Aquarion EVOL - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

I smell an OVA or a side story....

No, don't give them ideas. Let Jin die happy, there's no reason to turn him into the next Amata and Yunoha into the next Mikono.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by SABER60069

Heck does it still apply to Touma? wouldn't Touma hate Apollonius at this point?

Touma loves and hates Apollonius. All he did in both TV and OVA is to just show those filthy wingless humans are unworthy of his loves and she should just come back to Touma.

Apollonius just saw him as a bro but Touma is just too yandere for him. Heck there is Otoha Touma knows she loves him but he just uses her as a tool.

For 12,000 year Touma was expecting Apollonius to get back with his Celiane. What he got was the dog! And Apollonius was just standing there not facing him. Or claiming Celiane.

Thus Cosplay of the Soul makes sense. Fudo is the master of disguise but he telling his students to be themselves. Even the reincarnation of those close to him. Silvia and Sirius, Reika, and Apollo.

Heck one could argue he was getting close to Sophia.

[Destined_Fate]

Fudo teleported away after Genesis though and since he's the master of disguise he could easily have been the one to get with older Silvia. The blood of Celiane and Apollonius must still flow for new generations after all.

[Liquidzero]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

They better not ruin Jin and Yunoha. They did enough to Apollo, at least when Genesis ended we thought he was Apollonius which is far better than "He was a dog the entire time!".

didn't they establish at the end of genesis that apollo wasn't the reincarnation and that apollonius' soul was in the aquarion itself?

[Liquidzero]

Originally Posted by SABER60069

He was just quoting the song which wouldn't make sense otherwise since he also quoted he has been loving her since 12000 years ago unless he is a reincarnation of someone who loved Yunoha's past life

Not that the song actually means anything anymore considering what they did made it apply only to Pollon and Touma

Heck does it still apply to Touma? wouldn't Touma hate Apollonius at this point?

mykage is dark touma and is butt hurt at apollo for making him think he was apollonius. wouldn't you hold a grudge if you found out your former lover was actually your lover's pet?

[NoemiChan]

Will Fudo just face Mykage and have a heart to heart talk? You know privately... and say, sorry I prefer Lolis...

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by Liquidzero

didn't they establish at the end of genesis that apollo wasn't the reincarnation and that apollonius' soul was in the aquarion itself?

No, apparently Aquarion is just his body. Fudo is Apollonius himself.

[SABER60069]

What I have read says the Wings of the Sun doesn't refer to Apollonius but his Wings and it was tore off Apollonius when he saved Celiane then he put the Wings inside the core of Vector Sol when he started using Aquarion effectively making Aquarion the Wings of the Sun

So I imagine Fudou is just Apollonius

[Vena]

Found a post by an anon, that I thought was pretty good in capturing the problem with some of the themes or morales in/of this story. No credit to me but no one to give credit to as they are all anons. I'm pretty sure this is all from one anon.

I think this is what they were trying to do but somewhere fucked it up by introducing Zessica, bare with me:
>Amata, on their fated meeting, falls in love but gets to know Mikono little by little. He represents love that is now and cares about Mikono as a person.
>Kagura, on their fated meeting, falls in love but almost never gets to interact with Mikono. He represents love that is the past and doesn't care who Mikono is as a person.
>Mikono, because of the split in Amata/Kagura, feels almost immediate strong attraction to Kagura because of the past, but no immediate affinity towards Amata (for some unexplained reason).
>Mikono falls in love with Amata on her own because (same unexplained reason) she has no super connection to him from past lives. Same idea as with Amata about the now.
This is great on its own. But then!
>Zessica, with no fated meetings or instantaneous attractions, falls in love with Amata for who he is over a few episodes.
>Loses because fated meeting and Amata instantly falling in love with Mikono at first sight.

If they had just cut out Zessica and kept the M/F/M dynamic, the end result would have been pretty damn good if my above assumption is correct. So why did they include Zessica? Her presence diminishes the overall messages because the girl without the FATE and LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT advantage losses. Leaving you with,
>Fate shouldn't be the only reason that people love one another.
>But don't get in its fucking way.

Its one thing to troll the audience but to introduce a character that demolishes what could have been a somewhat compelling narrative point? I just don't get it.

There is the possibility that I am wrong on my assumption about Mikono. I'm making the assumption on what I think the show is trying to tell me but with how slow this part is, I have no definite answers (25 episodes later) because Mikono's a hard nut to crack. We're never given much clear info from her point of view and the best we were ever given was in 19. From 19, I assume that she means to confess and that she would represent the "now" alongside Amata.
>Mikono, because of the split in Amata/Kagura, feels almost immediate strong attraction to Kagura because of the past, but no immediate affinity towards Amata (for some unexplained reason).
Can be built on in a few different ways but I think its best served to match Amata's development since they are the main characters and central couple. This is why I said,
>Mikono falls in love with Amata on her own because (same unexplained reason) she has no super connection to him from past lives.
But including Zessica as a character and strong foil to Mikono, gives a weird end result,
>Zessica is fighting fate as a total outsider, loves Amata for Amata, but cannot win because she doesn’t get a fated encounter and Amata fell in love with Mikono instantly.
>Mikono is resisting half of her fate (Kagura) and her strong reactions to Kagura, loves Amata for Amata, and wins because Amata was in her fate and he fell in love at first sight.
I can’t find a clear message which there would have been if you simply omit Zessica from the story.

So why? Kagura, Amata, and Zessica are clear cut at this point, leaving Mikono as the wild card.

[Destined_Fate]

Man... They really want to cut Zessica and think that would somehow make Amata and Mikono more endearing. With how hypocritical and sidelined Amata is I don't think he would be as popular as the Kagura x Mikono fan dream even if Zessica never appeared. Says something when the only way to try and salvage the main pair is to get rid of the more popular choice altogether.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Man... They really want to cut Zessica and think that would somehow make Amata and Mikono more endearing. With how hypocritical and sidelined Amata is I don't think he would be as popular as the Kagura x Mikono fan dream even if Zessica never appeared. Says something when the only way to try and salvage the main pair is to get rid of the more popular choice altogether.

I think the idea was that said person was saying that the inclusion of Zessica, in how they are handling the story, makes no sense at all. She beats Mikono and Amata at their supposed theme (love of now over love because of fate) (and, if you remember Triple_R's post before, her existence further helps to make Mikono look worse as a character) but loses... because of fate. Effectively, you're left with some nonsense middle ground that says that:

You shouldn't love someone because fate says so but you must be fated to even stand a chance.

Spoiler for sigh:

So why is she in the story?

[miketyson]

Vena: I mean, I see it and I don't. I am just waiting to see the final episode and only then does it seem worth trying to work backwards and figure out what it was they were trying to do, how the pieces were meant to fit together, and where it all (presumably!) went wrong....

Though, I think we even had a discussion here a bit back about how you could clean the show up by removing any 1 of the main 4 characters.

[Destined_Fate]

It was just a love triangle handled horribly. She was supposed to serve as the rival, and opposite, of Mikono that makes viewers wonder if Amata will get with her or Mikono. However they failed with that since it was too one sided with Amata only showing slight care for her while going crazy for Mikono even though she's causing him the most pain.

Personally I feel the series would be better if Zessica was made for the end game pair. Such as Amata choosing her in the end after realizing how stupid he has been the entire time for letting his fascination for Mikono(Which he later figures out that he doesn't even know why he's so crazy for her.. Oh right, Destiny and love at first sight. The things he's fighting against) cloud him from Zessica who has been trying so hard to even get noticed. With him getting over destiny/Mikono which leads to Mykage giving off a "FUUUUUU" face because now Zessica isn't the unchosen, thus no more body, and neither is Mikono since Kagura still loves her even if she doesn't get with him.

Of course this would require that Amata actually be shown giving a **** about Zessica more in the series and not immediately forget she exists when Mikono shows up to be useless.

If this ends badly, which I'm 100% it will with the preview showing Amata and Mikono being idiots, I can see them trying to cash in on angry fans by making an OVA with Zessica as the lead heroine instead of Mikono than say it's another time or universe. Whatever floats their boat.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by miketyson

Vena: I mean, I see it and I don't. I am just waiting to see the final episode and only then does it seem worth trying to work backwards and figure out what it was they were trying to do, how the pieces were meant to fit together, and where it all (presumably!) went wrong....

Though, I think we even had a discussion here a bit back about how you could clean the show up by removing any 1 of the main 4 characters.

I don't expect to too much to suddenly change come last episode, unless they suddenly pull a *Zessica = X* reveal. All I'm remarking on now and what the post caught my attention on, is that, while Amata (and I'm going to presume Mikono) says that "Ya fate, but here's the rest of her that I also love!" and then says "I have the wings to fly above destiny!" it all just comically crashes into the mere existence of Zessica and comes off as shallow. You have this muddled nonsense of,
- Fated but I have the wings to fly above fate and I love the girl for who she is, to end up with the girl I am fated for and with whom I fell in love the moment I met her because of a fated meeting.
vs.
- Not fated, loves the guy for who he is, ends up as Mykage's new car.

If they just removed Zessica there wouldn't be a problem and Kagura and Amata comparing each other's reasons, and Mikono giving a reason next episode, won't come off as awkward when compared to that girl who took on the world and got crushed cause she did get the *instant love cause of fate* perk when leveling up in Skyrim.

[Destined_Fate]

Even if they removed Zessica it wouldn't change how stupid a lot of the things Amata has said when it comes to Mikono and Destiny/Fate.

[miketyson]

Vena: ah, I see what you were trying to highlight. I think this is stuff I've typed up before, but I think that there's a good chance the show is going to go for a more radically anti-fate message than what you're implicitly thinking...and thus the muddledness with how fate fits into the characters' lives might actually be intentional. But there's no way to know that for sure until it ends...so I will be waiting eagerly until sunday.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Even if they removed Zessica it wouldn't change how stupid a lot of the things Amata has said when it comes to Mikono and Destiny/Fate.

No. They'd make a lot more sense if they removed Zessica because with her getting removed, you also remove the fate fighting theme all together. There's nothing wrong for Amata to claim that he likes Mikono for who she is, so long as he also acknowledges that fate plays its part in their love, an important part (which he did this episode, they felt fated at first*). Problem is, as long as there's Zessica, she undermines the theme by actually, you know, trying to fight fate and win the guy genuinely for who he is and there's no shady area for her on how much is owed to fate and how much is genuinely now.

*This part is honestly what makes it sound stupid because you basically have the show admitting that, while fate shouldn't be the only reason, if you don't have it as a quality you can't hope to win (so long as Zessica exists). If you remove Zessica, Amata and Kagura comparing each other's reasons is fine because, in the context of the show, there would be no better example. While, right now, there is a better example.

Originally Posted by miketyson

Vena: ah, I see what you were trying to highlight. I think this is stuff I've typed up before, but I think that there's a good chance the show is going to go for a more radically anti-fate message than what you're implicitly thinking...and thus the muddledness with how fate fits into the characters' lives might actually be intentional. But there's no way to know that for sure until it ends...so I will be waiting eagerly until sunday.

I'm curious about what radical ending you have in mind.

[Destined_Fate]

No, removing Zessica doesn't remove the fate fighting at all. Even without her there Amata was still screaming about fighting his fate to get his fate to come true to anyone that would listen. Basically every time he ran into Kagura it was him spouting that same BS over and over again.

If they remove Zessica it would make the Amata x Mikono relationship even dumber because he literally has nothing in the way of it now other than Mikono being indecisive. Which loses a lot to it since she wouldn't feell the need to compete with the far more loveable and assertive Zessica early on, since she wouldn't be there, when she didn't even notice Kagura let since they hadn't met face to face yet.

The theme was undermined the moment Amata was revealed to be fated for her, that the man he's fighting is really just his other self who shares his fate, and that he has had no real moment to explain why he loves her so much, that he has screwed over his friends more than once for, other than "Love at first sight" and "Fate/Destiny". So even without her it doesn't change that Amata's arguement over why he's more deserving for Mikono is still stupid because he barely knows any more about her than Kagura. Especially since the "Compliments" he said about Mikono are pretty much untrue considering how things went down so far. It's sad that he really thinks that's Mikono but it's really just the Mikono he wants to believe she is but the sad truth is that the Mikono he sees isn't the Mikono that has been portrayed in the show.

[miketyson]

Not a "radical ending"...I'll be happy if I survive without too many marks on my forehead, .

Let me try and articulate it this way: with Kagura, Amata, and Zessica we have a nice spectrum of attitudes vis-a-vis fate:
- Kagura: Sylphie's my destined lover...I like this ("pro-fate"?)
- Amata: well fate or no fate I want to be with Mikono => actually I guess we're fated to be together, but I still liked her and wanted to be with her before I knew that ("fate-neutral"? clumsily executed but still...)
- Zessica: forget fate, go for the present day, keep on trying even when fate says it's hopeless

...(simplifying away some nuances, naturally)...and Mikono's not on that spectrum because she remains an enigma.

For me, a more-radical anti-fate message would be something that doesn't just pick a side -- e.g., it's *not* going to be something saying "see this spot right here, between Amata and Zessica? That's the right attitude to take towards fate!" -- it's going to be someone saying that that whole spectrum is wrong.

As in, once you start thinking about fate at all you've already made a potentially-fatal error, only compete indifference to and ignorance of fate is right, or something like that. That's the kind of "radically anti-fate" angle was what i had in mind.

[Destined_Fate]

Since Mikono is the wild card... It would be hilarious if she tells Amata it isn't going to work out between them.