[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[Judoh]

Spoiler for the truth:

Eva: "Hey Okonogi. Go and shred this for me would you?"

Okonogi: "Yeah, you got it, Boss".

*looks through pages*

Okonogi: "Pffahahaha! This is RICH!"

"Hey Hachijou, you want to buy this diary off of me?"

Hachijou: "KAAAAY~"

But seriously just about everyone in Umineko has some sort of obsession with writing in diaries. Kyrie is mentioned as having one in episode 6. IRL if a dead rich family wrote this much historians would have a field day. Since it's rarely ever really built upon, I think it's just something convenient to the plot, so that Witch hunters have something to speculate about. I don't really see any cause for it to have a deep reason or anything.

[immblueversion]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Alright, I can buy that.

So then why the hell would she leave it around for any jackass to just bust open and read? Lots of people who write sensitive information down for catharsis burn it afterwards or something.

Well, she did have a mean ICD...

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Alright, I can buy that.

So then why the hell would she leave it around for any jackass to just bust open and read? Lots of people who write sensitive information down for catharsis burn it afterwards or something.

I thought she was doing it as one big "screw you!" to Ange.... 8)

[AuraTwilight]

....but....burning it after writing it would be a bigger screw you.

Unless the inside of the journal isn't the One Truth, but "nyaha it's just a fanfiction. Eat my ass."

Either way, this concept makes no sense.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

....but....burning it after writing it would be a bigger screw you.

Unless the inside of the journal isn't the One Truth, but "nyaha it's just a fanfiction. Eat my ass."

Either way, this concept makes no sense.

Which is why I thought it was a fake by either Eva, Ange or Hachijou.

You know, a plausible scenario if the diary was opened was that there would be a group of people who wouldn't believe anyways. And we'd probably be not really sure whether they were right or not with our limited info.

I'm thinking of something like Moon Landing Deniers or the Kennedy Assassination.

[immblueversion]

Spoiler for EP8:

You know, when I said "ICD," I meant "Incurable Cough of Death." And when I say that, I mean she's dead. She couldn't just ask anyone else to destroy it then. But if she could have, why would she? Diaries are supposed to be private. If she was keeping it a secret even when she was on her deathbed; no, especially on her death bed, making her incapable of destroying it, she couldn't very well tell some one else to do it for her, because they'd probably be all like "screw you" and take it for themselves as soon as she dies. So she kept it as secret as she could while trying to express her thoughts the only way she could.

I'm positive I just contradicted myself in there and made a bunch of holes. But hell, I just want to write something...

[AuraTwilight]

How long does it take to write and destroy something. Write something, then not even two minutes later, destroy it. Christ, if it was for personal venting and had no intentions to share it, why did she dick around and die before destroying it?

[Used Can]

Probably she forgot, or she had it hidden somewhere and she didn't expect anyone to find it, or she made a bet and if Ange found it, she'd be entitled to the truth, if she didn't well, then that's it. Either way, I don't think there'll be an answer for that.

[AuraTwilight]

I'll just say it's all fantasy since Hachijou used the red in 1998.

Fuckin' Meta-timelines.

[ClannadDango]

I will go with she wrote it all in her dreams!

[MeoTwister5]

So I've reached my point of mental burnout after continuous work for almost 2 weeks. Taking a break from summaries for a few days. Should be back to work by Saturday.

[ClannadDango]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

So I've reached my point of mental burnout after continuous work for almost 2 weeks. Taking a break from summaries for a few days. Should be back to work by Saturday.

Well thanks a lot for the summaries you have posted so far, that's a lot of work (also concidering you're a med student). You deserve time to relax.

[goldenlove27]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

So I've reached my point of mental burnout after continuous work for almost 2 weeks. Taking a break from summaries for a few days. Should be back to work by Saturday.

I've lost connection for about a week 1/2 after the game came out so I haven't been able to thank you for your summaries thus far. Thank you again for helping those who can't read (or have) the game.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Probably she forgot, or she had it hidden somewhere and she didn't expect anyone to find it, or she made a bet and if Ange found it, she'd be entitled to the truth, if she didn't well, then that's it. Either way, I don't think there'll be an answer for that.

It was said in EP8 that:

Spoiler for EP8:

It was found by an employee of the hospital, stuck between the wall and her bed some time after Eva died and they cleaned out her room. He knew that Hachijô was the one who would probably pay the highest price, considering her work was based on it, so he (or she) sold it to Ikuko.

I think Ikuko even mentioned, that she had some kind of relation to that employee to get information on Eva while she was in the hospital...

so why is it so hard to believe that Ikuko got her hands on the diary?!

And why should the red truth be a lie this time around? Why shouldn't Eva's diary contain the one truth?
During the scenes with Ange in the additional Tips she appeared quite sane, considering the tragedy she had lived through. What probably made her crack was the fact that everybody made her the murderer and she didn't even gain Ange's love...she lost everything.

And why shouldn't someone write a diary instead of a will? In a way it's the only thing of worth that Eva can leave behind and considering everybody hates her, she feels no obligation to give it to someone specific...

[Renall]

Well, for one thing, Eva cannot possibly know the One Truth(tm), even if she was there. I'm sure somebody was killed outside her sight, so as to what happened to them she'd only be able to guess. Even if the diary is a plain factual-only account of exactly what Eva saw and did, it's probably incomplete, or at least misleading, even if it's true.

But again, I'm always suspect about the provenance of things people just happen to "find" in 1998. If Eva physically hands the diary to Ikuko or Tohya or Ange, then we've got something. Otherwise, there's always gonna be doubt.

[AuraTwilight]

so why is it so hard to believe that Ikuko got her hands on the diary?!

Because Eva has NO REASON TO WRITE THE DAMN THING. It's like spending your whole life protecting the secret of what happened in Roswell, then bumbling it up at the end and leaving a jar of alien DNA under your pillow.

And why should the red truth be a lie this time around? Why shouldn't Eva's diary contain the one truth?

Because the Red Truth has been abused as fuck all for the past three or four episodes? Because Hachijou used it in a setting where it shouldn't and thus implying some trippy Gameboard trap that might invalidate her Red as being only applicable to a fictional 1998? Really, take your pick.

And why shouldn't someone write a diary instead of a will? In a way it's the only thing of worth that Eva can leave behind and considering everybody hates her, she feels no obligation to give it to someone specific...

It is implied that Eva kept her mouth shut all this time in order to protect Ange; that the truth was too painful for her to recount. Why, then, would she conveniently write a diary and just leave it somewhere where it can be abused, tampered with, manipulated, taken out of context...

If she was gonna do all that shit, she should've told Ange straight up.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Because Eva has NO REASON TO WRITE THE DAMN THING. It's like spending your whole life protecting the secret of what happened in Roswell, then bumbling it up at the end and leaving a jar of alien DNA under your pillow.

You are making a wrong assumption: the fact she wrote a Diary at some point doesn't mean she couldn't change her mind later on. Also assuming she didn't dispose the diary after all, it either means that she went basically broken or intended to reveal it later.

We have no idea when she wrote that diary, nor when exactly she started to take everything on herself.

Because the Red Truth has been abused as fuck all for the past three or four episodes? Because Hachijou used it in a setting where it shouldn't and thus implying some trippy Gameboard trap that might invalidate her Red as being only applicable to a fictional 1998? Really, take your pick.

That's a nonsensical argument. The fact it has been abused doesn't mean its meaning and effect are nullified, especially it remained consistent for its usual context. When featherine declared that red truth, there was definitely nothing that could leave a playword.

It is implied that Eva kept her mouth shut all this time in order to protect Ange; that the truth was too painful for her to recount. Why, then, would she conveniently write a diary and just leave it somewhere where it can be abused, tampered with, manipulated, taken out of context...

If she was gonna do all that shit, she should've told Ange straight up.

That wouldn't work if Eva had the same idea than Battler: that she didn't believe Ange to accept that truth like that. Also, we don't know if Eva herself thought it to be the truth. Whereas Featherine could declare it so (meaning the settings of the board elevated her declaration as absolute truth), it doesn't mean Eva herself thought to be accurate considering she definitely had blind splot. That is to say, it has to be a good chunk of truth regardless.

That is to say, considering how Eva went nuts as she was basically alones for 12 years, it isn't surprising she got stuck into that predicament.
Also, I can understand that kind of character that would want to protect what they tried to hide, but they definitely couldn't dispose of it. Especially if that diary does contain other things, such like what she thought of things before that incident, like George recent exploits in his studies and whatnot.


Also, it isn't the first time I'm asking that but: please refrain going personal over a simple argument. It isn't like using a colorful language makes your points any more relevant.

[AuraTwilight]

You are making a wrong assumption: the fact she wrote a Diary at some point doesn't mean she couldn't change her mind later on. Also assuming she didn't dispose the diary after all, it either means that she went basically broken or intended to reveal it later.

We have no idea when she wrote that diary, nor when exactly she started to take everything on herself.

If she wrote it years before before she decided to take everything on herself, why was it allegedly found behind her hospital bed? Things still don't addup.

That's a nonsensical argument. The fact it has been abused doesn't mean its meaning and effect are nullified, especially it remained consistent for its usual context. When featherine declared that red truth, there was definitely nothing that could leave a playword.

Oh there's plenty of room to play with there. This diary of Eva's has the One Truth in it, ...that I have personally reached from the seven games and edited into Eva's diary to gain credibility.

That wouldn't work if Eva had the same idea than Battler: that she didn't believe Ange to accept that truth like that. Also, we don't know if Eva herself thought it to be the truth. Whereas Featherine could declare it so (meaning the settings of the board elevated her declaration as absolute truth), it doesn't mean Eva herself thought to be accurate considering she definitely had blind splot. That is to say, it has to be a good chunk of truth regardless.

If it has blind spots, how is it the One Truth?

That is to say, considering how Eva went nuts as she was basically alones for 12 years, it isn't surprising she got stuck into that predicament.
Also, I can understand that kind of character that would want to protect what they tried to hide, but they definitely couldn't dispose of it. Especially if that diary does contain other things, such like what she thought of things before that incident, like George recent exploits in his studies and whatnot.

Tear the pages out and burn them. Or write it on scrap paper instead of a diary in the first place.

Also, it isn't the first time I'm asking that but: please refrain going personal over a simple argument. It isn't like using a colorful language makes your points any more relevant.

I'm not getting personal, I just like to swear. Especially to emphasize that this plot point makes no sense. I don't even know how you're getting personal investment out of it since none of my coarser language was aimed at anyone on this board.

I will totally hold Ryukishi up with a knife though.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

If she wrote it years before before she decided to take everything on herself, why was it allegedly found behind her hospital bed? Things still don't addup.

As I said, I can't exactly consider Eva sane any more considering what happened to her over the time.
Even though she didn't expose the truth, that doesn't mean she has forsaken it (as if she could anyway, since she knew what happened, so it is unlikely for her to deny that, unlike what Ange did).

To my understanding, I wouldn't be surprised that she kept the diary as she considered it to be the safest place: why would someone hide it somewhere, if they can simply keep watch on it?
Also, it isn't like Eva knew when she dies, so the fact it was found in her hospital room is fine.

Oh there's plenty of room to play with there. This diary of Eva's has the One Truth in it, ...that I have personally reached from the seven games and edited into Eva's diary to gain credibility.

Except that this red line has a dot. Unlike Bern's red, this one cannot add any "contextual" divergeance.

If it has blind spots, how is it the One Truth?

Because Eva herself isn't omniscient. For instance, if you consider a witness in a murder case: they might have seen a glimpse of the culprit, yet they perhaps aren't sure of them and keep declaring "the culprit looks like Mr X, but I'm not sure of that".
They know the truth, yet they aren't sure by themselfves.

But in the case of Eva, it is very likely that she had to guess a few things, but considering what Featherine declared, they are correct.

Tear the pages out and burn them. Or write it on scrap paper instead of a diary in the first place.

You are ignoring her state of mind. Regardless how meaningless it sounds to you, I'm not really surprised for Eva not to forsake it. Even if she knows already, it is actually a proof the "truth exist" even though she is adamant enough not to show it.
And everyone isn't oblidged to act with logic.

If you assume that the diary was the only way for her to live on, well you can't blame her, can you?
As I imagine Eva's state of mind, I wouldn't be surprised if she almost thought herself to be the culprit after being labeled as such for years. Yet, that diary represents the truth that no one can tamper as long as she is alive. Therefore, that could potentially keep some sanity in check in her.

That's a lot of conjuncture of my part, but I really can't see the plot hole considering how Eva was portrayed.

I'm not getting personal, I just like to swear. Especially to emphasize that this plot point makes no sense. I don't even know how you're getting personal investment out of it since none of my coarser language was aimed at anyone on this board.

Fine by me if you aren't going personal. But I'm asking you to make some efforts here. There are other way to put emphasis (Oh and please, do not advocate the "lack of rules against that", it is purely etiquette, that's it).

[AuraTwilight]

As I said, I can't exactly consider Eva sane any more considering what happened to her over the time.
Even though she didn't expose the truth, that doesn't mean she has forsaken it (as if she could anyway, since she knew what happened, so it is unlikely for her to deny that, unlike what Ange did).

To my understanding, I wouldn't be surprised that she kept the diary as she considered it to be the safest place: why would someone hide it somewhere, if they can simply keep watch on it?
Also, it isn't like Eva knew when she dies, so the fact it was found in her hospital room is fine.

She was surely aware that she WAS dying eventually.

And papers with the truth written on it don't need to exist for her to not forsake the truth. She's not planning to tell anyone apparently; why does it need to be written and then gone unread?

This just doesn't make sense, sorry.

Except that this red line has a dot. Unlike Bern's red, this one cannot add any "contextual" divergeance.

I'm aware, I'm just giving a hypothetical example. Hachijou, like Beatrice has done, can be mentally amending the definition of words.

Because Eva herself isn't omniscient. For instance, if you consider a witness in a murder case: they might have seen a glimpse of the culprit, yet they perhaps aren't sure of them and keep declaring "the culprit looks like Mr X, but I'm not sure of that".
They know the truth, yet they aren't sure by themselfves.

But in the case of Eva, it is very likely that she had to guess a few things, but considering what Featherine declared, they are correct.

Hoo boy, hope Eva didn't assume anything incorrectly whatsoever, then.

You are ignoring her state of mind. Regardless how meaningless it sounds to you, I'm not really surprised for Eva not to forsake it. Even if she knows already, it is actually a proof the "truth exist" even though she is adamant enough not to show it.
And everyone isn't oblidged to act with logic.

It just strikes me as unbearably silly. Maybe if this diary didn't serve as a meta-world plot device and Hachijou wasn't dropping magic I'd be able to buy for a split second that it actually exists.

If you assume that the diary was the only way for her to live on, well you can't blame her, can you?
As I imagine Eva's state of mind, I wouldn't be surprised if she almost thought herself to be the culprit after being labeled as such for years. Yet, that diary represents the truth that no one can tamper as long as she is alive. Therefore, that could potentially keep some sanity in check in her.

I'm not entirely sure I can buy Eva losing her mind so much she loses her ability to properly recall the night she lost George.