[Manga] Chapter 399 Discussion

[Big_Papi]

It's funny how people fail to realize the life styles of certain people from before and after. You can pretty much say that Tsunade didnt do much training in her gambling days, thus now being a "Hokage" which it's main purpose rank is "protecting the village", she would be forced to maintain a training schedule, and lets not forget her training with Sakura for 2 1/2 years too wich ment she would have had to spar with her. And in conclusion... Being the "Hokage" give her access to all documents to the village which mean forbidden jutsus, technique, ninja specs, etc. now with all that you really think Sasuke which now has no CS and not able to summon Manda nor I believe has his Kusunagi Sword anymore can beat some one like Tsunade right now.

[Kakashi]

Kakashi is the perfect ninja in almost every way, the perfect all rounder. Tsunade is very one dimensional in combat. Which is why I find it hard to believe that Kakashi would loose. Especially now that he has the Mangekyou. I ignore the fact that Tsunade is one of the 'Legendary Sannin' which is what James seems to be basing his belief on. Fine, I simply prefer not to credit someone just because of a title. She hasn't impressed me yet.

Orochimaru is stronger then Tsunade > Sasuke defeated Orochimaru > Sasuke would defeat Tsunade

That's the reason why I'm so decisive that Sasuke would overwhelm Tsunade. Basically.

[mayhem]

Originally Posted by kakashi-san

Kakashi is the perfect ninja in almost every way, the perfect all rounder. Tsunade is very one dimensional in combat. Which is why I find it hard to believe that Kakashi would loose. Especially now that he has the Mangekyou. I ignore the fact that Tsunade is one of the 'Legendary Sannin' which is what James seems to be basing his belief on. Fine, I simply prefer not to credit someone just because of a title. She hasn't impressed me yet.

Orochimaru is stronger then Tsunade > Sasuke defeated Orochimaru > Sasuke would defeat Tsunade

That's the reason why I'm so decisive that Sasuke would overwhelm Tsunade. Basically.

Your talking about sasuke defeating oro in a genjutsu world and in a weakened state....horrible way to compare powers against an uchiha. But I do believe sasuke is stronger then tsunade but none-the-less its still a horribly way to compare power and capability.

[Kakashi]

Regardless Sasuke used a combination of cunning and his own strength to defeat Orochimaru prematurely. To truly beat him at full strength he would have to have had trained for a while longer but a wins and win. Suprise is valid tactic.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by kakashi-san

Kakashi is the perfect ninja in almost every way, the perfect all rounder. Tsunade is very one dimensional in combat. Which is why I find it hard to believe that Kakashi would loose. Especially now that he has the Mangekyou. I ignore the fact that Tsunade is one of the 'Legendary Sannin' which is what James seems to be basing his belief on. Fine, I simply prefer not to credit someone just because of a title. She hasn't impressed me yet.

I am not basing anything on the fact that she was a Sannin. I am arguing that no one would be elected Hokage if they were, in fact, weak or otherwise easily defeatable. Rather you last line her is what is important. She has done nothing yet to fully confirm or deny her strength. After she has been humilated in a fight, which is undoubtedly what Kishimoto will do for a variety of reasons, then we can all firmly say that she was weak, but until Kishimoto takes out his sexual bias stick (partially joking) and beats Tsunade up, there is no way to say she is not strong, and the fact that she was elected Hokage more or less proves that she is strong.

Originally Posted by kakashi-san

Orochimaru is stronger then Tsunade > Sasuke defeated Orochimaru > Sasuke would defeat Tsunade

By this logic: Naruto is stronger than Sasuke. Sauske lost to Lee, who lost to Gaara, who lost to Naruto (or Sasuke < Lee < Gaara < Naruto so, Sasuke < Naruto ). The fact that this is plainly false should tell you not to compare wins and losses for future fights (the fact that Orochimaru never actually fought Tsunade should also be an indicator, but that si besides the point), to do so is just silly and unproductive to discussion.

[Big_Papi]

Originally Posted by kakashi-san

Regardless Sasuke used a combination of cunning and his own strength to defeat Orochimaru prematurely. To truly beat him at full strength he would have to have had trained for a while longer but a wins and win. Suprise is valid tactic.

What your doing right now is assuming Sasuke would have been able to defeat Orochimaru.. if you somehow just heard that he "just" beat orochimaru.. Sasuke was smart enpugh to comfront Oro at a time where his strengh was at a pathetic level.

[Blerghovic]

Originally Posted by kakashi-san

Regardless Sasuke used a combination of cunning and his own strength to defeat Orochimaru prematurely. To truly beat him at full strength he would have to have had trained for a while longer but a wins and win. Suprise is valid tactic.

I agree, ninja don't exactly fight fair. In the ninja world, if you're dumb enough to get caught off guard, you're gonna die. There's a difference between being a good ninja and being powerful. Intelligence is one of the biggest factors, I could write about why but all you need to do is look at Shikamaru's fight against Hidan (an immortal Akatsuki member defeated by Chuunin).

However, that's not the point. Frankly I don't care whether kakashi-san is a Sasuke lover or not, his point is valid. As he is now Sasuke would defeat Tsunade. Just look the Akatsuki fights to see how strong he's become. As well as this he's quite well matched to Tsunade. His speed, sword and control over his lightning affinity negate Tsunade's strength.

Preparation is everything and Orochimaru simply got outwitted by Sasuke. The fight probably began as soon as Sasuke arrived to train with Oro. Surely he couldn't have been so stupid not to notice Sasuke's nature, his lack of respect for Orochimaru in general and his goal to get revenge. Oro must have been cautious but underestimated Sasuke's strength (it's likely he hid his strength).

[Sagittarius]

Oro was just an idiot, and deserved to die. He lost to the sharigan. Not once BUT TWICE!! You'd think after getting owned by Itachi he'd of thought of some way to neutralize the Sharigan, but nope, he didn't. He got as far as the soul transfer dimension, but then with a simple blink of an eye everything he worked for came to ABRUPT hault, all his dreams and many years of work GONE. How the hell could someone so smart, be so...........stupid?



Tsunade I think is underestimated, if the two old advisors had no problem with her being Hokage, and all they do is conspire and assess any develloping situations and they were ok with Tsunade, she must have some sort of Hokage worthy powers.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by james3wk

I agree with you that it would not be interesting, but as it stands, unless there is another time skip soon, Sasuke does not have enough time to train-up his new abilities. Most of his abilities, pre-Itachi fight, were supplimented or outright performed by or with the CS (i.e. Sasuke trained extensively in the CS, making the usage of said seal useable for all of his attacks). Now, he has lost that ability. And while the CS and White Snake were a crutch to Sasuke's true potential, there is absolutely no believable way he could unlock said potential in the few weeks or months of in-world time that is left for the Akatsuki storyline (this could be an indicator that there will be a time-skip soon, in which Madara and Sasuke train-up and re-create the Akatsuki in order to do...something, but I doubt this will happen).

And while he has a potential MS, it could be only one technique (the more damaging Amaterasu) and it will take more than a month to learn how to use than in non-Madara situations.

Another timeskip? Considering how he easily handled Yamato, Sai, Sakura and Naruto all at the same time without cursed seal I don't think there's anything that warrants Sasuke getting another training timeskip. With just the powers he has right now, I think the only people that can seriously match him are the members of Akatsuki (to the point where not having CS would be a serious handicap). With MS, Sasuke will be basically be equal or close to Itachi's level of strength, which should be more than enough to match against anyone save maybe Pein, Madara (Kabuto?). If he is going to get powered-up, I don't think it will take much time for Sasuke to reach a new level, Sharingan power-up's are usually instantaneous anyway.

Originally Posted by Big_Papi

It's funny how people fail to realize the life styles of certain people from before and after. You can pretty much say that Tsunade didnt do much training in her gambling days, thus now being a "Hokage" which it's main purpose rank is "protecting the village", she would be forced to maintain a training schedule, and lets not forget her training with Sakura for 2 1/2 years too wich ment she would have had to spar with her. And in conclusion... Being the "Hokage" give her access to all documents to the village which mean forbidden jutsus, technique, ninja specs, etc. now with all that you really think Sasuke which now has no CS and not able to summon Manda nor I believe has his Kusunagi Sword anymore can beat some one like Tsunade right now.

Sparring with genin Sakura's not going to help Tsunade's strength anymore than a heavyweight champion sparring with a 4-year old. Their strength is just too far apart for it to matter for Tsunade. As far as having access to secret jutsu, Sarutobi was Hokage for decades and was said to know all of Konoha's techniques, but none of that allowed him to beat Orochimaru.

Just comparing their abilities as of right now, I think Sasuke would probably defeat Tsunade. Mostly because of his speed, since Tsunade hasn't really demonstrated any attacks that aren't close-range.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

As far as having access to secret jutsu, Sarutobi was Hokage for decades and was said to know all of Konoha's techniques, but none of that allowed him to beat Orochimaru.

Wait, wasn't it because of a secret jutsu that Konoha has that "allowed" Sarutobi to drive Orochimaru off, effectively ending the siege? So, I guess some of those secret jutsus might be helpful .

If Tsunade is truly as one-dimensional in her battle techniques as her one pseudo-battle encounter has led many to believe, then, of course Sasuke would win. But, since Kishimoto has gone out of his way in Part II to expand on all of the abilities of the Sannin, at least in regards to their summons, why wouldn't he do the same for Tsunade? There is simply no point in discussing her combat abilities without any real data to back up our claims, so can we simply stop talking about it (I have had this exact converstaion too often in recent chapters.)

[HiroInazuma]

Originally Posted by reloaded

I was comparing their speeds at both genin level, Lee and Sasuke before he left the village (had some speed training from kakashi), in addition this has nothing to do whatsoever with speed according to ranks...all i was saying is in short if Tsunade had better speed she would be able to land her killer punches more regularly and have a higher chance of hitting the opponent...simple thats the point I was making.

Uchiha speed compared to Kage's speed.....hm....Uchiha's win, even with the sharingan Kakashi could not see Itachi's hand seals, also Itachi could pull out something and you wouldn't realize till 5 mins later that he did it, same with Sasuke just look at how fast he did that replacement, even though he may not be able to do that again Sasuke is still very fast. Naruto blinked and missed Sasuke attacking.

Also with the whole Sasuke losing his CS as long as Sasuke has sharingan he can win against Naruto, Sakura, Sai and Yamato I mean look at the fight post-timeskip with Team Kakashi and Sasuke, Sasuke beat them without even using any of his powerful jutsus and then was about to use his final to kill them all.

If Sasuke was against Kakashi and Gai he would put up a challenge but in the end he might lose it but if he uses kirin then he may be able to kill Kakashi and Gai also with Sasuke's genjutsu capabilities he could put Gai under a powerful genjutsu.

Also why does everybody hate on Sasuke? I like his fights and the way that with most Uchihas they do not always bring in the same old crap that we have seen before (Naruto, Ino, TenTen, Kiba) with Sasuke we always see new jutsus maybe it is because he is killing off people's favourite characters. Even though he can be annoying and emo sometimes so can Naruto

[TooPurePureBoy]

Didn't Jiraya say that it was Tsunade's creative ninjutsu that stopped the last ninja war ? Or was that anime filler?

The way I see it, Tsunade is the strongest ninja in Konoha, otherwise she wouldn't be Hokage. There is probably a lot of abilities of hers we haven't seen yet.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james3wk

Actually, I have no idea why Gaara is still Kazekage. Can he even use his sand powers anymore? The manga never clarified that issue. Additionally, even if he could use the powers still, Gaara contained the Ichibi for his entire life, whereas Sasuke only had the CS for 2.5 to 3 years. So, I doubt there would be any care-over in terms of ability

Maybe because Gaara is that strong on his own, that's what Kishimoto says: he was good as a ninja, so a tailed monster was not the base of his strength but it was his own ability and determination. And we see Naruto following the same pattern, as Kishimoto makes both Kakashi and Yamato tell him that he should not rely on the monster because he is good enough without it. For Gaara we did see how he lost his battle against Naruto relying on his monster, and afterwards he completely changed and he became kazekage in 3 years time. I remember we had a little debate about the "moral message" of the story, well i guess this is one important part of that: Gaara and Naruto are meant to be strong without the monster.

Originally Posted by james3wk

I completely agree that there are other large snakes that Sasuke could potentially use, what I was reffering to in regards to losing the contract was the fact that he specifically killed one of the summon, the Boss Summon at that, to save his own life. If I was a snake, I would never respond to Sasuke summons, because I would fear for my life

Well he used the summon in self defense, but summons are just tools, so i guess it's natural to use them even for suicide moves.

[reloaded]

Originally Posted by HiroInazuma

Uchiha speed compared to Kage's speed.....hm....Uchiha's win, even with the sharingan Kakashi could not see Itachi's hand seals, also Itachi could pull out something and you wouldn't realize till 5 mins later that he did it, same with Sasuke just look at how fast he did that replacement, even though he may not be able to do that again Sasuke is still very fast. Naruto blinked and missed Sasuke attacking.

ahhh you have to see the post which I was refering to...I wasnt doing any sort of Uchiha VS thingy.

Originally Posted by Nine-Tails-Nin

The way I see it, Tsunade is the strongest ninja in Konoha, otherwise she wouldn't be Hokage. There is probably a lot of abilities of hers we haven't seen yet.

Not necassarily, I dont think shes stronger than Jiraiya nor Kakashi in my opinion. She only got the title because Jiraiya wasnt up for it.

[Slave0fLife]

I didn't read all the posts, but used the "find" tool to try to see if someone mentioned this: everyone who is using Tsunade's only fight to try and compare, have you thought that the seal she used to heal her body might not be 100% effective? I don't remember if the manga showed us this or if it said that she was 100% healed, but maybe she was tired (although putting up a totally recovered stance) and not able to be all she could be. Don't have time to find the manga chapter to see this, so if I am wrong about this please correct me.

[HiroInazuma]

Originally Posted by Slave0fLife

I didn't read all the posts, but used the "find" tool to try to see if someone mentioned this: everyone who is using Tsunade's only fight to try and compare, have you thought that the seal she used to heal her body might not be 100% effective? I don't remember if the manga showed us this or if it said that she was 100% healed, but maybe she was tired (although putting up a totally recovered stance) and not able to be all she could be. Don't have time to find the manga chapter to see this, so if I am wrong about this please correct me.

Even if she uses the seal she will return to her old form and if the fight drags on for too long she might not be able to keep up

[astayanax]

Most Uchihas from what we saw aren't really all that fast. Only Itachi and Sasuke shown speed that is extra-ordinary.

[Sakuranbo]

This chapter was filled with the usual expected "Uchiha-centric" goodness, but at least it expounded a little more on the fight between Shodaime and Madara. It seems like Madara is really playing the "martyr" role to Sasuke, anyone else think so?

[HiroInazuma]

Originally Posted by KurayamiLeader

This chapter was filled with the usual expected "Uchiha-centric" goodness, but at least it expounded a little more on the fight between Shodaime and Madara. It seems like Madara is really playing the "martyr" role to Sasuke, anyone else think so?

The heathen senju leader Hashirama Senju murdered the the wise Uchiha Madara but the God of Heaven allowed him to live whilst the evil senju burns in hell, PRAISE BE UNTO OUR LORD!!!

Kishi is getting better at writing shown by this chapter and the previous chapter

[Slave0fLife]

Originally Posted by KurayamiLeader

This chapter was filled with the usual expected "Uchiha-centric" goodness, but at least it expounded a little more on the fight between Shodaime and Madara. It seems like Madara is really playing the "martyr" role to Sasuke, anyone else think so?

Yes, the part where he says (at least from my translation) "I was only trying to protect the Uchiha, that's all..." especially, doesn't fit. I hope Sasuke isn't gullible to believe these things head on.