire (particularly within males) which admires decisive action and "bad-assery" in general? Are we drawn to these characters, these Black Knights, because of their disruptive effect on the convenient (some would say archaic) black-versus-white moral scheme?

I hope this will invite other forums to articulate their thoughts on the matter; or more simply, just why do people like Gin-sama?

I'd say your last point makes the most sense to me; how, yes, these conflicted characters bring a certain amount of complexity to what would be an otherwise simplified conflict (Sorta like Nobuca did in NTHT). That's why Ouverture was good, because it introduced us to the history of Gin that we would never known other wise; revealing a whole new meaning to her present character, attitude.

Also, I think that it is natural for humans to root for those they perceive as on the losing end; almost like the underdog. And to be sure, Suigintou has gone through a lot of suffering, and has gotten the most crap, really, to get where she has in present time, at Megu's side. In that, she is already like the underdog that emerges successful and maybe that is what some see and like in her. Also, the fact that her journey hasn't ended, and she has much to overcome, moves them to root even more for her. Well, I could be wrong.

And well, it's my personal hope against that more good can emerge from her.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Lost

Also, I think that it is natural for humans to root for those they perceive as on the losing end; almost like the underdog. And to be sure, Suigintou has gone through a lot of suffering, and has gotten the most crap, really, to get where she has in present time, at Megu's side. In that, she is already like the underdog that emerges successful and maybe that is what some see and like in her. Also, the fact that her journey hasn't ended, and she has much to overcome, moves them to root even more for her. Well, I could be wrong.

And well, it's my personal hope against that more good can emerge from her.

I really like the way you presented Gin's situation in RMO, you presented a very negative situation in a very positive way I like it a lot

But in regards to the question why do I like Gin... Hmmm thats a hard one, as each of their characters grow throughout each series with Ouverture really setting the foundation for Gin's character. Which means my feelings for Gin have swung around quite a bit (in a good way).

Hmmm from S1 to thinking wow she's efil (the way she used Sou's medium and messed with Jun's mind and various other scenes) to thinking she's rather pitiful when she dies....

"While Father was making her, he erased her design"

Then with S2, I know many people were wondering how they were going to bring Gin back and who was going to be the villian, but they did a darn good job neh?

With S2 and her interactions with Megu and the reason why she was collecting the Rosa Mystica really impressed me. Not just what she was doing, but they way she did it, she kept so in character, which is one of the things I like so much about Rozen Maiden, no one's characters suddenly change or miraculously heals (Jun for example). If we could see Gin's tree right now, I would say that in the cold snowy dark land scape full of broken dolls a sapling is sprouting through her relationship with Megu (and maybe a touch of Shinku's apology). I personally don't think her love for Rozen has been that much of a benefit for her or any of the dolls (apart from animating her in the first place).

"On that feeling alone she acted without a medium"

RMO I feel made it difficult for people to really understand Gin (sorry everyone ), the reason why I say this is, it gave an easy target of blaming Shinku for Gin's problems. Gin striking out at Shinku I can understand, but for Gin fans to do so I feel undermines the depth of Gin's character. I really like Lost's POV of RMO as that adds to Gin and I feel the same way about RMO too and I feel it adds to Gin by seeing how much she grows throughout the series. I can't help but feel excited to see more of RM, for all of the maidens (and hopefully to see the BB boil in a pot)

[Lost]

Originally Posted by grey

RMO I feel made it difficult for people to really understand Gin (sorry everyone ), the reason why I say this is, it gave an easy target of blaming Shinku for Gin's problems.

Certainly it did; and it requires insight to see past that to the fact that there was more than Shinku at fault; although granted she was the spark that made Gin really go berserk, that's different from being blamed entirely. I will always maintain that Gin was somewhat unbalanced from the start. No doubt that contributed much to her reaction towards Shinku; coming to the abrupt conclusion that Shinku was slighting her and acting on it.

(Jun's character change/development is one of the best I've seen, honestly.)

Mmm I smell Rabbit cooking!

[Deathkillz]

well that was shinku in the past...so she deserved some of the blame for having such a stuck up attitude towards being daddy's favorite ~ but she has redeemed herself for noticing the wrongs that she did so i am grateful for that ~ so in ouverture shinku is seen as the villain but times have changed since then so most of the blame is now shifted...to rozen ~ BURN!!

[Kageitenshi]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

~ so in ouverture shinku is seen as the villain but times have changed since then so most of the blame is now shifted...to rozen ~ BURN!!

Still totally and utterly fail to understand this statement...

Still, adding to Lost's statement, I'll maintain that there's a profound and well planned basis for the dolls' personalities and given traits in the way that their RMs are supposed to eventually become one, one way or another, to at least theoretically form Alice. No reason to believe or to assume that Rozen himself had planned everything from Gin x Shinku malice to Bara encounter. But it is safe to assume that he had indeed designed the dolls to have a certain "purpose" and their personality traits to fit it. Hence the outcome, though I still don't believe under these circumstances that he could have done anything to intervene with the dolls being hurt by each other and by Enju / Bara / Laplace trio.

I think that > something went wrong that wasn't planned for < Maybe it was Enju who wanted to play time in order to get Bara ready in order to show off. Maybe it was Shirosaki, who just wanted to play around with those foolish enough to step into his domain - the N-Fields, that is, if they are his to fool around with. Quite obviously, if Rozen was indeed such a bastard as some people make of him, he'd have just gone over the things the easy way and have the dolls beat each other up without a second thought to begin with a couple hundred years back, instead of ending up telling "there's another way"?! He's no sadist, or so it would seem... Maybe everything isn't quite that black and white...

"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
"I am glad of all details, whether they seem to you to be relevant or not"
"I play the game for the game's own sake"
Sherlock Holmes

[Asphyxiate]

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

Still, adding to Lost's statement, I'll maintain that there's a profound and well planned basis for the dolls' personalities and given traits in the way that their RMs are supposed to eventually become one, one way or another, to at least theoretically form Alice. No reason to believe or to assume that Rozen himself had planned everything from Gin x Shinku malice to Bara encounter. But it is safe to assume that he had indeed designed the dolls to have a certain "purpose" and their personality traits to fit it. Hence the outcome, though I still don't believe under these circumstances that he could have done anything to intervene with the dolls being hurt by each other and by Enju / Bara / Laplace trio.

I think that > something went wrong that wasn't planned for < Maybe it was Enju who wanted to play time in order to get Bara ready in order to show off. Maybe it was Shirosaki, who just wanted to play around with those foolish enough to step into his domain - the N-Fields, that is, if they are his to fool around with. Quite obviously, if Rozen was indeed such a bastard as some people make of him, he'd have just gone over the things the easy way and have the dolls beat each other up without a second thought to begin with a couple hundred years back, instead of ending up telling "there's another way"?! He's no sadist, or so it would seem... Maybe everything isn't quite that black and white...

This is probably straying off topic, however...

I don't know if it's just me, but I feel as though Enju was originally meant to be Rozen and he was indeed supposed to be a sadistic father...but that at the last moment the plot got changed. The last episode of Traumend was very jarring continuality wise. Honestly it left me going 'wtf just happened?' I was expecting some sort of giant epiphany and something along the lines of the scenes in the OP to happen. Of course that would have been an emotionally depressing conclusion, but the way that they suddenly revealed that Enju was not Rozen and ending the season without a question was just...ionno. Some major plot points bothered me.


Oh well...ShinkuxSuigintou ftw - I loved Overture so much. The OP, along with everything else, was amazingly beautiful. Needs moar third season.

My apologies if this has been brought up before...I only got into this series a few months back during a coincidental lapse in my interest in Type Moon, the series currently airing, and school work. I lack sensibility at times (along with the time to read everything in this section...though it's tempting).

[Kageitenshi]

Got to keep this short, since I'm near to being late, but from what I've read here, Enju doesn't even exist in the Manga storyline. I wouldn't think Peach-Pit would wish to deviate that much in the anime and have the roles swapped. As of sadism, at least in the drama CDs, Enju is the masochist type with bara playing the domina
Though, the way they've so far portrayed Rozen in the brief moments we've seen him handle the dolls, he'd have to be totally insane or have multiple personalities in order to be both - as gentle and loving as the dolls feel he is - and a sick bastard with only the outcome in mind. I believe Shinku who told us about what she had felt when near Rozen AND Enju who told us about what kind of feelings it takes to be a doll maker in general, let alone a maestro with the ability to make living dolls. "Without love you can't make dolls"

Ack! Gtg...

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

Got to keep this short, since I'm near to being late, but from what I've read here, Enju doesn't even exist in the Manga storyline. I wouldn't think Peach-Pit would wish to deviate that much in the anime and have the roles swapped. As of sadism, at least in the drama CDs, Enju is the masochist type with bara playing the domina

Hmm I believe it was BB's alter ego who is into the naughty stuff, Enju I recall wants the school girl wife

Note BB and our dolly samas'* favourite doggy detective are into animal loving from the CD

I think Enju is a vital part of the anime universe, I can't comment on the manga yet as I had to move during the order *sniffle*

* How to plural sama and have it belonging?

[Lost]

well that was shinku in the past...so she deserved some of the blame for having such a stuck up attitude towards being daddy's favorite ~ but she has redeemed herself for noticing the wrongs that she did so i am grateful for that ~ so in ouverture shinku is seen as the villain but times have changed since then so most of the blame is now shifted...to rozen ~ BURN!!

Funny; I do understand what DK's saying, and I'm glad he feels the way he feels about Shinku.

Maybe everything isn't quite that black and white...

Definitely not (As in, yes, nothing is black and white). Like Asphyxiate said, end of Traumend had seeming plot discontinuity; if we apply what we know about Rozen to that ending it would seem a total plot mistake. So I think it's likely that there is something we do not know. Hence, it's something to the effect of your favourite quote, Kage, "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"

[grey_moon]

Also another problem with trying to decipher Rozen's actions (or lack of) is that we are never given enough information to make a good call. Funny thing is normally I get frustrated by it, but with RM it's nicely balanced with tit bits (rumors) from the maidens (as I am never too sure if that is reality they are talking about, or just something they truly believe). My stance on Rozen is the same as Jun's...

[Lost]

^ You mean the one where he was yelling at Rozen?

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Lost

^ You mean the one where he was yelling at Rozen?

Hmm the yelling was a good point, but generally the whole stance, as Jun doesn't question their love for Rozen, just the whole Alice game concept and how its wrong. Personally I think Jun is amazed and confused by Rozen, as I'm I!

*Edit* Just watched that scene again and yup the shouting sums it all up nicely
*Edit again* I would like that to be changed to amazed by Rozen's work....

After watching the ending I've just had another what if! Its from the line where Shinku says that Rozen wants her to solve the problem (which I am guessing is referring to Hina (sniffle) and Sou not coming back to life)...

What if Rozen was betrayed by Enju and what Rozen wants is for someone who can carry on his work. In the old days artisans would only pass their secrets onto their children. ofc this does not fit into the description of Alice so its a pretty weak what if....

[Lost]

Alone, it's a valid line that can be considered for the plot, IMO. I do hope all those scenes in S1 about Jun being worthy of maestro-status wasn't for naught. But together with the Alice Game, it doesn't sound so reconcilable; like you pointed out, why have Alice then.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

Still totally and utterly fail to understand this statement...

basically to put it in a nutshell shinku's personality has changed from being stuck up to considerate after the time spent with jun...and seening that new side to her i am able to forgive her actions towards gina sama (ofc she apologized first cause it was her fault in the first place *no flaming me now T_T*) so in turn rozen is now the scape goat for being an idiot...hhe just hasnt shown any love towards the rozen maiden's if he truly wants them to kill each other inorder for him to gain alice...(truth is...he just wants a girlfriend )

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Also another problem with trying to decipher Rozen's actions (or lack of) is that we are never given enough information to make a good call. Funny thing is normally I get frustrated by it, but with RM it's nicely balanced with tit bits (rumors) from the maidens (as I am never too sure if that is reality they are talking about, or just something they truly believe). My stance on Rozen is the same as Jun's...

funny about those rumors...for those who have seen kyoshiro he reminds me of kazuya...

[Kageitenshi]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

basically to put it in a nutshell shinku's personality has changed from being stuck up to considerate after the time spent with jun...and seening that new side to her i am able to forgive her actions towards gina sama (ofc she apologized first cause it was her fault in the first place *no flaming me now T_T*) so in turn rozen is now the scape goat for being an idiot...hhe just hasnt shown any love towards the rozen maiden's if he truly wants them to kill each other inorder for him to gain alice...(truth is...he just wants a girlfriend )

So, basically you yourself use the term "scape goat" while all the same directly blame him
How does one "show" love anyhow? It's a feeling... he made the dolls, he gave them life and apparently has given not only Gin-sama new life twice, but the other dolls as well. Save for Hina and Sou, whose RMs were quite obviously taken by Laplace and couldn't therefore have been "fixed" by Rozen after the events of Träumend, even if he had wanted to. Something we just can't know and can't ask either.

Besides, that girlfriend idea of yours, was it a joke or do you really think so? I mean, it's possible, but considering the fact of fiction, we're dealing with here, Alice might just as well be some equivalent of the Philosopher's Stone, a goddess to bring a new era of happiness, or impossible to create altogether. Or the dolls decide it's better to remain as is and at the end of third season we'd have a last episode with Jun being hit by Suiseiseki's briefcase when she crashes through his bedroom window once again.

Why do people get stuck staring at some little (often imaginary) details when there's a whole lot of pieces missing from the whole puzzle? Why do they judge by the unfortunate chain of events instead of a relatively happy outcome? Why do I have to always start writing before I have to get to work...

[Deathkillz]

^ scape goat as he still hasnt shown real evidence of how he is really like ~ fine we are give thoughts from all the RM dolls that rozen is like some god in heaven...but has anyone actually thought that this can be quite the opposite? from what i can tell (which isnt a lot) rozen only wants a perfect being which is alice ~ in order to obtain this he wants his dolls to kill each other in order to obtain each others roza mysticals...but is this the only way? since he was the one who gave out the roza mysticals why didnt he just save himself the trouble and merge them together himself? does he take pleasure to see his dolls kill each other? we have no way to tell what rozen's true objectives are...he could might as well be satan playing with emotion and feelings...(yet again i say that he could be like kazuya from kyoshiro to towa no sora ~ someone who is totally misunderstood)

and that girlfriend crack...its a joke but at times it seems so real...rozen is a pervert!!!

[grey_moon]

I've always found the whole Philosopher's Stone theory interesting, but then i've dismissed it....

Why?

Well to me Rozen and even Enju has surpassed what that Stone is meant to be able to grant (well if we keep it in the realms of not FMA). Generally it's associated with turning lead into gold, and staying young... Well I think that since Rozen and Enju are looking pretty young and they most defiently are beyond the years of a normal human. Transmutation... Changing lead into gold... Hell they can beat that, they can change lumps of clay into beautiful living, eating beings(not going to guess if they can breath or poo )

Unless ppl mean Philosopher's Stone, in a more philosophical sense ie an item overcome some limitation, then I personally think the whole PS theory is rather moot in the RM universe.

[Kageitenshi]

Yes well, I used the "something of an equivalent of a Philosopher's Stone" thinking FMA and all that kind of stuff, so it wasn't even supposed to be a direct and literal comparison. But surely, if it were so that Rozen wants Alice for his own personal agenda, whether that be pleasure or what not, then does that reflect people's own way of thinking? I've come to think of Rozen as someone who does things just to see if he can, more of the scientist type, than someone whose ideals and hopes revolve only around his own histrionic self. One thing is for sure, he can and does love, if that truly is the power that keeps the dolls "alive". Being interested in psychology and having taken profiling as a sort of a hobby, I still maintain my point in that if Rozen was indeed a real human being, he'd have to have more than one personality disorder in order to be as profoundly contradicting as to wish for his own "children" he obviously loves very much to just blindly beat each other up. I really refuse to believe that it was him, who told the dolls to actually take the Alice Game seriously or if he was even the one to start the game to begin with. I still take this all as fiction, the way it should be taken as, and believe that it's totally up to whoever is writing the story. For all the possibilites available, he could just forget the viewers altogether and turn the whole 3rd season into a friggin parody, but that'd cause quite an uproar
Under that light, maybe the writer actually aimed at sparking all these emotions in people with not showing it all, just to have a stunning plot twist saved for last? This is what I'd do if I were to write a story - wrap the viewers around my finger by leading them around with bread crumbs only to take them to the edge, all hungry for more and give them a shock at the end. Then again, I suck at that kind of stuff, hence watching what others do.