2010-10-28, 13:52 | Link #2101 | |
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A creator receiving criticism for something doesn't have to be by e-mail, someone on a forum criticizing a work or creator is still viable as the creator is still being criticized at the end of the day. In fact that tends to show more than e-mails, as it is a show of the immediate reaction of fans to the work, or character. It doesn't have to be by e-mail. And also judging by the way he reacted to questions in interviews regarding Ranka he was very much aware of the criticism. To say differently is to completely ignore the knee-jerk reactions that fans across the globe had towards her character in the last episodes. Just like the love triangle we know that Kawamori received a lot of criticism for not ending it, but we don't need e-mails to prove it. By the way e-mails are something that are private. There is no way to tell whether or not a creator receives a direct e-mail criticizing him/her on the work that they created. In other words your being very unrealistic. |
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2010-10-28, 14:06 | Link #2102 |
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I did ask you for number lol...how many TV viewers have expressed their views in internet...
At the end of the day you only have "internet forum" to "prove" your so called "criticism against Ranka"...I am just trying to suggest that internet forum doesn't equal to real life...If a company only uses opinion from internet as the only mean of market research then that company is doomed (not to mention that there are so many anime discussion forums...have you visited them all..not just "I heard a guy who said ppl hate Ranka on another forum" ??) I don't wanna put more fuel into fire so I would just stop, but really, so many things you perceive as fact could be just merely a speculation
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2010-10-28, 14:08 | Link #2104 | ||
Alto x Ranka :)
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But if we go solely by the conversation between Alto and Ranka, then it was just the timing which was just wrong. I believe Ranka did want to tell Alto every part of her plan but Ai-kun's interruption didn't help much (and Brera's arrival was just icing on the cake so-to-speak.) This also brings me back to an earlier point in which I've mentioned a specific line that seems to slightly explain Ranka's idealistic plan. If you have some time, check episode 21 where Alto and Ranka are having their conversation (that is, before Ai-kun shows up. The timing should be [18:00 - 18:25]) Ranka states something along the lines of, "everyone wants...to live free, don't they?" (Actually, this is right before Ai-kun shows up.) My interpretation of this line is that she really did want to somehow find peace between Humanity and Frontier, at least this could be one way of interpreting it.
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2010-10-28, 14:39 | Link #2105 | |
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And think about this for a moment if you were a creator whose opinion would matter more to you a single e-mail from a fan, or the opinion of many fans on the message boards. One only represents one fan and another represents a lot. Also this is the new age where creators do lurk forums to find out what fan reaction to certain events in their series were, because people are busy and they don't always have time to e-mail the creator about every complaint they have about the series. Also unfortunately for your opinion behind every post is a person. Posts are not just randomly generated by a computer people have to type them. The fact that so many people had a problem with one character across the on both sides of the Pacific reflects badly on the creator especially when the viewers aren't supposed to hate them. And just to prove you wrong look at the incident with the pineapple cake. There would be no way Kawamori would know about that meme if he wasn't aware of the various Macross message boards. And for entertainment industry market research is everything, because if a television show continues to do things that the fandom views as unfavorable then they'll lose ratings, and they won't sell as much merchandise. And the best way to find out what fans think about a specific product is to lurk forums. And you're also wrong in thinking that that's unsafe for a company to base its marketing off of what fans think and post in message boards, considering that there have been series that owe their popularity to the internet; most triumphant example- Naruto. |
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2010-10-28, 22:40 | Link #2106 |
One PUNCH!
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Calm down people!
Now that the discussion is starting to turn off-topic, I'm going to have to squash it before it gets out of hand. Any more discussion along the lines of justavistior and wisteria's last posts is off-topic and will be deleted on sight. We're discussing Ranka not Kawamori. And stop with the petty insults as well. You do realize that it cuts both ways, right? |
2010-10-28, 23:06 | Link #2107 | ||||
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Which is, of course, pretty much what happened. I just think it would've happened faster had Grace not been involved. Quote:
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But yeah...I'd imagine that from the Ranka-I-Am-Disappoint school of thought, having her listen to Alto on the cable car, and then later nearly sacrifice herself, would go a long way towards addressing the issues people had. Just as Sheryl being more instantly likable might quell some Sheryl-hate out there (although how ANYONE can hate Sheryl is beyond me, really...some people just jealous, I guess ). |
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2010-10-28, 23:57 | Link #2108 | |
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Well there is actually very little Sheryl hate out there, but as to why some viewers hated her was because their still stuck on their first impression on her and refuse to change their view. Well first impressions can sometimes leave a more lasting effect on some people, especially with fictional characters. There are those who judge purely on first impressions, and don't take into account whatever actions the character does in the future, whether bad or good. Some people that are really stubborn in this respect and refuse to start liking or disliking a character based solely on the first impression that they perceived, no matter how that character develops for better or for worse. |
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2010-10-29, 03:20 | Link #2109 | ||
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And Sheryl would be dead as well.
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2010-10-29, 03:45 | Link #2110 | |||
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Of course if you want to compare the motivations of Ranka and Leon as equally valid, go ahead. I can surely draw interesting comparisons between the two. If the series would be concerned with real physics, everybody wouldn't even be there. Shocking, I tell you!
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2010-10-29, 04:00 | Link #2111 | |
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You mean you really CAN'T catch a tuna in space...? Way to crush my childhood dreams, Magnus. |
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2010-10-29, 04:36 | Link #2112 | |
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Well, let's handwave that, then.
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2010-10-29, 09:06 | Link #2113 | |||
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2010-11-01, 07:39 | Link #2114 | ||
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The Kindness law? Meant that the andalites under no circumstances are to share their technology with other species. I wonder if that's how Ranka would have been remembered, if not as a traitor. Quote:
The people were desperate. They would want revenge, answers and supplies, and they were in the hands of a megalomaniac. On top of that, there's Frontier's mission to find inhabitable planets as well. All Leon would need to do is go "guess what, Vajra has an Earth-class planet a fold away from here". By killing the Vajra and taking over the planet, Frontier would essentially solve all their problems. Also, the destructive desperation and anger that the people felt would be channeled into the genocide of the Vajra, solving the problem of any revolutions. But then again, Leon is a villain who assassinated his girlfriend's father for his own political ambitions. He's supposed to be seen as in the wrong. Ranka, on the other hand, is a heroine. In fact, she marketed as THE heroine, both in our world and in Macross' world. Her total lack of reaction towards Gilliam's death (the Vajra squeeeeeezed him to death, which was unnecessarily cruel, and even vicious, instead of completing its main objective of getting Ranka out of Frontier, that doesn't bode well for humantradi-Vajra relations) when there was a cute boy around (most of her after-attack thing is finding out who Alto is, not if there's a memorial service for the soldier who saved her and Alto's lives). Her similar disregard for Michael's fate (Klan was trapped in a glass tube, yet these supposedly non-violent Vajra goes after her instead of Ranka). Ranka's belief that Vajra are nice is because Ai-kun is nice TO HER. She has already witnessed the unnecessary cruelty with which Vajra dispose of people. So this means that there can be several schools of thought: A.) Ranka believes that the Vajra will leave Frontier alone if she leaves, and that she can reason with them. This means that she knows that she has a special Vajra-connection. Which means that every time Ai-kun is nice to her, it isn't and indicator of how nice the species as a whole are. Instead, it's his interactions with other humantradi who should judge whether or not he's vicious. And we already knows how he treats Alto['s paper-planes], hence even Ai-kun could be considered vicious. Coupled with the unnecessary violence the rest of the Vajra exhibit, we have Ranka running to a vicious enemy, and she may or may not have an inkling about what she's doing. B.) Ranka runs away from the responsibilities she has on Frontier. Only vaguely knowing that she MIGHT be able to communicate with Vajra, but her main motivation is to get away from Alto/Sheryl and keeping her pet from dying, now that he's too large to be hidden, any communications that are opened are a bonus. She doesn't really care about what her actions will do in terms with Frontier's fate. That the Vajra will wipe them out. That morale will hit an all-time low. She just doesn't care. C.) Other theories. This is in direct contrast to Macross Quarter leaving. They already know that they'll be destroyed if they stay, and they are now searching for tangible evidence to oust Leon. What Ranka is doing is based on vague feelings. Coupled with her "MEMEMEMEmemememe!"-centric point of view, it's very likely wrong. Ai-kun is nice TO HER. She had a special connection to Vajra. Ai-kun dislikes OTHERS. She never makes a connection between the two facts she thinks are right. Even Alto, who doesn't have relatives in the military, throws up when he remembers Gilliam's sacrifice. Ranka, who has a brother in the military and very likely knows Michael and Luca from the military, asks about the cute guy who saved her life and not about the guy who died. Ranka is the personification of tunnel vision, and it never bites her in the ass (except when she sees Alto and Sheryl on a rooftop, thinking that a coordinated flight stunt was a personal declaration of love from Alto, rather than a declaration of gratitude from the people). And she's surrounded by people, even people who never personally meet her, who enable this ("She wasn't a traitor?!" says the generals). This was actually changed in the movie, with Ranka being more concerned about others and having a harder time rising to the top, thus making her more likable. No sudden messiah figure here. With TV!Ranka my like level is somewhere at -25 (-100 would be total hate, +100 would be total love), but with Movie!Ranka it's at 0, because she is burdened with TV!Ranka's history in my mind (otherwise she would be at +25). The thing is, TV!Ranka's motivations are all over the place, and often self-centered. In fact, they are so vague and jumping around so much that fans of Macross Frontier can, years later, still sit down and argue about the "Why"s of what was her major character development/refinement scene/action. So, when discussing the three factions we have: Ranka: Grasping at smoke. (She did fall into Grace's clutches.) Quarter: Grasping and collecting straws. (The more straws they collect, the stronger their position.) Leon: Grasping hot steel. (Solid, burning, rapidly melting and weakening.) Galaxy: The people who are stomping on the others' fingers. The thing is, Ranka wasn't shown to be right by her actions. She was shown to be right by Quarter and Frontier showing up and saving the day. Had those two not decided to fold to Vajra planet on that day? Bye, bye free will/99.9% of humantradi population. If Quarter and Frontier hadn't shown up. Ranka would have played part in the destruction of natural humantradi (I think it's indicated that Galaxy requires implants simply because they can hijack everyone into their zombie army. They need the Vajra to make it universal, though). And she's THE heroine. |
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2010-11-01, 10:20 | Link #2115 |
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That was one analytic rant of righteousness. Very true in all accounts, but one: I think Ai-kun actually was neutral to others ( except paper planes ). He seemed okay with Nanase, at the very least.
I'd love to give you some rep, but I fear I've got to spread some points around before that. I hope I remember to go back to this post when I can in the future.
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2010-11-01, 12:14 | Link #2116 | |
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There's a lot that I could pick apart here...mostly inference and opinion disguised as fact, but it's 2:00 AM and I'm tired, so I'll focus on only two things for now:
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The fact that you put humans and the race that almost brought humanity to extinction belies your argument about the Vajra. The Zentradi attack was many magnitudes worse than anything the Vajra did...and now, they (mostly) peacefully coexist with humanity. Incidentally, I bought another copy of Volume 3 of the Frontier novels (since my other copy is in storage back in Los Angeles) to see if any light was shed on Ranka's motives during her departure scene. (And yeah, I know no one's sure if the novels "count" for TV series continuity. I can't find anything that says that Kawamori went over the text of the book, as some have claimed. But, as Magnus rightly pointed out, I can't find anything that says he DIDN'T. Yes, I know, irony and all that...) Anyway, I didn't find what I was hoping for, but it's interesting that, in the novel (the scene starts on page 300), Ranka ALMOST convinces Alto. When she says that he shouldn't kill Ai-kun, because Ai-kun's done nothing wrong, Alto immediately thinks of Klan. That the Zentradi nearly exterminated humanity, and yet Klan is his friend. The Zentradi are the Zentradi, but Klan is Klan. He finally pushes this line of thinking out of his head and prepares to attack Ai-kun again.
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2010-11-01, 12:27 | Link #2117 | ||
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That's pretty rich coming from Mr. "I totally assume that Ranka knows that she is the sole reason without any evidence whatsoever!".
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As to the point you are raising, my answer is basically the same as two paragraphs above. It speaks to Altos humanity and intellect that he immediately thought of the Zentraedi/Vajra comparison, but in the end the Vajra were the worst portrayed opponent of all the Macross TV series, because they were such cyphers. Their motivations were laid bare much too late for us and for the characters. Ranka was by all evidence not cognizant of what their motivations were until episode 25, where we can chalk up her instant communication skill as a side effect of Graces manipulations of the Vajra queen.
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2010-11-01, 12:32 | Link #2118 | |
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I'm moving this to PM. Besides, you can detach Irisiel's point apart from anything I've said. Let's look at that sentence again: "Ranka's belief that Vajra are nice is because Ai-kun is nice TO HER." Ranka believed the Vajra were nice? I don't remember her saying that. And I also don't remember any lines that indicated Ai-kun being nice to her caused any kind of epiphany for her. So yeah, I'd like proof.
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2010-11-01, 13:13 | Link #2119 |
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But if Ai-kun's niceness didn't influence Ranka, doesn't that make Ranka even more illogical and stupid? After all, excluding Ai-kun, all Vajra that Ranka have met or seen have exclusively tried to wipe out the humantradi species.
And yes, I call them humantradi because at this point in the story? Humans and Zentradi get along. Since they are able to produce fertile offspring together they are also the same species, possibly different sub-species. They were part of Protoculture, while Vajra were not. The closest connection that humantradi have with Vajra is the Bird Human and a virus. Also, if Ranka did not believe the Vajra capable of being nice, why would she try to reason with them? If the Vajra cannot play nice, and they really have no reason to play nice (after all, they can wipe out all humantradi), wouldn't it be the height of idiocy to run away and try to reason with them? To try to communicate with the giant, killer bugs who either wants to kidnap you and kill all you love, or just kill you? In that scenario it's a kill or be killed thing. The Vajra never lacked culture beyond war, they effectively think in a completely different way than humantradi. They are a hive mind with a queen in the center (which makes it illogical to retrieve Ranka, or listen to Ranka and Sheryl, because they would be rival queens confusing the network, preferably to be killed, but that is a small plot weakness). While one can compare the situation between Vajra and Zentradi, one cannot compare the two species in relation to humans. Human and Zentradi talk. Human and Zentradi loves songs, acting, painting and other cultural and creative activities for the acts themselves. Vajra sing in order to mate. That's like comparing a human singer with a cicada. And if we were to know why Ranka thought herself able to communicate effectively (as in, actually getting a message across and not mimicking their mating call infinitely) with the Vajra, we should have been shown her pose these questions, gets answers and then plan accordingly. But instead we get a "did she just run away to Vajra-planet? WTF? What is she thinking?!" and discussions like these. |
2010-11-01, 13:30 | Link #2120 | |||||
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