[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Asuka0NK]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

If you want to play save you'll better wait for the manga version of Ep 7 to come out. If it were to offer a portrait of Yasu who's different from Lion people might take it as canon and complain.

So far though this is the best Yasu portray the manga offered... -_-

... which honestly looked more like Shannon than Lion...

I've decided to combine the three into one. Beatrice's body with a flat chest, Shannon's head (May add longer hair), and Kanon's hat.

[Wanderer]

Sounds like a monstrosity.

[Asuka0NK]

Well now I have several ideas. I am thinking of Lion in the dress with the hair down. Or the above one. Then the basic Lion in a maid outfit. Kanon in the dress with slightly longer hair and blonde hair or as I call it HikusaYasu. So many ideas. I don't know does anyone else have any ideas?

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Asuka0NK

Well now I have several ideas. I am thinking of Lion in the dress with the hair down. Or the above one. Then the basic Lion in a maid outfit. Kanon in the dress with slightly longer hair and blonde hair or as I call it HikusaYasu. So many ideas. I don't know does anyone else have any ideas?

I think it really depends on the context you'll be using Yasu in in your fan game, and on what you've decided the details of the world are. Will there actually be a point in the game where Yasu-as-Yasu appears rather than Yasu dressed as Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice?

[GuestSpeaker]

So I've asked this before, but how do you guys think Kinzo was recognised game 4 in the dining room?

Also, Game 3 is messed up. Yasu killed herself super early, and the red "all 5 had wounds resembling gunshots which became fatal" sure is messed up when you consider Shanon had to have one that "became fatal". Either she was bleeding very slowly, or this is a bit of a sus red.

[Kealym]

Always read it as "They recognized that Kinzo was dead." Or to use the wording of that particular red, "they recognized that he no longer existed" or "they recognized his existence as one of dead-ness" or what have you. "recognized the existence of" was a ridulously suspect way to phrase that, though I guess it's the best she could do.

Um, someone had a decent explanation of how that sentence about the wounds was structured in Japanese, and how the translation of it wasn't, perhaps, the best. Well, in English, the line seems to have some pretty notable syntactic ambiguity. That is, you could just as easily read it as either:
a. ) Those people had wounds that RESEMBLED "fatal gunshot wounds", or
b. ) Those people had fatal wounds that RESEMBLED "gunshot wounds"

...the first of which leaves some wiggle room for "wounded, but not actually dead." The more pressing problem is that all 6 people are declared dead at that point in the story, suicides are out, traps are out, no one is hiding, and all deaths were instant (specifically defined as "as soon as a person was attacked, they were incapable of taking further actions of their own will"). But the narrative definitely seems to imply that Shkanon wasn't, um, as dead as everybody else. I'd say it's the one point, more than any other, that pretty much delves into overt cheating.

Of course, EP3 is pretty wonky on the whole.
"Hey yo George. Why don't you jump out this second story window so you can have a look at your dead girlfriend? Don't worry I'll lie my ass off about it."
"Gee willikers thanks Dr. Nanjo!"

"Hey honey, I know I said we don't need food, and we totally don't. But we should go get some anyway."
"Um why."
"I CAN'T TELL YOU. Also bring the guns. And Hideyoshi."

"Oh wassup Nanjo, I see you're still alive, and stuff. And ... well, we can't have that."
"Really, though?"
"Yup. BECAUSE."

[Drifloon]

So I've asked this before, but how do you guys think Kinzo was recognised game 4 in the dining room?

I always assumed it meant that everyone agreed to acknowledge Kinzo's existence, seeing as how EP4 basically revolves around everyone lying to Battler.

Also, Game 3 is messed up. Yasu killed herself super early

Isn't it generally accepted that she survived to the end in EP3? I mean, there's no other satisfying explanation for who kills Nanjo.

[Jan-Poo]

I think that's what Drifloon said.

The word used in that red truth is "mitomeru" 認める and I think it has more the meaning of "admitting" something with words rather than recognizing evident facts.

Incidentally, "mitomeru" is the same word everyone used in the chapel scene of EP2 where you see everyone "recognizing" that Beatrice was a witch.

I always thought the two scenes are connected. They both happen during the family conference after dinner, supposedly after Yasu shows up. The only difference is what they are asked to "recognize".

It would also make sense as a question from Beatrice, because solving that riddle correctly would mean understanding a most important part of Beatrice's games.

[GuestSpeaker]

Oh, how did I miss the ambiguity of the wound red, silly me.

As for Nanjo, I think he had to be killed by someone already wounded for real, so not Yasu, and probably Kyrie.

[Asuka0NK]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

I think it really depends on the context you'll be using Yasu in in your fan game, and on what you've decided the details of the world are. Will there actually be a point in the game where Yasu-as-Yasu appears rather than Yasu dressed as Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice?

Well I want Yasu as Yasu to appear at the very end and she is Battler's final opponent to finally put an end to the games.

[Drifloon]

As for Nanjo, I think he had to be killed by someone already wounded for real, so not Yasu, and probably Kyrie.

I highly doubt that. For one thing, that was Battler's theory in the EP4 tea party, and pretty much everything he said there other than Kinzo being dead was wrong, so it would be strange for that to be right. For another, Will said there were no falsehoods in Rudolf, Kyrie and Hideyoshi's final moments as told.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

I highly doubt that. For one thing, that was Battler's theory in the EP4 tea party, and pretty much everything he said there other than Kinzo being dead was wrong, so it would be strange for that to be right. For another, Will said there were no falsehoods in Rudolf, Kyrie and Hideyoshi's final moments as told.

I always wonder about that quote of Will's. Obviously they weren't all killed by Eva-Beatrice and the Siestas, but that was "their final moments as told". Maybe that could just generally mean they were killed by Eva, but it also seems unlikely that Eva could have killed Hideyoshi.

[Asuka0NK]

With my theory Eva did kill Hideyoshi but it was a complete accident. After Eva killed Rudolf and Kyrie, Hideyoshi came in and did what he did to Evatrice and during this Eva accidentally pulled the trigger and killed him.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I always wonder about that quote of Will's. Obviously they weren't all killed by Eva-Beatrice and the Siestas, but that was "their final moments as told". Maybe that could just generally mean they were killed by Eva, but it also seems unlikely that Eva could have killed Hideyoshi.

Actually Hideyoshi was killed by a gun who 'magically' floated and shoot him while he was reproaching Eva Beatrice.

As tears dripped down his face, Hideyoshi kept hitting the witch's head.
He wasn't even pointing the gun at her anymore.
Therefore.
That sound of gunfire couldn't have come from the gun Hideyoshi was holding.
......The gun, which had fallen in the corner near Rudolf's corpse, floated into the air, ...and smoke lingered near the barrel.
And the bullet?
.........A red stain was slowly spreading across the chest of Hideyoshi's vest.
Even though his back was facing the barrel of the gun, ...the bullet had been driven into Hideyoshi's chest.
".........E, ...va........................uu..."
"...Like I said, I'm not Eva. What a stupid, annoying man. ......You're a pain, so I'll switch the sacrifice of the sixth twilight to you. ...And if you had just hidden under a bed shaking or something, I had planned to let you go. ......You went to all the trouble of coming back. You really are a stupid man."
*thunk*... There was a dull sound as Hideyoshi fell to the floor.

In the novel it's the gun near Rudolf in the manga it's Kyrie's.
The anime is a lot more vague as the gun is rather far from Rudolf and Kyrie's corpses actually it's on the opposite side of the room.

So my guess is that one of the two (Kyrie if the manga is supposed to give us more hints than the novel), who was about to die, shoot, either to hit him or to hit 'Eva-Beatrice' (be Eva-Beatrice Yasu or Eva) and Hideyoshi ended up being in the fire line.

Also the scene depicts Hideyoshi's death as 'not planned' by Eva-Beatrice who'll even say:

"...Like I said, I'm not Eva. What a stupid, annoying man. ......You're a pain, so I'll switch the sacrifice of the sixth twilight to you. ...And if you had just hidden under a bed shaking or something, I had planned to let you go. ......You went to all the trouble of coming back. You really are a stupid man."

... so if the scene contained no falsehood (apart from the obvious magical killing) maybe it's also supposed to mean that Hideyoshi wasn't a planned victim... which might be a hint toward the fact that things didn't went as planned.

There's also something interesting I discovered re-reading Ep 3. It was Rudolf who discovered the death of Rosa and Maria. He's also the one that

"In the center of the rose garden, Rudolf confirmed the corpses of Rosa and Maria. After that, he returned to the guesthouse, called for help, and carried both of them into the guesthouse.

If we can trust Nanjo's autopsy, the cause of Rosa's death was a stab to the medulla oblongata with the pointed gate of the fence. It is thought that Maria's death was due to strangling with bare hands. However, due to the 'Devil's Proof', we cannot discount a misdiagnosis."

"Rosa-san was also holding a gun, but she was attacked. ...Isn't it dangerous?"
"...When I went out to check on Rosa and Maria-chan, I was the only one holding a gun. But I wasn't attacked. ......Maybe they'll be cautious if their opponent is a man."

He's also the one that goes asking Eva and Hideyoshi if Rosa's with them, raising the issue of her disappearance.

Of course this can mean nothing, yet it was interesting how the text pointed to him.
In some mysteries the murderer (or the murderer's accomplice) does this sort of things (to be the first to get on the murder scene or to have the body being discovered when he's comfortable).
Of course it can be all a misleading but when Maria was killed Beato also said something that seemed to imply things didn't go according to her plan due to someone solving the epitaph... so maybe in EP 3 really happened 'unplanned things', which might also be a hint to how in Prime things didn't went according to the program...

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by Asuka0NK

All the humans have real hair colors the only people that don't are the witches who have ridiculous hair colors to stand out more I guess or just because it fits.

Oh, well, possible hair colors, yeah, but not the hair they actually have. Which is almost certainly just black.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I always wonder about that quote of Will's. Obviously they weren't all killed by Eva-Beatrice and the Siestas, but that was "their final moments as told". Maybe that could just generally mean they were killed by Eva, but it also seems unlikely that Eva could have killed Hideyoshi.

I've been thinking so, lately.
It's not strictly necessary for Eva to go to the guesthouse ... but it's certainly possible. It explains the magical scene much more clearly ... Eva was worried about her husband (she knows Kyrie is crafty, after all) and secretly follows them through her window. Then there's a confrontation, accusations, a gunfight or self defense or whatevs. Hideyoshi is all "Eva what the hell man" and she misfires when he's smacking on her head or whatever, her luck when holding guns is only about 50/50 anyways. It's sort of a lot to have happen in just 30 minutes, but...

Notably, unlike Rosa's gun which was left by her corpse, Kyrolf's two guns had been taken away by the time they were discovered. What's always confused me moreso are the stakes. Like, Yasu is alive, wandering around ... encounters 3 corpses in the Hall, says to herself "Eh, why not. gouge gouge gouge."

[GuestSpeaker]

Also why would you have to post a link to manga pages I can't read? You'll send me into translation withdrawal....

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Also why would you have to post a link to manga pages I can't read? You'll send me into translation withdrawal....

Because the scene was important for what it showed not for what was said and that part isn't translated yet in English anyway.

Plus, it's the only version of that scene available in manga format so it's not like I could chose differently.

[GuestSpeaker]

Sorry, that wasn't a real attack on you, I merely meant that even seeing untranslated Manga pages has my addiction spiking, even if they had a good reason to be there.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Sorry, that wasn't a real attack on you, I merely meant that even seeing untranslated Manga pages has my addiction spiking, even if they had a good reason to be there.

I apologize, I misunderstood your words. Let's hope we'll see more translations soon! (Especially for EP 8 since they might contain some solutions...)

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

I highly doubt that. For one thing, that was Battler's theory in the EP4 tea party, and pretty much everything he said there other than Kinzo being dead was wrong, so it would be strange for that to be right. For another, Will said there were no falsehoods in Rudolf, Kyrie and Hideyoshi's final moments as told.

What, so now it has to be wrong because Battler suggested it based on a reasonable interpretation of the facts... but the one thing he definitely did get right is totally an exception? How does that logic work?