Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

IMO, The problem with GSD wasn't it's main plot. The main plot was fine and actually pretty good. It was the secondary plots and relationship plots (with the exceptions of King Kira and Queen Lacus) that turns up to be a mess.

What if I told you 90% of the people who hate this show found the part above emboldened as the thing that actually ruined the potential of this show? You're right, the main plot was fine until The King and Queen $hit overshadowed the entire plot and made it meaningless...What chance does a main plot have against Lacus' offscreen WTF epicness? The mess was the K&Q crap amongst so much more, but Kira and Lacus taking over is where it begins from a critical standpoint....

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

You're right. It's not the only factor why GSD was a disappointment. Here are some other plausible reasons (which I already mentioned):

*Fukuda/Morosawa being demanding on/clashing with the VAs (Ishida, Shindo, Tanaka, Suzumura, Sakamoto)
*Morosawa was becoming ill/depressed, resulting in her turning her scripts late; one of the animators called her out for this
*Shinn wasn't getting over as Sunrise/Bandai hoped, and Kira and Co. were still over w/ the Japanese audience

I forgot to mention that Fukuda's 2003 interview (which was done after Seed was completed) was a harbinger of what was gonna happen in Destiny (esp. that comment explaining that Andrew was resurrected because of a lack of "cool adults" in the show, as well as referring to Orb as "his idealized Japan").

The first is not likely as the voice acting was never a problem with the series. You're always going to get backroom drama, every Gundam Director has some story to tell. Imagawa isn't shy about telling people some of the backroom drama with G Gundam. In fact G Gundam was the Gundam series with the most meddling because of the failure of V Gundam. You can blame Bandai/Sunrise for telling Kuroda and Mizushima to create a masked character but you can't blame them for how Graham turned out.

The second is unknown as no one has said anything, all we know is that Morosawa's illness has put the Gundam Seed movie on hiatus. We don't know what illness she had, or when she had it.

The third is likely though as the original Gundam Seed cast where some of the most popular characters of the past decade. According to the Newtype poll for the most popular characters of the decade. Kira Yamato was second most popular male, while Athrun Zala was third, meanwhile Shinn got 17th place. Cagalli was the most popular female of the decade while Lacus got second meanwhile Lunamaria got 22nd place. This is also shown with Athrun, in the tv series they show that he ends up with Meyrin, but in the movies it's instead shown that he goes back to Orb to be with Cagalli.

[MakubeX2]

HD Remaster for 10th Anniversary. So they are just planning to re-release everything on Blu-Ray to milk the fans further with nothing else planned.

[aeriolewinters]

great news, if this means remaster of desert arc with superior animation... Me likey. Honestly, if Kira's Strike Battles weren't half-assed animation, people would be worshipping this guy.


HD Fllay won't hurt too.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Honestly, if Kira's Strike Battles weren't half-assed animation, people would be worshipping this guy.

But... thats what happened for the past decade...

- Tak

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

What if I told you 90% of the people who hate this show found the part above emboldened as the thing that actually ruined the potential of this show? You're right, the main plot was fine until The King and Queen $hit overshadowed the entire plot and made it meaningless...What chance does a main plot have against Lacus' offscreen WTF epicness? The mess was the K&Q crap amongst so much more, but Kira and Lacus taking over is where it begins from a critical standpoint....

The relationship by itself was fine, and I don't know where you get that because all the discussions I've remembered pointed the finger more on ShinxStella, ShinxLunaxAthrun, AthrunxCagallixMey, heck even NeoxMarrue before KiraxLacus. And if we got non-romance route, Athrun-Shinn, Athrun-Kira, ShinxEveryone, all had bigger problem as well.

Even tilled the midway point when Kira is musou-ing the MS like noobs, the plot was still acceptable with most people. Most Gundam Vateran can list similar domination from other Gundam series. The real hate started between episode 30-40 when ShinXStella been severely under-developed and awkwardly written which causes Destory-Gundam part making no sense what so ever and nailed Shin strictly to the wall with the "brat" label and everything after that spiraled down-hill.


It's one thing to say Kira and Lacus individually or together overshadows the show and one of biggest reason why the GSD fail in eye of a lot of Gundam Veterans, (including me) but the romance part between them never had huge impact on the main plot itself and was not the issue. The only time that romance impacted the main plot directly was when Gilbert sending assasins after Lacus which force Kira to act, and that was a pretty logical response and logical development and subsequently Laucs gave Strike Freedom to Kira which he proceeded to dominate the show again, but by that time the show has already turned into crap and it was too late to move Kira back into support role.

I mean really, KiraxLacus was basically set in stone even before the GSD started, and in GSD their mutual interaction has little to impact the main plot compare to the others I mentioned and the spot where they actually show their love-love side were not intrusive to the plot.



BTW, I was actually shocked the read that next year will be the 10th anniversary of GS, It seem only 5,6 years ago at most, God, I'm getting old.....

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

It's one thing to say Kira and Lacus individually overshadows the show, but the romance part between them never had huge impact on the main plot itself.

Not that there was much time devoted to their romance

Their relationship was pretty much cemented after the post- SEED OVA. Hell, they are as good as married.

- Tak

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by Tak

Not that there was much time devoted to their romance

Their relationship was pretty much cemented after the post- SEED OVA. Hell, they are as good as married.

- Tak

Exactly, that's why I don't get what wingdarkness was talking about and where this 90% comes from. Being a GSD hater myself. (BTW, GS was fine, I personally thought it was best Gundam TV if not most enjoyable since Z, and is competitive with ZZ and Turn A).

I also never heard any other haters criticize the romance aspect of the two as the problem for the show either. (if they do , they are already KiraxLacus haters back in GS and is against the relationship itself and most likely GS hater as well) Back then I was WAY more active in A LOT MORE forums (English and foreign alike). Hell, I even help running some of them...


I mean their presences, sure, but not their romance. To me, the little sweet spots they throws in between the two was what kept this series from falling apart even more. Heck, it gets to the point the only thing that kept me watching was hope that the two will have hot-steamy sex ala KiraxFllay in GS.

The biggest problem of GSD was that instead of going Shin-route as the show suppose to, it immediately turns into Athrun-route then Kira-route. And instead of turns it into Kira-only route then, they keep trying and forcing Shin-route back into it. Ultimately ends up as a story where the main plot was told from supporting and background side.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

The biggest problem of GSD was that instead of going Shin-route as the show suppose to, it immediately turns into Athrun-route then Kira-route. And instead of turns it into Kira-only route then, they keep trying and forcing Shin-route back into it. Ultimately ends up as a story where the main plot was told from supporting and background side.

I couldn't agree more. The way they kept on forcing Shinn route into the impossible eventually made GSD unbearable as a horrible story-telling exercise. Yet, when GSD was first announced, I already had doubts as to how the hell is Shinn ever going to keep up with Kira? Eventually the show itself proved me right. However, why keep on thrusting Shinn back into the behemoth that is Kira (with additional invincibility bonus provided by no less than Queen-Lacus herself)? If the producers already made up their mind in focusing on Kira & Lacus throughout the remainder of GSD, then let it be so. Don't further the mistake by adding another forced entry.

And holy-Batman... the fillers man, FILLERS!

- Tak

[GundamFan]

I gotta agree Kira and Lacus romantic relationship wasn't GSD problem the problem was too much clipping and they went from a story with Shinn as the protagonist to rotating the protagonist role between Shinn and Kira which wasn't excuted very well. Personally I think they should have let poor Shinn fade into the background rather then destroying his character during the 2nd half of the show.

[Undertaker]

And it ends up with all sides being under developed.

I mean during episode 20-25 when it's clear that Kira is taking over, they should just stuck to it and concentrate on how Kira and co. tries to figure out what Gilbert is trying to do, but then they switch to Stella part, but instead of using this opportunity to build Shin back into lead role, they cut it short again...and then cycle repeats and Shin became the butt jokes for many people...

Seriously, with the size of the main plot to execute that rotation they'll need another 2-cours (24-26 episodes) to make it work but that didn't happen.

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

And it ends up with all sides being under developed.

I mean during episode 20-25 when it's clear that Kira is taking over, they should just stuck to it and concentrate on how Kira and co. tries to figure out what Gilbert is trying to do, but then they switch to Stella part, but instead of using this opportunity to build Shin back into lead role, they cut it short again...and then cycle repeats and Shin became the butt jokes for many people...

Seriously, with the size of the main plot to execute that rotation they'll need another 2-cours (24-26 episodes) to make it work but that didn't happen.

Yeah I agree they should have just stuck with Kira and his group there really was no need to destroy Shinn's character and turn him into Gilbert's semilucid attack dog. I do think they might have needed more then additional 24-26 episodes to make things work with the way Fukuda liked to use clips.

Personally I'm still hopeful they'll release the Stargazer dvd over here some day and that's about it from the Cosmic Era.

[Shiroth]

There were some pretty nice looking scenes in SEED which i wouldn't mind seeing in HD, so i'll be sure to check out the release next year.

Do i want to watch Jesus Yamato in HD? Not really.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by GundamFan

I do think they might have needed more then additional 24-26 episodes to make things work with the way Fukuda liked to use clips.

Personally I'm still hopeful they'll release the Stargazer dvd over here some day and that's about it from the Cosmic Era.

Yeah, the clips and recaps itself consumed 1/3 of the duration in each episode, I think.

If there will be a movie or third season, maybe they should focus on Selene and Sven from Stargazer since they're quite under developed. Also, more Dearka and Yzak will be interesting. Sure Kira & co. can still appear occasionally.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

The first is not likely as the voice acting was never a problem with the series. You're always going to get backroom drama, every Gundam Director has some story to tell.

As for Fukuda/Morosawa being demanding on the VAs, there is some truthiness to this. Rie Tanaka confirmed at her appearance in the 2008 NYAF that Lacus was the hardest role she played so far.

And from the Easymodo archives, in which Suzumura compared playing Shinn in GSD vs. playing Shinn in SRW-Z (take these Easymodo posts with a grain of salt):

http://archive.easymodo.net/m/thread/4169592#p4172196

I'm not a japanese expert her, but, he mentions that his role as Shinn Asuka was one of the ones that troubled him alot and made him feel alot of pressure, also he's hinting that he had quite some bad experiences from it. He says it was the first time he felt that the directors (probably fukuda or whoever) view on "acting" and his view on "acting" was very different. The director wanted "easy to understand"-acting but Suzumura felt that as the actor that he wanted to know more about Shinn's experiences and feelings/emotions so that he could do the acting better.

http://archive.easymodo.net/m/thread/5187350#p5189079

>Suzumura mentions that his role as Shinn Asuka was one of the ones that troubled him alot and made him feel alot of pressure. Also he's hinting that he had quite some bad experiences from it. He says it was the first time he felt that the directors (probably fukuda) view on "acting" and his view on "acting" was very different. The director wanted "easy to understand"-acting but Suzumura felt that as the actor he wanted to know more about Shinn's experiences and feelings/emotions so that he could portray Shinn better.

[rakusukira]

let's just face it. Kira's popularity in SEED was too much for Shinn. heck, i don't even know why they created a NEW main character for Destiny..

but I liked how Shinn was turned into a puppet late in the series, quite unique for a main character (but poorly executed) .. I can't hate Kira.. I'm a raging fangirl anyways.

OHHH!! HD of SEED!! which means....

Spoiler for :D:

Fllay in HD as well

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Yeah, the clips and recaps itself consumed 1/3 of the duration in each episode, I think.

If there will be a movie or third season, maybe they should focus on Selene and Sven from Stargazer since they're quite under developed. Also, more Dearka and Yzak will be interesting. Sure Kira & co. can still appear occasionally.

The Stargazer stuff sounds good however Seed Astray movie or tv series would be even better. If they do try something like this I think it would be best to keep Kira & co. out of the series or movie since they tend to steal new characters thunder.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by GundamFan

The Stargazer stuff sounds good however Seed Astray movie or tv series would be even better. If they do try something like this I think it would be best to keep Kira & co. out of the series or movie since they tend to steal new characters thunder.

I always found that many element of Astray's story to be quite hilarious. Moreover, some of the mechs are too decorated and some of the characters are too eccentric. Absolutely not a very serious stuff. Still, I'm not saying that I don't want to see it get animated (of course I do). If they make an Astray anime to be a continuation of GS and GSD, there will be a drastic tonal change, from serious to hilarious. That's what I think, at least .

You're right about keeping Kira and Lacus away from new characters though. That couple can really drain the life energy out of any new character they're sharing screen with.

[wingdarkness]

@Undertaker and Tak - I could go thru this whole big spiel where I come up with in-depth point after point to explain how Kira and Lacus overshadowing the new cast killed the show...I have so many examples Bandai Unlimited would summon my a$$ the moment I click the REPLY BUTTON, post haste mind you...So all I can tell you is that I WAS HERE...I was here for it all on animesuki.com (Use the SEARCH button), and trust me, the lion share of people who really hated this show (not just disliked, but could stand it since K & L were getting glitz moments), but hated it was because of Lacus' Mary Sue plot maneuvering and Killer Tomatoes' untouchable un-emotional, arigato Mr Roboto persona the entire series while falling ass backwurds into the Title roll again...

Oh and Kira loved Fllay in GS, go watch ep 46 again...



Edit: OK maybe I read all of this wrong^^...

What romance did Kira and Lacus have? I just assumed you meant their secondary plot interference (from what I quoted from you)...Lovebugs attached at the a$$ have more romance than Kira and Lacus...Raw Le Cruset and his druggy-bottle of Flintstones Vitamins had more romance than K & L...

You said they were the "exceptions"..If all you meant was their romance wasn't as annoying as the rest (since it was barely apparent, nevermind expressive) then, uhhh, yeah...

Oh eff-yeah @ seeing the desert arc berzerker Kira in HD...My favorite Kira, Fllay-powered!

[monster]

Unless it's an original story, I don't want them to animate Astray. Unicorn aside (since it's already happening), I'd rather Gundam shows not be an adaptation of manga/novel/game/etc.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Oh eff-yeah @ seeing the desert arc berzerker Kira in HD...My favorite Kira, Fllay-powered!

One of the few things we agree on about Kira.