(L+CR) Charlotte

[Wandering Soul]

I don't even understand his logic that if Nao wasn't constantly being beaten into a pulp then she's a Mary Sue.

[Archon_Wing]

Well, Mary Sue/Gary Stu has always been a crappy argument because that term was originated with fan fiction. An actual series can never actaully have one and usage of it is ironically, intellectual laziness , on the part of the critics as much as it is on the author-- it's ultimately just an excuse for character hating. You can't just use a single term for criticism and even if you could, it's more of a symptom of the whole show being completely unable to present conflict in a legitimate fashion rather than to pin it on certain characters. Nerfing Kira/Kirito isn't going to make those shows any better, lol. Is it going to make Soichiro Hoshi be actually able to act? Is it going to add more nuance to the conflicts? Expecting the likes of Kawahara or Maeda to accurately describe grey? lol. Nope. Kirito's not even a bad character in the grand scheme of things. :S

Anyone who disagrees, you can always provide a link to a well-written definition of Mary Sue that isn't overloaded with bias. I am skeptical.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Well, Mary Sue/Gary Stu has always been a crappy argument because that term was originated with fan fiction.

It's true that the term originated with fan fiction, but I nonetheless disagree with the overall gist of your argument.

There are characters that are extremely overpowered and/or made excessively perfect. Such characters can have a variety of negative effects on a work of fiction. One is making conflicts involving the MS/GS far less interesting or suspenseful because the moral dimension of the conflict, as well as the conflict's outcome, is consistently one-sided and/or predictable. Another negative effect is that the MS/GS can make other protagonists seem utterly redundant and/or useless because the MS/GS can often legitimately say "Whatever you can do, I can do better; I can do anything better than you!"

"Gary Stu/Mary Sue" is a good short-hand criticism for such characters, as it more or less conveys what I wrote above without having to actually write it all out like that. "Gary Stu/Mary Sue" is wrongly used sometimes, but that doesn't mean GS/MS is always an invalid criticism. There are fictional characters that really do present the problems I mentioned above. I'd definitely apply the Gary Stu criticism to Mahouka's Tatsuya - He is richly deserving of it, in my view.

The problem is not the GS/MS term itself, its applying it to characters that don't really run afoul of the issues I delved into above. Nao does not in any way, shape, or form have the issues I raised above. SAO Season 1 Kirito did in fact come across to me as overly Gary Stu-esque at times, but thankfully SAO Season 2 Kirito shifted away from that and became a better character because of it.

Finally, the GS/MS has simply evolved from its original fanfic-limited meaning to something much more useful with broader application. That's a positive word evolution, in my view, not something to criticize.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's true that the term originated with fan fiction, but I nonetheless disagree with the overall gist of your argument.

There are characters that are extremely overpowered and/or made excessively perfect. Such characters can have a variety of negative effects on a work of fiction. One is making conflicts involving the MS/GS far less interesting or suspenseful because the moral dimension of the conflict, as well as the conflict's outcome, is consistently one-sided and/or predictable. Another negative effect is that the MS/GS can make other protagonists seem utterly redundant and/or useless because the MS/GS can often legitimately say "Whatever you can do, I can do better; I can do anything better than you!"

"Gary Stu/Mary Sue" is a good short-hand criticism for such characters, as it more or less conveys what I wrote above without having to actually write it all out like that. "Gary Stu/Mary Sue" is wrongly used sometimes, but that doesn't mean GS/MS is always an invalid criticisms. There are fictional characters that really do present the problems I mentioned above. I'd definitely apply the Gary Stu criticism to Mahouka's Tatsuya - He is richly deserving of it, in my view.

The problem is not the GS/MS term itself, its applying it to characters that don't really run afoul of the issues I delved into above. Nao does not in any way, shape, or form have the issues I raised above. SAO Season 1 Kirito did in fact come across to me as overly Gary Stu-esque at times, but thankfully SAO Season 2 Kirito shifted away from that and became a better character because of it.

Finally, the GS/MS has simply evolved from its original fanfic-limited meaning to something much more useful with broader application. That's a positive word evolution, in my view, not something to criticize.

Well, that's where I find it to be a bit subjective.

First off, if we restrict this connotation to be someone to be simply so overpowered that he/she makes the conflict irrelevant, then it appears to me that it would be restricted to fighting anime or anime that requires violent conflict, even if it's not the center of the story!

Second, it's very much the fault of the story to come up with an inadequate villain to match the hero, I would think. I mean, is Superman never worth watching, unless he's against his own peers or against Darkseid? Sometimes it's refreshing to see chaos happening and to have the hero just come in and literally shit on the villains. Frankly, it's a lost art and appreciation for that kind of stuff is sort of lost but I think a lot of us can remember a lot of those 90s cartoons where the hero would come to save the day in the very end and everything would be alright. Now, if you argue that it's those moments of actual threat that makes people wake up, I won't deny you that, but that goes against the storytelling rather than the character being a dead end. Again, a symptom.

Third, "perfect" is too absolutist of a term, and thus different people draw different lines everywhere. I could argue that Kirito isn't perfect because he has failed, and while you could argue it doesn't help the drama, I think it still takes a more nuanced argument. I have no idea, it's just nothing to really do with why I don't like SAO so i guess I don't really see it.

Finally, your actual argument is more nuanced than just using a term but in these cases I'm still looking at why you draw all these things as a vehicle of criticism. What I don't like is people using their Mary Sue parser as if were an actual argument. What should I say to save myself? It's more of a conclusion than an argument because often times I still go "So what?"

[eiyuuou]

People these days want to see a tragedy befall upon the hero.
Maybe it is the Age of the underdog heroes.

[ginger02]

That was one rushed ending.

[Marcus H.]

Maybe it is the Age of the underdog heroes.

Tatsuya Shiba and Ainz Ooal Gown beg to disagree.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Tatsuya Shiba and Ainz Ooal Gown beg to disagree.

Nah, it's the age of suffering (and idols).
Just look at how popular Madoka, Monogatari, and Love Live are.

[XFire]

Damn. I had my doubts about this show at first (dear lord, so many doubts) but the last episode clinched it for me. Definitely worth the wait.

Also, Key anime ended with the main couple happy and together. Is that allowed?

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by XFire

Damn. I had my doubts about this show at first (dear lord, so many doubts) but the last episode clinched it for me. Definitely worth the wait.

Also, Key anime ended with the main couple happy and together. Is that allowed?

Why do people act as if this is such an unusual thing? Kanon had a happy ending. Clannad had a happy ending. Little Busters had a happy ending. That's literally half of the Key anime out there ending on a perfectly happy note for our heroes. If anything, Charlotte has one of the more depressing endings, what with Yuu ending up an amnesiac and all.

[EroKing]

[larethian]

^ which mag is this from? I buy some mags ocassionally but i don't remember seeing this spread in any recent ones i bought.

EDIT:
Nvm, I wasn't able to enlarge it from my mobile earlier somehow. Now that I'm home I can see it's a Newtype scan from my desktop.

[Diluc]

Originally Posted by TheEroKing

can someoen translate what its mean?

[EroKing]

[Shinji103]

Our first bit of real fanservice in this series. (or as close as we'll get, anyway) Misa's a lot more stacked than I expected.....

[Kanon]

I just realized they didn't have a swimsuit episode. Are they going to fix this with the OVA?

[Wandering Soul]

Didn't expect Misa to be so stacked.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vegard Aune

Why do people act as if this is such an unusual thing? Kanon had a happy ending. Clannad had a happy ending. Little Busters had a happy ending. That's literally half of the Key anime out there ending on a perfectly happy note for our heroes. If anything, Charlotte has one of the more depressing endings, what with Yuu ending up an amnesiac and all.

Good points.

I blame this skewed perception on how "Key = Sad Girl in the Snow" and "Key = Crying Games" has become very popularized in the wider anime fandom. Key anime does tend to be very emotional with some definite sadness in them, but they're honestly more likely to end on a (mostly) happy note than on a (mostly) sad note.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I just realized they didn't have a swimsuit episode. Are they going to fix this with the OVA?

Potentially, though I think there have certainly been instances where there's been scans featuring the cast of a series in swimsuits even if they never actually wear them in the show proper .

[EroKing]

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