[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[MUDSKIP]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well imho the siestas connection with Maria's rabbits only prove that Maria is the one who created them. However if you believe in the anti-mystery you should know that the mariage-sorciere allow any member to use the furnitures of other witches, and if you believe in the anti-fantasy then you'd rather see the siestas=guns connection.

Either way this is a weak argument to point Maria as a culprit. She isn't physically capable to perform all those murders, she weights 28 Kg she probably isn't even capable to use the guns and pull the trigger.

Even the idea that she is the mastermind isn't very credible. I think it's quite clear now that a person who claim herself as Beatrice exists. And the only thing we are 100% sure of is that that person is not Maria. Since we know that this "Beatrice" exists, I see no reason to think Maria is lying about the fact she is the disciple. As for being an accomplice this is most probable and that was clear even before the siestas appeared. You could suspect Maria since episode1.

If my theory that the anti-mystery, or 'magic truth' scenes that we see, are directly related to what happens in the anti-fantasy, or 'human culprit truth' holds any water at all, then this makes Maria directly linked to the crimes...but a theory is a theory, and you can prove facts with theories. XD I think it's very hard to believe she's not a major piece in some fashion though, with the Siesta Sisters, the way she's depicted in the OP videos, the Black King's crown from chess on her head, and her fascination of Beatrice, witches, and magic. Of course, this is all circumstantial and can be dismissed easily; Again, it just seems TOO MUCH of a coincidence to me.

[k//eternal]

I was thinking about the meaning of Maria as the "Black King" also... if the game is chess, then she's a fairly defenseless but critical piece. Suppose Beato or the culprit is the Black Queen, then Maria doesn't have to be a mastermind, culprit, or even an accomplice, but the culprit will act in a way that they think will help Maria.

In that case, Maria's death indicates the presence of a second culprit (or team of culprits) whose motives are completely different, which is something people have suspected all along, of course.

It's possible that the first twilight is done "for Maria" (especially blatant in EP2's "happy halloween") by the first team / "Beato", which causes the second team to form as a bunch of vigilantes trying to kill the first group. The Beato team wants to make Maria happy, and so they kill the people who they think are bullying her, thus excluding the cousins and Nanjo as pointed out before (Nanjo didn't exactly interact much with her, after all).

[Marion]

Bully her? Shannon and Kanon are overall nice to Maria. Heck Kanon even offers to give his lollipop candy back to Maria after seeing Rosa stomp on hers. And I'm pretty sure that only Rosa thinks her siblings are mocking Maria and herself, when you can easily interpret their reactions to stuff Maria says as 'oh what a cute innocent child' or something like that.

Of course this is all in the idea that the culprit believes they're bullying Maria, but if that's the case I think you can only apply that ideology to Rosa, imo.

[k//eternal]

Certainly after she pulls out the first letter, the adults freaking out over it could be seen as bullying her. Not sure about Kanon/Shannon. You could say that the "Black Queen" culprit doing the first twilight applies only to EP2 (since in other EPs there wasn't that "for Maria" statement attached).

I was just musing about it, really; the landslide, poison, and Fight Club theories are the only ones I'm really betting on to some degree for now

[Shadow Miko]

I've just started playing but I'm wondering something here myself that is probably fairly obvious. Because of that I'd like to hear what others have said on the subject?

Spoiler:

Is there some kind of connection between the Sumadera family and the Sonozaki family? Both seem to be traditional, both have twins born as heirs (?), fairly well off, torture, etc. Or is this just coincidence?

[rogerpepitone]

I thought it was mentioned that Rosa is in trouble because she'd cosigned on some bad loans, not because of problems with Anti-Rosa.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by MUDSKIP

If my theory that the anti-mystery, or 'magic truth' scenes that we see, are directly related to what happens in the anti-fantasy, or 'human culprit truth' holds any water at all, then this makes Maria directly linked to the crimes...but a theory is a theory, and you can prove facts with theories. XD I think it's very hard to believe she's not a major piece in some fashion though, with the Siesta Sisters, the way she's depicted in the OP videos, the Black King's crown from chess on her head, and her fascination of Beatrice, witches, and magic. Of course, this is all circumstantial and can be dismissed easily; Again, it just seems TOO MUCH of a coincidence to me.

I do think the anti-mystery can be a metaphor of the real world, but how exactly you connect ceramic rabbits with murders? I mean at least in the case of the stakes I can see a connection.
As I said I really don't think this siesta-maria connection can give us more infos than we already knew. Maria knows Beatrice, we already know that. My guess is that Maria decided to give to the guns the personality of her own imaginary rabbit friends as a way to play her witch's game. Or maybe it was Beatrice's own decision to do so. I can't see anything more than this.

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I was thinking about the meaning of Maria as the "Black King" also... if the game is chess, then she's a fairly defenseless but critical piece. Suppose Beato or the culprit is the Black Queen, then Maria doesn't have to be a mastermind, culprit, or even an accomplice, but the culprit will act in a way that they think will help Maria.

In that case, Maria's death indicates the presence of a second culprit (or team of culprits) whose motives are completely different, which is something people have suspected all along, of course.

It's possible that the first twilight is done "for Maria" (especially blatant in EP2's "happy halloween") by the first team / "Beato", which causes the second team to form as a bunch of vigilantes trying to kill the first group. The Beato team wants to make Maria happy, and so they kill the people who they think are bullying her, thus excluding the cousins and Nanjo as pointed out before (Nanjo didn't exactly interact much with her, after all).

It is stated in red that because of Battler's sin people die on Rokkenjima, so I hardly see how this could have done just for Maria's sake.

I thought it was mentioned that Rosa is in trouble because she'd cosigned on some bad loans, not because of problems with Anti-Rosa.

The Rosa situation is the less clear of the four siblings. However it is stated both things. She has problem with her cosigners, and she's also not having good sales. The last part is hinted when Eva jokingly said that Rosa has a lot of talent as a fashion designer and everyone knew that was a sarcastic remark because she actually isn't doing well.

[Von Himmel]

It is stated in red that because of Battler's sin people die on Rokkenjima, so I hardly see how this could have done just for Maria's sake.

As long as she didn't mention that it was because of he that caused a direct cause, you can even think that it was because of Battler that Maria became the 'king'. Then because Maria became the 'king', the killing happens ;( Whatever the reason is, Maria might got affected in some way. Let's just say that she might be the key, and probably a pinnacle to Battler's sin ? That's why the killer had more affection towards Maria
Battler ---> Maria ---> Killing.
lol j/k. *kicked

[Valentine]

Originally Posted by MUDSKIP

Digging through red text:

# `Natsuhi's own key was in George's pocket, and the inside of the room was closed off. (　夏妃自身の鍵は譲治のポケットに入って、室内に閉じ込められていた )
# `Only the five master keys were left, and 'Rosa' was holding all of them! (あとは５本のマスターキーしかないが、それは全て“楼座”が持っているッ！ )


Also I remember in Ep4 Beatrice saying after Rosa collected all the keys, she never gave them out, except to Battler when he opened the door to Natsuhi's room with George/Shannon's corpse

Therefore, Rosa, in EP2, MUST be an accomplice AT LEAST.
An argument that the door wasn't locked in the first place doesn't work, as Battler checked the door and verified it to be locked before unlocking.

I'm pretty sure Rosa was responsible for the first and second twilights, but there is still an out for Rosa for the Natsuhi's room murders. It's never said in red that the people from the fourth through eighth twilights were actually dead when they were found. The bodies are only given the most cursory examination, and Battler seeing a hole in Shannon's head that the stake appears to have fallen out of is the only real indication that any of them are dead at all. That one thing being faked or misinterpreted somehow would be enough to consider that the room could simply have been locked from the inside by Natsuhi's key that George had in his pocket. Rosa's reaction after this just doesn't seem to me like someone responsible for all the murders that have taken place.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Renall you are forgetting the fact that Jessica's room key was found inside an envelope at the crime scene. This was definitely an intentional act to create a situation where the survivors had to either believe it was a closed room or suspect the servants.

I think your conclusion is likely correct, but the key was just on her dresser, not in an envelope.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Shadow Miko

I've just started playing but I'm wondering something here myself that is probably fairly obvious. Because of that I'd like to hear what others have said on the subject?

Spoiler:

Is there some kind of connection between the Sumadera family and the Sonozaki family? Both seem to be traditional, both have twins born as heirs (?), fairly well off, torture, etc. Or is this just coincidence?

Spoiler for Response:

Although both are a bit more traditional Sonozaki is completely unrelated to Umineko. The only real connection back to Higurashi in human terms this far is Okonogi, but there are doubts he's even the same Okonogi that we know of. It's probably just coincidental on that part.

[rogerpepitone]

Does it say exactly when Natsuhi's key was in George's pocket? Is there anything to prevent Genji from slipping it in while nobody was looking?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Valentine

I think your conclusion is likely correct, but the key was just on her dresser, not in an envelope.

Really? I guess I got some things mixed up...

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Does it say exactly when Natsuhi's key was in George's pocket? Is there anything to prevent Genji from slipping it in while nobody was looking?

This is actually one way to defeat closed rooms. You can tell that the persons that checked the bodies actually slipped the keys in their pockets. So far Battler never thought about this possibility.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Shadow Miko

I've just started playing but I'm wondering something here myself that is probably fairly obvious. Because of that I'd like to hear what others have said on the subject?

Spoiler:

Is there some kind of connection between the Sumadera family and the Sonozaki family? Both seem to be traditional, both have twins born as heirs (?), fairly well off, torture, etc. Or is this just coincidence?

Kyrie and Kasumi aren't twins are they? I thought that Kyrie was the older sister while Kasumi was the younger. I never read anything in the story about them actually being twins.

[Rei-Tenshi]

Were there any theories on why in Ep4, Maria suddenly claimed that it was Kinzo who gave her the letter in the garden (instead of Beatrice like in the other 3 Eps) ?

[Kitsu]

eh~

Well~, maybe Beatrice told her to say that? Or maybe Beatrice altered much more in Ep 4. Like it was said the island called ROkkenjima is now tainted with black and the gameboard changed a lot becuase of that. To Battlers disadvantage.

My meta theory is:
More and more of the people on Rokkenjima gave up and started to believe in magic(tainted with black). More and more magic is shown to a degree in which you can't tell apart illusion form reality, the witnesses are more and more unreliable and the witch seems to be alter almost everything as much as she wants.
If you paid close attention to the tea partys. Jessica denied witches in the tea party 1 ending (shortly before she died, she told Battler that she was weak and started to believe because it was easier and that he shouldn't ever believe in witches). Rosa denied witches as well and gave Battler new hope. And in Ep 3 everyone (including Battler at first) started to believe (the golden Land). That's why I think after Ep 3 the fighting spirit and denial of everyone deceased. Making them really not worth of trust witnesses (example Gohda, Kumasawa, Krauss) who talked about magic. The scenes were altered badly. So the more people believe in magic the more power the witch has(explained in Ep 3 was it) and the more she can alter scenes and events

Edit: Did that actually make sense

Also I'm rereading Ep 1 Tea party

Why did Beatrice kill Kanon? he wanted to disturb her banquet and was killed by the deadly sin he committed (wrath). So~ but we didn't even saw what he did to disturb the banquet. Does that mean he actually is like a theory a hella lot pages back said really trieng to stop the murder from doing it over and over again? that he tries to find the real culprit and remember all games? Just thinking about it... other opinions

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It is stated in red that because of Battler's sin people die on Rokkenjima, so I hardly see how this could have done just for Maria's sake.

If Battler's sin didn't directly affect Beato, but she's personally offended by it, it's not out of the question to assume it has something to do with Maria.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Rei-Tenshi

Were there any theories on why in Ep4, Maria suddenly claimed that it was Kinzo who gave her the letter in the garden (instead of Beatrice like in the other 3 Eps) ?

We can't really trust that statement at all since it was made in a scene that Battler didn't even see. I think it's just foreshadowing for Goldsmith being the villain.

[tcaz2]

Originally Posted by Renall

We can't really trust that statement at all since it was made in a scene that Battler didn't even see. I think it's just foreshadowing for Goldsmith being the villain.

We're shown several times that at least the events of the magic scenes happen in some way, though.

George really did somehow get Natsuhi's key, and a 'Kanon' really did show up in the kitchen/servants room, for two examples.

So it probably did happen.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by tcaz2

We're shown several times that at least the events of the magic scenes happen in some way, though.

George really did somehow get Natsuhi's key, and a 'Kanon' really did show up in the kitchen/servants room, for two examples.

So it probably did happen.

The 'Kanon' can easily be a lie on the servants part though.

[k//eternal]

I thought Beato said they saw him?