AnimeSuki Forums

Chupps · 2010-06-12, 20:04

It's just my point of view, along with my understanding of the series, that suicide is not a conclusion the strong willed rush to. Regardless of her troubles and Mao's manipulation, her judgment seemed to display a weakness of her character. When you say words like 'Ordinary', 'Average', 'Everyone'. I think that 'they' would cling to life through all it's trials and tribulations.

~~Arbitres~~ · 2010-06-12, 20:17

Than I completely agree. The strong don't rush to suicide. But there is a middle place between the weak and the strong. We are simply stating our views and trying to understand one another. Very nice to be civilized. I doubt I could change the view you have, so I'll simply respect it. Since I agree with the portion of it.

Chupps · 2010-06-12, 20:27

Civilized indeed. It goes without saying i'll respect yours. Being average Shirley would have probably fallen into the "middle place between the weak and strong". Not being weak she did not complete the act, and being not strong she didn't initially reject it but needed help to get out of it - Lelouch.

azul120 · 2010-06-13, 02:38

Shirley had basically been Mind Raped. She had been mentally violated in the worst way, after her father had been killed and she learned her big crush was the one responsible, and she had been pressured into turning him in, something she didn't agree to. Her life had started becoming one big Deus Angst Machina.

If you call her weak for crumbling apart, you might as well do the same for every broken rape victim in existence. And only a fool would do that, needless to say.

Chupps · 2010-06-13, 06:58

You've foolishly generalized " every broken rape victim in existence " who I'm sure didn't all commit suicide. I'm fairly certain the majority don't commit suicide.

Gordy Lechance · 2010-06-13, 10:59

Wanted to get this out of my system before getting TOO off topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arbitres

(You want to rag on someone? Do it to Charles. He wanted to make an instrumentality COVERED in blood. That is no instrumentality I'd want. Or peace for the that matter. Which is why I dislike ZR.)

Refreshing to FINALLY see somebody else agreeing with this.

The way Lerouch saved the world was not only cowardly and dishonorable in the short run, but also DEEPLY damaged the moral fiber of the world.

What sort of a martha-fudging example is he setting for the children of the next generation? That one is allowed to be as ruthless, cowardly and worst of all dishonorable as long as the final results are noble?

A true savior unselfishly bears the weight of the world's sadness on his shoulders and his own shoulders alone, and never sinks to the depths of the evil he fights by facing it with courage and HONOR, so NOBODY else but him alone will ever need to cry ever again. And Lerouch actually finds time to LAUGH at the destruction and misery he caused just so his baby sister can smile, that demon!!

Take notes from THIS man Lerouch. THIS is how

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqDoh...elated#t=6m40s

a world should be saved

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0MpG...elated#t=1m37s (Watch until 4:04. Pay special attention, "Baby-Lulu", to how similar you and your father's ideology are very similar to that of the villain in the flashback between 1:37 and 2:00)

NOT through your selfish, blood-drenched lies, thank you very much.

Better that a world is destroyed than have it be saved without honor.

Let's hope the protagonist of the next series (The Japanese Warrior in the upcoming sequel/sidequel) does a more heroic job than you did.

Having gotten that out of the system.

Back on topic.

Finally started the Shirley-chan and Nunnally-chan paper-crane themed artwork!! Should have the "Pencil Lines" layer completed by tomorrow night. Yay!!

Then comes the painful day long process of coloring, erasing, shading, lighting... oh fudge, the things I do for the love of cuddly and sweet fictional girls.

Xander · 2010-06-13, 17:46

To keep this as on-topic as possible...I'd say that Shirley herself would probably disagree with that description of Lelouch.

And rightfully so, as a matter of fact, though I won't elaborate on Lelouch here. Suffice to say that he is a flawed character, by all means, but his mindset is different from that of Charles in a few important yet often overlooked respects.

Now, I don't think Shirley would have wanted Lelouch to do what he did, to say the least, but I feel she would be far more understanding, to a greater or lesser extent, particularly if she had survived the events of R2 episode 13.

Not just because the poor girl was in love with him, I must stress, but also because Shirley managed to gain a certain amount of insight into the nature of Lelouch's personality, even though she failed to gain access to many of the details of his other life and the dangers surrounding it. Alas, it's interesting to think about what could have been but there's little that can be done.

azul120 · 2010-06-13, 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chupps

You've foolishly generalized " every broken rape victim in existence " who I'm sure didn't all commit suicide. I'm fairly certain the majority don't commit suicide.

Not all of them, but many are pushed near or past that breaking point. And really, they can't be faulted for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordy Lechance

Wanted to get this out of my system before getting TOO off topic.

Refreshing to FINALLY see somebody else agreeing with this.

The way Lerouch saved the world was not only cowardly and dishonorable in the short run, but also DEEPLY damaged the moral fiber of the world.

What sort of a martha-fudging example is he setting for the children of the next generation? That one is allowed to be as ruthless, cowardly and worst of all dishonorable as long as the final results are noble?

A true savior unselfishly bears the weight of the world's sadness on his shoulders and his own shoulders alone, and never sinks to the depths of the evil he fights by facing it with courage and HONOR, so NOBODY else but him alone will ever need to cry ever again. And Lerouch actually finds time to LAUGH at the destruction and misery he caused just so his baby sister can smile, that demon!!

Take notes from THIS man Lerouch. THIS is how

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqDoh...elated#t=6m40s

a world should be saved

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0MpG...elated#t=1m37s (Watch until 4:04. Pay special attention, "Baby-Lulu", to how similar you and your father's ideology are very similar to that of the villain in the flashback between 1:37 and 2:00)

NOT through your selfish, blood-drenched lies, thank you very much.

Better that a world is destroyed than have it be saved without honor.

Let's hope the protagonist of the next series (The Japanese Warrior in the upcoming sequel/sidequel) does a more heroic job than you did.

Having gotten that out of the system.

Back on topic.

Finally started the Shirley-chan and Nunnally-chan paper-crane themed artwork!! Should have the "Pencil Lines" layer completed by tomorrow night. Yay!!

Then comes the painful day long process of coloring, erasing, shading, lighting... oh fudge, the things I do for the love of cuddly and sweet fictional girls.

Lelouch did Zero Requiem mainly because he had been pushed beyond the Despair Event Horizon, following Nunnally's apparent demise, and the Black Knights betraying him. I blame Mr. Swiss Messenger himself, Ohgi, and his groupie, Vile-etta Snu-snu.

Escapaide · 2010-06-24, 02:10

Let me start off by saying that I am a huge Shirley x Lelouch fan and have even made AMVs on the subject.

Now, I have a question for all of you experts. Was Shirley's portion of the R2 Complete Guidebook ever translated into English, and if it was, can I please get a link?

I know that the guidebook said that C.C. never yearned to be a lover to Lelouch and he didn't see her romantically, and that Kallen (although a very close allie and valuable team member) was ultimately unable to capture Lelouch's romantic feelings.

So now I am curious what the book says about Shirley.

Nobodyman9 · 2010-06-24, 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Escapaide

Let me start off by saying that I am a huge Shirley x Lelouch fan and have even made AMVs on the subject.

Now, I have a question for all of you experts. Was Shirley's portion of the R2 Complete Guidebook ever translated into English, and if it was, can I please get a link?

I know that the guidebook said that C.C. never yearned to be a lover to Lelouch and he didn't see her romantically, and that Kallen (although a very close allie and valuable team member) was ultimately unable to capture Lelouch's romantic feelings.

So now I am curious what the book says about Shirley.

I personally don't have a link to a translation, but I'm pretty sure they never said anything about Shirley capturing Lelouch's romantic interest. I believe it was always meant for Lelouch's romantic feelings (if any) for Shirley and Kallen to be ambiguous.

I'd love to see the AMVs you made though.

Escapaide · 2010-06-24, 14:30

I agree with you there. I love C.C. as a character and partner for Lelouch, but as a romantic interest, not so much. I have nothing against shippers though as long as they don't mind my Shirlulu opinions. xD

I love Kallen too, but I feel like Lelouch was already too set on his business and much too traumatized for those kinds of emotions at the point when she kissed him to consider anything more.

Well my account is allipwns on youtube. ^^ One video is specifically Shirlulu, and the other two have snippets of Shirlulu moments.
I do plan on making more, too.
/shameless self advertisement xD;

Escapaide · 2010-06-24, 16:04

Ooh, a music video thread. I'll go check that out. I'm very new to this site. ^_^

And critique would be great. I'm well aware that I'm no professional, it's just a side hobby. But I'm grateful just for anyone who wants to watch them.

Lolipopo · 2010-06-28, 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Escapaide

Let me start off by saying that I am a huge Shirley x Lelouch fan and have even made AMVs on the subject.

Now, I have a question for all of you experts. Was Shirley's portion of the R2 Complete Guidebook ever translated into English, and if it was, can I please get a link?

I know that the guidebook said that C.C. never yearned to be a lover to Lelouch and he didn't see her romantically, and that Kallen (although a very close allie and valuable team member) was ultimately unable to capture Lelouch's romantic feelings.

So now I am curious what the book says about Shirley.

Urgh. What you said about Kallen is wrong, this thing was never said.
Kallen's answer about Lelouch is "kinda" while C.C. is "no".
About Shirley, they didn't even bother. You have a "what if" with the reincarnation thing but that's about it.

In the same time, Shirley was a secondary character and she died early, with the huge cast we can hardly blame authors for not working hard on everything Shirley related.
In the end, more attention has gone to Rolo, ironically.

Escapaide · 2010-06-29, 20:18

I apologize if I offended you-- I can only go with what I have read in fan translations and the one I read just so happened to discount Kallen's romance with Lelouch. I'm not a translator.

I think that Shirley had to be a minor character. I ultimately think that the writers never intended to have a main love interest for Lelouch work out for him in the end because that was not included in his major goals / plot of the show. So it's suitable for someone who likes Shirley to believe that his love interest would, by assumption, be a minor character who

Spoiler:

I do not discount any opposing ships at all. I love Kallen. I can only go with what I have heard when it comes to translations.

Kittenlady · 2010-06-29, 23:12

That's why I think Shirley is the closest thing there was to a proper love interest. This isn't supposed to be a romantic show, so yeah, I thought the romantic aspects dying with Shirley was a rather apt symbolism.

The translation I read for that thingy also said Lelouch didn't have romantic feelings for anyone in particular, but I think it's better if fans interpret things their own way. They should leave things like that completely ambiguous, so I think they really shot themselves in the foot with the C.C. - Lelouch revelation. Regardless of what they intended, they fucked up if they wanted their relationship irrevocably platonic. I prefer them platonic, actually, but it could easily be interpreted as romantic. /lol off-topic

People should just think what they like. And preferably not bash each other in the process, but hahaha like that's going to happen.

ginran · 2010-07-09, 13:54

It's a day late, but Happy belated birthday to Shirley!

Nobodyman9 · 2010-07-09, 18:51

Ooh, I had completely forgotten about Shirley's birthday. Yes, happy belated birthday Shirley!

bladeofdarkness · 2010-07-09, 19:08

happy B-day Shirley

Lost Cause · 2010-07-09, 20:32

Happy Birthday Shirley!!

Knightrunner · 2010-07-10, 00:51

Happy Birthday Shirley

2010-06-29, 20:18	Link #1714
Escapaide Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Seattle Age: 32	I apologize if I offended you-- I can only go with what I have read in fan translations and the one I read just so happened to discount Kallen's romance with Lelouch. I'm not a translator. I think that Shirley had to be a minor character. I ultimately think that the writers never intended to have a main love interest for Lelouch work out for him in the end because that was not included in his major goals / plot of the show. So it's suitable for someone who likes Shirley to believe that his love interest would, by assumption, be a minor character who Spoiler: gets killed off to symbolize the death of Lelouch's normal teenage life. I do not discount any opposing ships at all. I love Kallen. I can only go with what I have heard when it comes to translations.

2010-07-09, 13:54	Link #1716
ginran ~Smile~ Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: U.S.A	It's a day late, but Happy belated birthday to Shirley! __________________ Thanks to Yuka-Chan for the sig!

2010-07-09, 19:08	Link #1718
bladeofdarkness Um-Shmum Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts Age: 39	happy B-day Shirley __________________

2010-07-09, 20:32	Link #1719
Lost Cause Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Virginia Age: 46	Happy Birthday Shirley!! __________________ Ride, Boldly Ride!

2010-07-10, 00:51	Link #1720
Knightrunner Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: United States--- California	Happy Birthday Shirley __________________ Credit to grylsygaeger

2010-06-12, 20:04	Link #1701
Chupps Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: UK Age: 32	It's just my point of view, along with my understanding of the series, that suicide is not a conclusion the strong willed rush to. Regardless of her troubles and Mao's manipulation, her judgment seemed to display a weakness of her character. When you say words like 'Ordinary', 'Average', 'Everyone'. I think that 'they' would cling to life through all it's trials and tribulations.

2010-06-12, 20:17	Link #1702
~~Arbitres~~ Disabled By Request Join Date: Jan 2010	Than I completely agree. The strong don't rush to suicide. But there is a middle place between the weak and the strong. We are simply stating our views and trying to understand one another. Very nice to be civilized. I doubt I could change the view you have, so I'll simply respect it. Since I agree with the portion of it.

2010-06-12, 20:27	Link #1703
Chupps Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: UK Age: 32	Civilized indeed. It goes without saying i'll respect yours. Being average Shirley would have probably fallen into the "middle place between the weak and strong". Not being weak she did not complete the act, and being not strong she didn't initially reject it but needed help to get out of it - Lelouch.

2010-06-13, 02:38	Link #1704
azul120 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	Shirley had basically been Mind Raped. She had been mentally violated in the worst way, after her father had been killed and she learned her big crush was the one responsible, and she had been pressured into turning him in, something she didn't agree to. Her life had started becoming one big Deus Angst Machina. If you call her weak for crumbling apart, you might as well do the same for every broken rape victim in existence. And only a fool would do that, needless to say.

2010-06-13, 06:58	Link #1705
Chupps Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: UK Age: 32	You've foolishly generalized " every broken rape victim in existence " who I'm sure didn't all commit suicide. I'm fairly certain the majority don't commit suicide.

2010-06-13, 17:46	Link #1707
Xander Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	To keep this as on-topic as possible...I'd say that Shirley herself would probably disagree with that description of Lelouch. And rightfully so, as a matter of fact, though I won't elaborate on Lelouch here. Suffice to say that he is a flawed character, by all means, but his mindset is different from that of Charles in a few important yet often overlooked respects. Now, I don't think Shirley would have wanted Lelouch to do what he did, to say the least, but I feel she would be far more understanding, to a greater or lesser extent, particularly if she had survived the events of R2 episode 13. Not just because the poor girl was in love with him, I must stress, but also because Shirley managed to gain a certain amount of insight into the nature of Lelouch's personality, even though she failed to gain access to many of the details of his other life and the dangers surrounding it. Alas, it's interesting to think about what could have been but there's little that can be done.

2010-06-24, 02:10	Link #1709
Escapaide Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Seattle Age: 32	Let me start off by saying that I am a huge Shirley x Lelouch fan and have even made AMVs on the subject. Now, I have a question for all of you experts. Was Shirley's portion of the R2 Complete Guidebook ever translated into English, and if it was, can I please get a link? I know that the guidebook said that C.C. never yearned to be a lover to Lelouch and he didn't see her romantically, and that Kallen (although a very close allie and valuable team member) was ultimately unable to capture Lelouch's romantic feelings. So now I am curious what the book says about Shirley.

2010-06-24, 14:30	Link #1711
Escapaide Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Seattle Age: 32	I agree with you there. I love C.C. as a character and partner for Lelouch, but as a romantic interest, not so much. I have nothing against shippers though as long as they don't mind my Shirlulu opinions. xD I love Kallen too, but I feel like Lelouch was already too set on his business and much too traumatized for those kinds of emotions at the point when she kissed him to consider anything more. Well my account is allipwns on youtube. ^^ One video is specifically Shirlulu, and the other two have snippets of Shirlulu moments. I do plan on making more, too. /shameless self advertisement xD;

2010-06-24, 16:04	Link #1712
Escapaide Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Seattle Age: 32	Ooh, a music video thread. I'll go check that out. I'm very new to this site. ^_^ And critique would be great. I'm well aware that I'm no professional, it's just a side hobby. But I'm grateful just for anyone who wants to watch them.

2010-06-29, 23:12	Link #1715
Kittenlady Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: UK Age: 31	That's why I think Shirley is the closest thing there was to a proper love interest. This isn't supposed to be a romantic show, so yeah, I thought the romantic aspects dying with Shirley was a rather apt symbolism. The translation I read for that thingy also said Lelouch didn't have romantic feelings for anyone in particular, but I think it's better if fans interpret things their own way. They should leave things like that completely ambiguous, so I think they really shot themselves in the foot with the C.C. - Lelouch revelation. Regardless of what they intended, they fucked up if they wanted their relationship irrevocably platonic. I prefer them platonic, actually, but it could easily be interpreted as romantic. /lol off-topic People should just think what they like. And preferably not bash each other in the process, but hahaha like that's going to happen.

2010-07-09, 18:51	Link #1717
Nobodyman9 Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: U.S.A. Age: 35	Ooh, I had completely forgotten about Shirley's birthday. Yes, happy belated birthday Shirley!