2008-03-04, 14:42 | Link #62 | |
Osana-Najimi Shipper
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
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Otoboku = 2006, not 2007 (or maybe you're talking about tsunderella? But that doesn't count, considering it's not a standalone OVA, since it's basically an 'extra' that was released on the last volume with the final episodes. Unless we start counting extras as basically a double-entry now?)
Clannad movie = already was in the original list I'm confused about Polyphonca though, as the first light novel predate the game by a good three months. I still don't know if the original is the game or the light novel, or if it based on the game, why did the light novel came out before. As for hentai, I didn't even consider that. I mean, who in their right mind goes to pr0n for a story, based on a game or not? I'm surprised people even consider those a 'show' when all its good for (and maybe not even then) is for fapping lol. XD But I don't know why I keep missing the obvious ones. I mean, first To Heart 2, then Higurashi Kai? Out of all things, when it's part of my sig? Rotflmao. Still, I think comparing the amount of mecha shows vs other genres is still a valid topic, considering one can't get more objective than hard numbers. While I really could care less what the actual ratio is to each of the genre, the main purpose as to why I started the list was to show that the mecha as a genre isn't near as rare people think it to be, that is is still one of the more popular genres around. EDIT @Darklord Quote:
And I don't see the reason why I can't group mecha and shounen just because they have two people fighting each other as its focus, when the reason why you group harem and visual novel adaptations together is just because the guy has interacted with many girls and has to choose a girl in the end. Both is as general a condition one can get. By THAT definition my friend, you have included the vast majority (if not all) of the titles that deal with shounen romance. Oh wait... I think you already did list them. I mean, my list of visual novel adaptation isn't nowhere the same as my list of harem. Harem shows, going by the simplest definition, is when more than two girls are romantically interested in one guy. Going by that, I would easily slash at least 10 shows (out of at least 16) of my VN adaptation list, as the most these shows have are love triangles.
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Last edited by DragoonKain3; 2008-03-04 at 15:22. |
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2008-03-04, 14:57 | Link #63 |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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But apparently people panics when their genres get a 1:2 ratio against another genre. I dunno about you, but if shows of a certain genre or subgenre are still churned out each season, I see no reason to cry for genre extinction be it 1:2, 1:3 or 1:5.
Otoh, as a sci-fi fan, I'll love to see more sci-fi that is not of the Space Opera/Mecha/Cyberpunk triumvirat. I want to see more like "Noein", or adaptations of written works like "Helliconia", "Hothouse", "The Dispossessed" or "The Man in the High Castle". Sci-Fi is diverse and large, why can't why producers tread out of the three subgenres more? |
2008-03-04, 15:28 | Link #64 |
Osana-Najimi Shipper
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
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That's what I'm saying Sheba, when I mentioned that Sunrise can do more than mecha.
But really though, it's just that mecha does sell in Japan I think. As I brought up the point before, why do a sci-fi show when you can put mecha in there without changing the plot whatsoever, and still get a boost in revenue due to mecha fanboy and figure sales?
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2008-03-04, 16:09 | Link #65 |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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That's why I pray that works like "Dune", "Man in the High Castle", "Helliconia" or even "Nightfall" never get into anime producers' hands.
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2008-03-04, 16:38 | Link #66 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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Dune with mecha...that actually sounds kind of cool. Not necessarily Paul in a mecha (or even the Fremen), but the Emperor, Harkonnen, or maybe Gurney could be mecha pilots. .
Mecha are, generally, just tools/weapons for war etc. in anime, so I have never really cared if they were present or not. They don't really get in the way of a dramatic series (though they can in an action series - too many action sequences without substance = boring ), and in fact there use a tools of war can be quite effective at creating mood and tension. There is nothing wrong with mecha, rather it is overuse or inapproriate use that is the problem (For instance, why did Magic Knight Rayearth need Giant Mecha, that was silly and over-blown.) |
2008-03-04, 17:04 | Link #67 | |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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Mecha in duneverse will not work ever. Especially when humankind has banned human-like machines, be it in body (form) or mind (AI) since the butlerian jihad. Moreover, it will clash with the most powerful creatures of Arrakis, the sandworms. Putting mechas in dune universe will be basically equivalent to throwing feces in frank Herbert's grave while collectively slapping the fans of Dune in the face. Much more than the sonic weapons featured in Lynch's Dune. |
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2008-03-04, 17:57 | Link #68 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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LOL, I was joking...but even if I wasn't, mecha could still work in the Dune universe, quite well in fact. I purposely limited the mecha to the "evil" characters, because I intentionally seperated the more 'natural' Fremen from the more machine based society that Duke Harkonnen (and others) ran. What better way to seperate the two extremes than the presence of cold unfeeling tools of desctruction like mecha. Additionally the planet Ix could supposedly have machines of this nature, hell they have some damn advanced machinery (such as their room that hides people within from prescience), so the possibility of mecha existing can be readily explained. (btw, the O.C. Bible stated that you can not have a machine based in design on a human mind, as far as I can recall (and it has been many years since I read the original series, so please correct me if I am wrong), there is nothing against having a machine based on a human body or that supports the human body ~ and, if abominations like gholas can exist why not machines with somewhat human shapes.) Additionaly, the mech could look more like a Votoms or Patlabor style mecha or even better the mecha used by Ripely in Aliens. You are imagining a Gundam Seed/Destiny/Wing style mecha (which is almost completely controlled by computers) when in fact there are multiple different formats and approaches to Mecha designs. Hell there have been mechas in anime that are soley controlled by voice recognition or are connected to a persons nerveous system effectively making the machine nothing more than an extension of the human body. Infact this could elevate the role of Mentat as the brain in a machine. This could be a very interesting approach to the series. I am a fan of the Dune series, hell I have even read the non Frank Herebert books, but you are talking about fanatacism rather than simple fan-support. The movie Dune was not bad because it tampered with Herbert's work, but rather it was bad because Lynch had no idea what he was doing with the show and he was over-controlled by his producers etc. into creating a sub-standard (for him) work. There is nothing wrong with adding mecha to the Dune series, it is just that there is no real point for them to be added, so additional storylines would have to be created to define their existance. Additionally, there is nothing wrong with re-imagining the series. The question that should be asked, in regards to using mecha, is if you can improve anything in your re-imagination by adding Mecha (ala Infinte Ryvius), or if it will just get in the way. Last edited by james0246; 2008-03-04 at 18:08. |
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2008-03-04, 18:11 | Link #69 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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Also, for what am I using a scapegoat? From my own anecdotal knowledge of anime that I've viewed, this is what I have personally come to a conclusion with. Bias by definition is "Prejudice against or in favor of one thing, group or person compared with another, usually in a way to be considered unfair." This is not bias. I have seen MANY mecha, probably more than the other genres/subgenres out there, which is quite sickening considering the fact that most of my favorite animes have nothing to do with mecha. I personally would have to question the very idea of a forum thread questioning people's opinions, and then being against it and labeling certain opinions as biased. Honestly, prove otherwise to me that the mecha genre is not as overexploited as other genres, that in itself is an opinion. You have no factual evidence other than your own anime viewing, as do I. I stated what I thought, and that is all. So please go and prove that other ideas in this thread are anymore valid than mine, I would love to see it.
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2008-03-04, 22:51 | Link #70 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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ok, so My thoughts on mecha...lol
There was a time when you could not pay me to watch mecha. of any sort. But then someone told me about Fullmetal Panic. I knew it was mecha, but I decided I would give it a try since it sounded funny. And sure enough, it was awesome! So my thoughts are as follows: It all depends on who wrote it. If written good, it will be a good show.
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2008-03-04, 23:04 | Link #71 |
Banned
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I could total picture a pilot quoting the Mantra of Fear when going into battle. Heck Shinji Ikari kind of rips it off to in his own lame way.
@Reckoner: Well hey, I find your claim that people looking at a mecha series for any reason other than mecha is an expression of naivety a little condescending too, but hey I can turn the other cheek. Also I never felt your opinion was biased, that word never came up. Your basically chasing a red herring as I already thanked you for the opinion and then went on to express my disagreement with it to further my thoughts. Just relax and take the thread for the open forum it now is. That's what I've done. Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2008-03-04 at 23:18. |
2008-03-04, 23:30 | Link #72 | |
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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It's probably a lot easier to animate one AWESOME POWAA'D ROBOT than entire squads of men and modern equipment when they do those action scene things. And the teenager hero (a requisite in, oh, every damn shonen show since forever) can't do much armed with traditional weapons unless he is a Sergeant who used to be called Kamshin.
I don't see why so many people keep complaining about the genre. It's not like every mecha show is the same, and those that are similar are either legitimately influenced (the Evangelion tradition of mecha is a particularly contentious one) or copycats, in which case, robots or no, they probably suck. Quote:
That's it, your life is forfeit. I'll make sure Duncan Idaho will hear of this. But yeah, I *could* imagine some group like Ix having some sort of mecha-ish weapons in their arsenal already, since they do like pushing the limits a lot -- mecha doesn't mean sentient robots after all. Code Geass sure lacks one, for an example. In fact, the game studio Westwood (RIP), when it was still around making a few Dune games here and there, already put it some mecha-ish weapons for the Houses already, so it's not like it'll be an exclusively Japanese crime. If a Dune anime is ever made though, it better be a top-notch effort, unlimited funding, and infinite awesomeness beyond even the God-Emperor's prescience. And it better keep the Atreides (and Arrakis, because of the sandworms) clean of mecha weapons. I want awesome airforce action dammit! |
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2008-03-05, 00:01 | Link #73 | |||||
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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Not to mention that it may draw a sandworm toward it. I like my Sardaukar as freaking scary fanatical super-soldiers not trained mech pilots. I like my harkonnen as brutal and oppressive army as opposed to Duke Leto's. And mentats are fine in their roles of human computers and advisors of the noble class. Quote:
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As for David Lynch, I know very well the obstacles he has to overcome; but every directors has done bad movies at least one time no matter what was the reason, Dune just happened to be one bad movie by Lynch. You know the impression that a movie left when your more casual friends only remember Dune as "The movie where Sting dies." I can forgive, but I cannot forget. Quote:
Adding more plot threads to explain mechs would turn it "Gonzo-deviating-from-the-source" bad (Hellsing comes in mind as show that deviates from the original material, badly. The other example being Ghibli's Earthsea, so bad I cried). Quote:
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2008-03-05, 00:21 | Link #74 | |||||
Buddhajew
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: San Diego
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As for more harem anime according to your second comment: Bleach, where he attends a class with apparently three times as many female students as male? Haruhi, where there are two lead male characters (actually three, because Minoru Shiraishi is always a lead) and probably 6+ female ones? Code Geass and Full Metal Panic! as mecha harems as they both feature characters who interact with several girls of similar ages? Quote:
Also, even with your inclusion of shonen harem "romance" anime and your inclusion of an extra winter season, the 20 harem/visual novel adaptations are far from the 30-35 "eroge adaptations" you said were released in a year + one season. Quote:
I wanted to comment further on his comment, but I guess I'll have to let yours be it, since I don't really want to bring up an old conversation. Quote:
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But the main reason I quoted your post is that you stated that: "Good" is an adjective, describing a noun, whereas "written" is the past tense of "to write", a verb. Therefore, you would need to use "well" instead of "good" to describe how or in what manner the verb was executed. Mmm.. my apologies for being a grammar Nazi. Had I known English was not your first language or if it was apparent, I wouldn't have pointed it out, but your English seems to be quite fluent at the very least, and your usage of "lol" probably indicates that you are from an English speaking country, I'll say the United States. EDIT: I also find it quite amusing that we are now discussing the Dune books and the differences between harem anime and eroge visual novel adapations in a mecha thread. |
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2008-03-05, 00:43 | Link #75 | |||
Hallowed Redeemer
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Stanford, CA
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Really
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The truth is, the shows I listed "can be passed" as harem, because they either feature three or more girls romantically interested in the main character or they feature a love triangle and many supporting female characters with varying degree of interest in the male character. Heck, I've even seen a guy's sisters being counted towards his harem in certain cases. It doesn't need to be a show like "SHUFFLE" where all the girls have a relatively equal chance at the beginning of the show. Shows like KGNE can also be considered harem, since: Spoiler:
You can group shounen and mecha and all shows that feature fighting, but you cannot use all of them to prove that the mecha genre is overexploited. On the other hand, I can certainly use shows based on visual novels that have harems in them to prove that harem shows are overexploited(whether they really are or not is a different story). Quote:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6Jaq...eature=related Anyways, none of those shows are on my "harems" list, so I don't know why you mention them. I don't want to bring back anything from the dust, but I'm just curious to know what conversation you are talking about
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Last edited by Darklord_bg; 2008-03-05 at 01:08. |
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2008-03-05, 01:30 | Link #76 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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The Dune universe is fine how it is, I completely agree. But, I am not a fan that would explicetely say that you can not re-imagine this favored book of mine. Dune could be cool with Mecha, I am not saying it should have mecha, and I agree it creates too much extra back stories, but it could work if we play around with the show some. And playing with the source material could make an interesting and provocative re-imagined story. Here are two good Mecha anime derived from classic books: Infinite Ryvius - Lord of the Flies Argento Soma - Frankenstein Both are very different from their source materials, but they are both very good becuase of it (Infinite Ryvius in particular). Both dealt with the same basic themes, and sometimes ideas and somewhat same settings, as the original classic novels. But, at the same time, with the introduction of the Giant Mecha, and the various other Sci-Fi changes, a new take on the story is created that lets a modern audience interpret and re-interpret some of the classic themes of the original works. In the end, I am not saying Dune would necessarily be good (and I would never say it could be better) with Mecha, but it could be interesting and cool (if done right). Here are two more Giant Mecha series that did not necessairly need a giant mecha but turned out good and interesting becuase of it: Vision of Escaflowne, and Aura Battler Dunbine |
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2008-03-05, 10:58 | Link #77 | |
Osana-Najimi Shipper
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
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I dunno, but having the Japanese re-imagine Dune, I can imagine that the golden path Leto II is following would turn him not into a sandworm, but into a big hulking piece of mecha. rotfl
More seriously now... really, it's all about the execution. But the same can be said out of any show, right? @darklord Spoiler for OT:
Now back to an ontopic discussion... Quote:
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Last edited by DragoonKain3; 2008-03-05 at 11:13. |
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2008-03-05, 20:56 | Link #78 | ||
Hallowed Redeemer
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Stanford, CA
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@ DragoonKain3:
I don't have the time or patience to respond to everything you said, and frankly, I think we have already strayed way off topic, so we should probably wrap it up. I'll just make a few points. 1) Since you brought up wikipedia, here's their definition of a harem show: Quote:
2) You seem to take everything anidb says at face value. I would much rather use my common sense and my impressions from other people's opinions to judge the nature of a show. Here are just a few examples of how anidb can be wrong: i) One of the shows I listed as harem and not on anidb's harem list is: Kono Aozora ni Yakusoku wo Anidb classifies it as comedy/romance(which is probably correct), but in the very description of the show, it says: Quote:
iii) Many of the shows I listed not classified as harem are classified as "love polygon" instead. Now, if a show has only one male character and one sidekick and plenty of females and is classified as "love polygon" then it definitely qualifies as harem too. Anyway, those were just examples to show that anidb is not always right about the genre. I'm not holding anything against them, I think they are doing a great job, but when it comes to genre classification, I don't think their lists should be used as an argument. 3) Concerning KGNE: Spoiler:
4) About grouping shounen and mecha together - the original topic which spurned this whole debate was a claim that the mecha genre was overexploited. If you feel like the shounen genre is overexploited, that's fine. You could probably even include mecha shows to further your case. I don't care. My point was the mecha genre by itself is certainly not overexploited compared to many other genres.
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2008-03-06, 01:47 | Link #79 | ||
Lets be reality
Join Date: May 2007
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2008-03-06, 02:18 | Link #80 | |
Banned
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