(L) Mouretsu Pirates

[Guardian Enzo]

I'm enjoying the geeky, 90's style sci-fi buildup of the show as well. Clearly it takes that aspect seriously and a lot of care goes into the way it's presented.

But I keep seeing reference to people complaining about the slow pace, and I think that really misses the point of what most people are having problems with - at least it does for me. The main issue isn't the fact that there's no action - it's that the show is basically an emotional flatline. There's no highs and lows, no anger, hell, barely any petulance. Everyone has a smile on their face and I can't offhand think of an instance where a character raised their voice. You can't have excitement if there's no sense of danger, and you can't have character development if there's no emotional volatility. Four episodes with no action is fine - but four episodes with no emotion (after the nicely-done scenes between Marika and Ririka in the premiere) seems a bit much to me.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I'm enjoying the geeky, 90's style sci-fi buildup of the show as well. Clearly it takes that aspect seriously and a lot of care goes into the way it's presented.

But I keep seeing reference to people complaining about the slow pace, and I think that really misses the point of what most people are having problems with - at least it does for me. The main issue isn't the fact that there's no action - it's that the show is basically an emotional flatline. There's no highs and lows, no anger, hell, barely any petulance. Everyone has a smile on their face and I can't offhand think of an instance where a character raised their voice. You can't have excitement if there's no sense of danger, and you can't have character development if there's no emotional volatility. Four episodes with no action is fine - but four episodes with no emotion (after the nicely-done scenes between Marika and Ririka in the premiere) seems a bit much to me.

This rings kind of true to me to some extent. Other than the very first episode that had the duo running away from some goons there really hasn't been much of that sort of sense of danger. On the other hand it kind of feels like they are actually building skills for when the show hopefully does make the transition to space pirating and it could be argued that there's some emotional investment to be had in that sort of thing. While the characters aren't growing personality wise, they do seem to be growing experience wise and personally I'm okay with using time to showcase that sort of thing. There does seem to be a purpose behind the likes of what happened in episode 03, but here's the catch....it can't still be doing these sorts of things by the halfway mark. Really all it comes down to too me.

[~BC~]

I think the only problem I have with the pacing is that a lot of this stuff is going to seem incredibly tedious on a second viewing. Also, if they don't put all this information to some serious use once the real pirating begins then it's going to seem like a big waste of time/resources, in retrospect.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by ~BC~

I think the only problem I have with the pacing is that a lot of this stuff is going to seem incredibly tedious on a second viewing.

... *has already watched episodes 1-3 at least four times each, and episode 4 twice*

[Om Nerabdator]

this show is getting a little better but the slow pace is annoying as always plz tell me this is a 24 ep series.

[Random Wanderer]

...Maybe we should have one of the mods put a note in huge bold letters that shows up at the top of every page in the thread, saying "YES THIS SERIES IS 26 EPISODES, STOP ASKING!"

[~BC~]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

... *has already watched episodes 1-3 at least four times each, and episode 4 twice*

LoL, perhaps I should have specified what I meant by "stuff". Namely the science and ship protocols. Interesting the first time but once you know it, you know it.

I should mention I'm enjoying things so far I just hope the build-up is worth it.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by ~BC~

LoL, perhaps I should have specified what I meant by "stuff". Namely the science and ship protocols. Interesting the first time but once you know it, you know it.

*has lost count count on the number of time he's rewatched the rebooting scene of episode 2*

I love watching stuff reboot,never gets old.

And countdowns,I love countdowns,gets me as excited as fight scenes

[Om Nerabdator]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

...Maybe we should have one of the mods put a note in huge bold letters that shows up at the top of every page in the thread, saying "YES THIS SERIES IS 26 EPISODES, STOP ASKING!"

i cant help it i always forget to check when i ask it lol and its a pain going back to look for my old post >_>

[Slick_rick]

I really enjoyed this episode. It did a good job of blending current military story with a past pirate story and a future space story. A lot of the technical jargon was currently relatable concepts with a sci-fi and fantasy feel to it. The mix felt pretty unique and appealing.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I'm enjoying the geeky, 90's style sci-fi buildup of the show as well. Clearly it takes that aspect seriously and a lot of care goes into the way it's presented.

But I keep seeing reference to people complaining about the slow pace, and I think that really misses the point of what most people are having problems with - at least it does for me. The main issue isn't the fact that there's no action - it's that the show is basically an emotional flatline. There's no highs and lows, no anger, hell, barely any petulance. Everyone has a smile on their face and I can't offhand think of an instance where a character raised their voice. You can't have excitement if there's no sense of danger, and you can't have character development if there's no emotional volatility. Four episodes with no action is fine - but four episodes with no emotion (after the nicely-done scenes between Marika and Ririka in the premiere) seems a bit much to me.

I don't really understand what you mean here. Excitement doesn't need a sense of danger. Excitement usually boils down to having something you find interesting or compelling happen (that of course is fairly subjective in itself). Though I would still say we do have some sense of danger coming up with the impending attack. I think what you truly mean is that their is no sense that in the coming attack the characters will die horrific deaths, get raped, or endure someone other form of suffering. I'll agree with you on that. I don't really see this as that kind of show. I see this as an adventure story which is how I think the character look at it. This is why they have smiles on their faces. They, like me, anticipate some fun events without the bleak perspectives many animes/stories like to incorporate. They are not Gundam pilots obsessing about their own mortality or the moral implications of their actions.

Also I don't even know if we have the same definition of character development with your statement on it. I see character development as the change in a character emotional state, opinions/point of view, or their relationship with others whether considered an improvement, regression, or complete breakdown of them. This has no direct relationship between it and drama, which is what emotional volatility is.

Just because Marika and Chiaki didn't scream at each other or get into a fist fight doesn't mean their relationship hasn't developed over these episodes. They haven't been much drama in their relationship but they have grown closer, more on the working side so far but they also closer to friends that before. I have no idea how much closer they will get or if their relationship will eventually disintegrate but so far it has developed from the starting point.

I will say drama is often used to highlight major character development moments but some of the most relevant character development just happens as character spend time together. It's the most realistic approach as all people naturally change over time when interacting with each other. You shouldn't need drama to make those change understandable.

[sa547]

This episode now makes me remember about Master and Commander, as that movie had the two protags and crew trying to chase down a seemingly powerful French privateer from the Atlantic all the way to the middle of the Pacific Ocean, but to get there they had a lot of stuff in their hands to deal with.

Again, the pacing's all right. You have to be in the shoes of the girls to feel their anticipation of the impending skirmish.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

I don't really understand what you mean here. Excitement doesn't need a sense of danger. Excitement usually boils down to having something you find interesting or compelling happen (that of course is fairly subjective in itself). Though I would still say we do have some sense of danger coming up with the impending attack. I think what you truly mean is that their is no sense that in the coming attack the characters will die horrific deaths, get raped, or endure someone other form of suffering. I'll agree with you on that. I don't really see this as that kind of show. I see this as an adventure story which is how I think the character look at it. This is why they have smiles on their faces. They, like me, anticipate some fun events without the bleak perspectives many animes/stories like to incorporate. They are not Gundam pilots obsessing about their own mortality or the moral implications of their actions.

Please don't attempt to put words in my mouth, because you're not even in the ballpark here.

When you have characters behaving exactly the same in every situation, without even a break in facial expression, there's no sense of consequence for anything that happens. There's no sense that the characters relationships have changed at all, because they haven't changed at all. I don't care about action - I'd be very happy to watch a slice-of-life about space pirates. But a good slice-of-life needs character dynamics to be really engaging. It needs to portray how the characters feel, both in general and about each other. And those things need to evolve in reaction to the events around them. I'm just not seeing any of that whatsoever here, at least not yet.

As I said, the major hangup that's preventing me from going from "like" to "love" with this show is that it's an emotional flatline. No matter what happens, nothing with the characters ever changes. Rather than slice-of-life, right now it's closer to a documentary. Sooner or later that's going to change - I mean, you'd think it has to - but there's a limit to how long characters can be two-dimensional before any development they do get seems artificial. We're not at that point yet, but it's not all that far off.

Originally Posted by sa547

This episode now makes me remember about Master and Commander, as that movie had the two protags and crew trying to chase down a seemingly powerful French privateer from the Atlantic all the way to the middle of the Pacific Ocean, but to get there they had a lot of stuff in their hands to deal with.

Again, the pacing's all right. You have to be in the shoes of the girls to feel their anticipation of the impending skirmish.

I'm quite familiar with Master and Commander, both the movie and the novels (the entire series which it's from, in fact). While M & C was more thoughtful and "slice of life" than your average action film (one of the reasons it bombed despite being a rather good adaptation) there was never a doubt from the beginning that these people were facing death at every moment. There was also a lot of quietly intense character drama right from the beginning, especially between Aubrey and Maturin. That's an unfairly high standard for Mouretsu Pirates, but I can't honestly say I've seen even a mere shadow of those elements here - I think they could hardly be more different in emotional tone. If you feel differently, great - but I'm just not getting anything from these characters yet. They're flat. There was a pretty strong connection between Marika and Ririka for a few moments of the premiere, but that's it.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Please don't attempt to put words in my mouth, because you're not even in the ballpark here.

Like I said I didn't really understand what you meant so I think that should clue you into the fact that I was giving my interpretation of what I believed you meant. If I am wrong you're always welcome to clarify, without the semantics.

When you have characters behaving exactly the same in every situation, without even a break in facial expression, there's no sense of consequence for anything that happens. There's no sense that the characters relationships have changed at all, because they haven't changed at all. I don't care about action - I'd be very happy to watch a slice-of-life about space pirates. But a good slice-of-life needs character dynamics to be really engaging. It needs to portray how the characters feel, both in general and about each other. And those things need to evolve in reaction to the events around them. I'm just not seeing any of that whatsoever here, at least not yet..

You make quite a few broad claims here without providing any evidence which I quite disagree with. I could explain why I feel they have changed or their is consequences, etc. but why should I? You should learn to back your claims with evidence without resorting to blanket statements.

As I said, the major hangup that's preventing me from going from "like" to "love" with this show is that it's an emotional flatline. No matter what happens, nothing with the characters ever changes. Rather than slice-of-life, right now it's closer to a documentary. Sooner or later that's going to change - I mean, you'd think it has to - but there's a limit to how long characters can be two-dimensional before any development they do get seems artificial. We're not at that point yet, but it's not all that far off.

You got to elaborate on some of these statements you make before I can take you argument seriously.

[Guardian Enzo]

How can I elaborate on "emotional flatline"? I'm saying there's a lack of change and development on the part of the characters - the example is pretty much the entirety of the first four episodes of the series. You're basically asking me to prove there's no white elephant in the room next to you. I don't see one and neither do you, but that's the best I can do - if there's an invisible elephant in there, I can't prove it doesn't exist.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

How can I elaborate on "emotional flatline"? I'm saying there's a lack of change and development on the part of the characters - the example is pretty much the entirety of the first four episodes of the series. You're basically asking me to prove there's no white elephant in the room next to you. I don't see one and neither do you, but that's the best I can do - if there's an invisible elephant in there, I can't prove it doesn't exist.

Well there are a lot of other claims you made but since you wanted to highlight this one lets go with it.

Your overall argument is that the show is an emotional flatline, correct? Now their are reasons below such a statement that lead you to that assessment, correct? One of them I assume would be that "No matter what happens, nothing with the characters ever changes". Is that correct? Now you can elaborate on this as this isn't evidence but just another statement. Give examples from the show how nothing with the characters ever changes. Don't assume this statement is somehow a given cause its not. Also take more time thinking about if you can other reasoning to fit your statement. Whether that reasoning is good or not, we'll just have to see won't we?

This is how you form an solid argument.

If you honestly believe a statement can't be defended with reasoning, don't say it. The only way I would be asking you to prove an invisible elephant is because you're claiming that an invisible elephant actually exists. The burden of proof is on you.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

How can I elaborate on "emotional flatline"? I'm saying there's a lack of change and development on the part of the characters - the example is pretty much the entirety of the first four episodes of the series. You're basically asking me to prove there's no white elephant in the room next to you. I don't see one and neither do you, but that's the best I can do - if there's an invisible elephant in there, I can't prove it doesn't exist.

I think that the "emotional flatline" is here because they exist as a team. The yacht club members are team players so they are not going to be having any real arguements. The real strategy discourse is coming from MC to VP and P and Marika to Chiaki. Every one has their background issues so Marika's little issue is prob not as "major" as the other girls' issues. Those girls are being portrayed as making mature, well thought out decisions which is a rarity in anime.

I can see why this made the top of the ANN list. I still like Another better though.

[Guardian Enzo]

What "other claims" are there that you'd like me to back up? I think the essence of my post was pretty straightforward.

In essence, you're asking me to prove the absence of something - the evidence of absence is the absence of evidence. If you ask me to prove dragons don't exist, my argument is that in a lifetime I've never seen a dragon. If you ask me to prove Mouretsu Pirates lacks emotional depth and variation, my argument is that in four episodes I've never seen emotional depth and variation. But if you believe those things exist, I can never prove to your satisfaction that they don't. It's a logical impossibility.

If you asked me to prove to you that character development did exist in this series, I could try and give you specific examples of where I've seen it (so far at least, you can't). Since I really don't think it does, all I can do is repeat the initial statement. I don't see character development at 11:05 of episode 2. I don't see it at 3:47 of episode 3. I don't see it at 19:44 of episode 4. I don't know how I can be any more specific than that. I simply think the characters behave exactly the same now as they did when we met them, with the possible exception of Kane, in some very minor ways.

I would like to see some evidence that Marika is worried about the seriousness of the decision she's about to make.

I would like to see some concern on the part of Kane or any of the girls that they might be in serious danger on their current mission.

I would like to see some variation in the reaction of the classmates to the news that Marika is not just their friend, but also potentially a pirate captain.

I would like to see some evolution in the relationship between Marika and Chiaki. I see no evidence of any growth there at all, since all we really know about Chiaki is that she likes parfaits.

I'd like to see someone on the show act scared or angry about something, sometime.

I'd like so see some character on the show change in some fundamental way. The only thing that changes is their knowledge - they learn things - about space walks, and electronic piracy, and solar panels, and that's interesting. But there's no sign that this knowledge impacts that in any way, apart from the fact that they know possess a piece of knowledge they didn't possess before.

I'd like to see some specific evidence that the characters on the show are reflecting on the meanings or implications of events and decisions, rather than the mechanics of them.


All of that is just a fancy and long-winded way of repeating my initial point. None of it is proof that these things are absent - just that I don't see them. I'd love to see some examples that contradict the notion, but even if you can't show me a dragon, I still can't prove a dragon doesn't exist.

[Kyuu]

I'd attack a ship full of girls from behind too. If you know what I mean...

Anyways, with this 4th eps... you get a starting taste of the Pres and VP. Who they are and what they're capable of. Of course, the central character Marika - we get to see her potential capabilities.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I'd love to see some examples that contradict the notion, but even if you can't show me a dragon, I still can't prove a dragon doesn't exist.

Patience ma boi.

[orion]

^^Maybe what you're looking for won't be shown in this title. In really good professional "team" atmosphere, that sort of thing just doesn't happen. It's a rarity to have an arguement due to the fact that an established pecking order exists and everyone is confident that the decison makers are doing their job. Like in an airplane. You're not going to see the pilot, co-pilot and the stewards having heated discussions or an arguement. It would decrease morale and prevent the optimal functioning of the airplane. Same principle in play here.

As for why the other girls aren't that flustered, well pirates are in the history books, not active and they have their own background "issues" so Marika's stuff may not be that frightening to them because they went thru worse. So no worries on their end either. *Episode 4 stated that that these girls have their own "issues" twice. and showed us that they are not "normal" school girls.*

As for the 2 pirates (privateers) on board, they prob know it's not that dangerous so why worry. Their ship will prob back them up in a pinch.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

What "other claims" are there that you'd like me to back up? I think the essence of my post was pretty straightforward.

You claim that characters relationships have changed at all, you claim that
you can't have excitement if there's no sense of danger, and you can't have character development if there's no emotional volatility (which is where I inititally attacked your argument on). I assume your overall claim is the emotional flatline but you need to understand these are claims also needing support. You've got the prove the truth of these statements or if they are valid in relationship to your overall argument.

In essence, you're asking me to prove the absence of something - the evidence of absence is the absence of evidence. If you ask me to prove dragons don't exist, my argument is that in a lifetime I've never seen a dragon. If you ask me to prove Mouretsu Pirates lacks emotional depth and variation, my argument is that in four episodes I've never seen emotional depth and variation. But if you believe those things exist, I can never prove to your satisfaction that they don't. It's a logical impossibility.

It's not really about prove to my satisfaction, that's irrelevant. Your claiming the absence of something in the show but so do have evidence. The show is the evidence towards proving that. You have to show how and why you believe the show lacks it by presenting scenes in the show that support it. The show should be more than enough evidence to prove anything that is worth proving.

Taking the dragon example for instance, you can claim that their aren't no dragons in the world because you haven't encounter them but that's a weak argument. Dragons could be one of the many places you've never been and its not like you've actually tried to look for them in the world. Until you travel around the world you can only claim that you personally haven't seen a dragon. Once you've traveled around the world looking you can make a much better case to say that their aren't dragons in the world. You've actually been to many different countries and investigated many possibilities. Now, when that person asks you for evidence you can tell them of all the places you visited and how you never seen a dragon. They might not believe you but you've have solid evidence and can tell them to go look for themselves if they want to. Now this is of course discounting the normal, no creditable claims for dragons exist so their are no dragons but this argument isn't really relevant cause you don't have that kind of abundant testimonial evidence to latch on to.

If you asked me to prove to you that character development did exist in this series, I could try and give you specific examples of where I've seen it (so far at least, you can't). Since I really don't think it does, all I can do is repeat the initial statement. I don't see character development at 11:05 of episode 2. I don't see it at 3:47 of episode 3. I don't see it at 19:44 of episode 4. I don't know how I can be any more specific than that. I simply think the characters behave exactly the same now as they did when we met them, with the possible exception of Kane, in some very minor ways.

I could point you to my last post on where I elaborate a bit on my opinions how the character development was being handled on 2012-01-22, 16:25. Also I the fact that Marika calls Chiaki will the -chan suffix is an important change to how their relationship is to be viewed. It pretty interesting that at first it was Chiaki dragging Marika around in the first episode now it Marika is basically the leader. The fact Marika is now gaining experience planning out missions, spending her hours working on it, then forwarding it up her chain of command and working together with the rest of the crew is important. Being in space and on this adventure is making her love space even more which I think is apparent due to her own comments on space being exciting and the fact your right she does smile a lot and so does the rest of the crew. That tell you something about their experience so far in space? It'll all lead up to her eventual choice of being a captain and established relationship with her crew member that will be important to future plotlines.

Now you could have attempted to prove you point by highlighting parts of the relationships that haven't changed but you decide to resort to semantics instead.

I would like to see some evidence that Marika is worried about the seriousness of the decision she's about to make.

She's not. So what?

I would like to see some concern on the part of Kane or any of the girls that they might be in serious danger on their current mission.

He's not concern. So what?

I would like to see some variation in the reaction of the classmates to the news that Marika is not just their friend, but also potentially a pirate captain.

They're all cool with it. So what?

I would like to see some evolution in the relationship between Marika and Chiaki. I see no evidence of any growth there at all, since all we really know about Chiaki is that she likes parfaits.

They work well together which is the part they've stressed the most. Chiaki is also observing her from some reason but I think she getting attached but that probably just my hopes. Chiaki is a mystery character but her relationship with Marika hasn't been stagnant is just is slowly paced.

I'd like to see someone on the show act scared or angry about something, sometime.

Why? This is exactly where I attacked your argument before. Being scared or angry isn't a necessary to having excitement or character development. You relate the two and assume without them the show lacks something when it not trying to be that kind of show.

The show lacks action, yes. The show lacks angry or scared people, yes. The show lacks people fighting or hating each other, yes. This doesn't means it is lacking in excitement or character development. I attacked this premise already which you claimed I completely missed the point on and it seems that I did not.

I'd like so see some character on the show change in some fundamental way. The only thing that changes is their knowledge - they learn things - about space walks, and electronic piracy, and solar panels, and that's interesting. But there's no sign that this knowledge impacts that in any way, apart from the fact that they know possess a piece of knowledge they didn't possess before.

What does them getting angry, arguing, or getting attacked mean that they've changed in some fundamental way? It doesn't. You just looking for conflict which the show isn't giving you that's different that character development. Discounting knowledge and experience as character development is a mistake in this show cause so far that how that character have development though it and each other.

I'd like to see some specific evidence that the characters on the show are reflecting on the meanings or implications of events and decisions, rather than the mechanics of them.

Probably not going to happen to a large extent though I expect it later to some extent.

All of that is just a fancy and long-winded way of repeating my initial point. None of it is proof that these things are absent - just that I don't see them. I'd love to see some examples that contradict the notion, but even if you can't show me a dragon, I still can't prove a dragon doesn't exist.

All of that is you hopes for what you feel that show should be like. I still need to understand what you problem with the show is. If you aren't willing to explore the world to prove dragons don't exists then don't claim dragons don't exist.

In fact, your actually not claiming no dragons exists but no "X" exists. You want us to use the assumption with the first claim that dragons existing is an absurdity because of what we already know about that claim but the variable you employ is not yet proven to be an absurdity. The evidence is in the show, enlighten me. Less semantics and more substance.