Character Discussion - Suzaku

[minnadaisuki]

I am sure that there will be another confrontation between Lelouch and Suzaku. Even if I didn't write the story, I am sure that will happen.

[Kovensky]

New (unconfirmed and not reputable) spoilers say that

Spoiler for new spoilers:

there will be two confrontations.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Considering Leluoch is involved, yes, yes it does. Nobody else has any reason to kill her after all.

Wait... wait... The intellegince agency wasn't there. You had two local cops and medics. So what are you talking about?

Also, killing her to make it look like suicide? You mean... Like GEASS does?

Um, what? Knowing that Geass can command people to do stuff, why can't he make the deduction that Geass can be ordered to kill someone?

And for all Suzaku knows, Lelouch could have just said "shoot yourself" which means it doesn't have to be a head shot or a heart shot.

And considering the length that Lelouch went to save her it seemed unlikely he would turn around to kill her without a second thought. And the intelligence agency is supposed to follow Lelouch everywhere he goes to spy on him. It is not out of the realm of possibility that if they found out that one of the geassed people regained their memories they may see that as a security risk, hell Rollo has killed how many of them? And that seems like common knowledge among the agency. Or better yet if he truly believe they were not around then why not investigate them because they were not doing their job?

It may be something that geass is capable of making covering up a murder as suicide but it is not the only thing that is capable of such.

If Lelouch wanted to kill someone he would not say shoot yourself and risk the victim living long enough possibly give anyone any information that could blow his cover considering she regained her memories. And I think we can agree that all the characters that know Lelouch would agree that Lelouch is not an idiot but rather a very calculating individual that thinks several moves ahead. Why would Lelouch choose such a conspicuous way to kill Shirley to keep his secret hidden? As you said Suzaku knew he had a geass that can give commands, he could have her jump off the building to make it look more like a suicide. Yet he chose a method that is likely to raise a few eyebrows?

Um, no.
He was upset and not in the right state of mind. Notice he still suspect Lelouch of doing it (especially now that he knows his memories are definitely back.) As for Kallen, again, for the 100th time, he was not quite in the right state of mind. He was angry and upset and he wasn't thinking clearly. He wanted to lash out just like Lelouch did, but at least he stopped himself. So what are you going on about?

Which is my point, that rather then him suspecting Lelouch because he thinks geass was used on Shirley to kill her, that he was overcome by his anger. He had already made up his mind that Lelouch is still Zero and that he killed Shirley, not because of geass but because of his personal bias and anger at Lelouch.

[Eliarine]

Wait, we're still discussing this? x_x

Originally Posted by demon_god04

And considering the length that Lelouch went to save her it seemed unlikely he would turn around to kill her without a second thought.

I think someone already suggested that Lelouch and Shirley *could* have met in the mall after everybody was evacuated and he realized she had regained her memories at that moment. Then he killed her.

Originally Posted by demon_god04

It may be something that geass is capable of making covering up a murder as suicide but it is not the only thing that is capable of such.

Except Geass is automatically SUSPECT NUMBER ONE in Suzaku's mind right now.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Actually, that raises an interesting question. Instead of dicking around with Refrain, why didn't he tell the surveillance team "You're supposed to watch Lelouch 24/7, right? Where was he when Shirley died?"

Which is what many of us brought out, stating that it was pretty stupid to drug her when all he has to do is go to the agency to check on the data.

Fortunately he changed his mind at the last minute.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

And considering the length that Lelouch went to save her it seemed unlikely he would turn around to kill her without a second thought.

If he realized that Shirley regained her memories, Suzaku wouldn;t put it past him. As Eliarine mentioned.

And the intelligence agency is supposed to follow Lelouch everywhere he goes to spy on him. It is not out of the realm of possibility that if they found out that one of the geassed people regained their memories they may see that as a security risk, hell Rollo has killed how many of them? And that seems like common knowledge among the agency. Or better yet if he truly believe they were not around then why not investigate them because they were not doing their job?

Because after that situation, he wasn't thinking clearly. Which I have said too many times now.

It may be something that geass is capable of making covering up a murder as suicide but it is not the only thing that is capable of such.

No, just the fact that Lelouch has Geass and uses it recklessly. Sorry demon_god04, your reasoning here is really weak.

If Lelouch wanted to kill someone he would not say shoot yourself and risk the victim living long enough possibly give anyone any information that could blow his cover considering she regained her memories.

As far as Suzaku is concerned, Lelouch is sadistic enough to do that.

And I think we can agree that all the characters that know Lelouch would agree that Lelouch is not an idiot but rather a very calculating individual that thinks several moves ahead. Why would Lelouch choose such a conspicuous way to kill Shirley to keep his secret hidden? As you said Suzaku knew he had a geass that can give commands, he could have her jump off the building to make it look more like a suicide. Yet he chose a method that is likely to raise a few eyebrows?

Because she was right there and that is what would appear to happen to Suzaku? You know, the obvious.

Which is my point, that rather then him suspecting Lelouch because he thinks geass was used on Shirley to kill her, that he was overcome by his anger. He had already made up his mind that Lelouch is still Zero and that he killed Shirley, not because of geass but because of his personal bias and anger at Lelouch.

It isn't all personal bias and anger. All of it POINTS TO LELOUCH. No matter how you cut it, no matter what you bring up in your rather oddly weak defense here (seriously, you are better than this...<.<) There is really not much else you can point to. Lelouch gained back his memories and when he found out Shirley did too, killed her in cold blood. Until Suzaku learns the full story, Lelouch is definitely the number one suspect, not just because of bias, but because that is what all signs point to.

[Kovensky]

Or not. We would be very happily be bashing him even more right now

But it would have been too cruel to Kallen

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Wait, we're still discussing this? x_x

I think someone already suggested that Lelouch and Shirley *could* have met in the mall after everybody was evacuated and he realized she had regained her memories at that moment. Then he killed her.

Except Geass is automatically SUSPECT NUMBER ONE in Suzaku's mind right now.

Which doesn't exactly hold much water either, considering as has been pointed out, that Lelouch was willing to risk his life to save her which means that she hold some amount of importance to him. It would be unlikely he would take such drastic measures unless she was planning to expose him or take revenge on him or something, which again is unlikely as she basically told Suzaku that she has already forgiven Lelouch for what he has done and that she still loves him. If she had planned on going against him then she would not attempt to get Suzaku to forgive Lelouch as well.

Geass is one of the possibilities, and considering Suzaku did not even consider others and seem rather unwilling to consider that Lelouch is innocent of that particular crime means that he is biased as he had nothing to back up his hypothesis and was merely jumping to conclusions.

[Kovensky]

And he should know that Lelouch is smart enough to convince someone that is not his enemy to do what he wants (or to not do what he doesn't want) without needing Geass... and he certainly wouldn't want Shirley dead. Suzaku knew he loved her to the point of be willing giving his life for hers.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Which doesn't exactly hold much water either, considering as has been pointed out, that Lelouch was willing to risk his life to save her which means that she hold some amount of importance to him. It would be unlikely he would take such drastic measures unless she was planning to expose him or take revenge on him or something, which again is unlikely as she basically told Suzaku that she has already forgiven Lelouch for what he has done and that she still loves him. If she had planned on going against him then she would not attempt to get Suzaku to forgive Lelouch as well.

Lelouch cared about Euphie too. Yet from Suzaku's point of view, the moment she became a threat for his goals she was killed after being ordered to start a massacre. The way he sees it yes, Lelouch can take such drastic measures if his schemes are threatened.

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Geass is one of the possibilities, and considering Suzaku did not even consider others and seem rather unwilling to consider that Lelouch is innocent of that particular crime means that he is biased as he had nothing to back up his hypothesis and was merely jumping to conclusions.

Yes, he's biased, and he has reasons to be. Lelouch was around and the crime is suspicious ----> LELOUCH.

[minnadaisuki]

Did you guys remember the scene where Shirley jumped off the building? Lelouch and Suzaku did help each other to rescue her. Anyway, this doesn't concern about Suzaku blaming Lelouch. However, Suzaku is aware that Lelouch cares for Shirley.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Orga777

No, just the fact that Lelouch has Geass and uses it recklessly.

Though I may disagree with the other points, I'd have to read it again, reckless is not a good qualifier for Lelouch's Geass usage, even from Suzaku's perspective. Enthusiastically, maybe, possibly even compulsively, but not recklessly.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Orga777

If he realized that Shirley regained her memories, Suzaku wouldn;t put it past him. As Eliarine mentioned.

Because after that situation, he wasn't thinking clearly. Which I have said too many times now.

No, just the fact that Lelouch has Geass and uses it recklessly. Sorry demon_god04, your reasoning here is really weak.

As far as Suzaku is concerned, Lelouch is sadistic enough to do that.

Because she was right there and that is what would appear to happen to Suzaku? You know, the obvious.

It isn't all personal bias and anger. All of it POINTS TO LELOUCH. No matter how you cut it, no matter what you bring up in your rather oddly weak defense here (seriously, you are better than this...<.<) There is really not much else you can point to. Lelouch gained back his memories and when he found out Shirley did too, killed her in cold blood. Until Suzaku learns the full story, Lelouch is definitely the number one suspect, not just because of bias, but because that is what all signs point to.

First point already answered moving on.

Right he was not thinking clearing and merely jumping to conclusion which was the point I was trying to make.

Lelouch doesn't use geass recklessly, with the exception of when he was geassing people to do pushups and bark like a dog and whatever else he did to those refrain dealers. He uses it strategically for specific purposes, except for Euphie when he did not know his geass went permanent but still it turned out in his favour.

According to Suzaku Lelouch is sadistic enough is basically his personal bias.

Right because she was there, but as has been shown, Lelouch is usually one to cover his tracks, and really if he did kill Shirley because she was worried that his cover would be blown then again killing her as such is not a smart move on his part and such a move is very uncharacteristic of him.

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Lelouch cared about Euphie too. Yet from Suzaku's point of view, the moment she became a threat for his goals she was killed after being ordered to start a massacre. The way he sees it yes, Lelouch can take such drastic measures if his schemes are threatened.

Yes, he's biased, and he has reasons to be. Lelouch was around and the crime is suspicious ----> LELOUCH.

Lelouch risked everything for Shirley, and Euphie's geassed and subsequent murder also served to farther his purpose. While Shirley's murder served no purpose other then to essentially blow his cover and threaten his scheme. And if he suspected Lelouch to use geass to kill her then wouldn't it be plausible to think that Lelouch would rather have used Geass to make her forget so as to not have any suspicion fall on to him?

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Lelouch risked everything for Shirley, and Euphie's geassed and subsequent murder also served to farther his purpose. While Shirley's murder served no purpose other then to essentially blow his cover and threaten his scheme.

Just because it had no purpose "other" than protecting his cover it means he couldn't have done it? She would have been a threat. Suzaku thinks Lelouch is horrible enough to kill his own sister without remorse, I don't see how accusing him of killing Shirley for being dangerous once she recovered her memories would be such a stretch.

Originally Posted by demon_god04

And if he suspected Lelouch to use geass to kill her then wouldn't it be plausible to think that Lelouch would rather have used Geass to make her forget so as to not have any suspicion fall on to him?

Not necessarily, if you take into account the "EVIL HEARTLESS MONSTER" factor. And Suzaku is not our resident genius: suspicious suicide+evil murderer of doom around = would you focus first on the possibility that he didn't kill her, or directly go for the other options?

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Just because it had no purpose "other" than protecting his cover it means he couldn't have done it? She would have been a threat. Suzaku thinks Lelouch is horrible enough to kill his own sister without remorse, I don't see how accusing him of killing Shirley for being dangerous once she recovered her memories would be such a stretch.

Not necessarily, if you take into account the "EVIL HEARTLESS MONSTER" factor. And Suzaku is not our resident genius: suspicious suicide+evil murderer of doom around = would you focus first on the possibility that he didn't kill her, or directly go for the other options?

Yet it did not serve to protect his cover at all because the murder raised farther suspicion. Again, Lelouch may be a heartless monster at times and to Suzaku he is, yet even Suzaku knows that Zero/Lelouch is dangerous because of his intelligence. Remember he even said so himself, he wondered why Lelouch found it necessary to do what he did to Euphie and that if it was him he could have found another way. He knows that Lelouch is intelligent enough to find a better way.

I don't think that him thinking Lelouch killed Shirley is a stretch, rather that I believe he did it out of his personal bias and anger towards Lelouch rather then any real evidence.

[morbosfist]

There's no question he's doing this out of bias because he admits it. He says it straight up: "I have no proof but I still think it's him."

He may have reasons to suspect Lelouch, but he's ignoring evidence because his bias tells him its wrong.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

I don't think that him thinking Lelouch killed Shirley is a stretch, rather that I believe he did it out of his personal bias and anger towards Lelouch rather then any real evidence.

That's...basically what I'm saying too, actually. And like morbosfist said, he even admits it. I think the only thing we're not agreeing on here is that you seem to find it outrageously stupid of him to suspect Lelouch, and I don't.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

That's...basically what I'm saying too, actually. And like morbosfist said, he even admits it. I think the only thing we're not agreeing on here is that you seem to find it outrageously stupid of him to suspect Lelouch, and I don't.

Maybe I wasn't clear but I find it outrageously stupid of him to jump to conclusions and try to use refrain to interrogate someone instead of using other means first to confirm his suspiscions not that he just suspects Lelouch. I was pointing out that basically his "reasons" were nothing except personal bias that logically would not hold water.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

And considering the length that Lelouch went to save her it seemed unlikely he would turn around to kill her without a second thought. And the intelligence agency is supposed to follow Lelouch everywhere he goes to spy on him. It is not out of the realm of possibility that if they found out that one of the geassed people regained their memories they may see that as a security risk, hell Rollo has killed how many of them? And that seems like common knowledge among the agency. Or better yet if he truly believe they were not around then why not investigate them because they were not doing their job?

It may be something that geass is capable of making covering up a murder as suicide but it is not the only thing that is capable of such.

If Lelouch wanted to kill someone he would not say shoot yourself and risk the victim living long enough possibly give anyone any information that could blow his cover considering she regained her memories. And I think we can agree that all the characters that know Lelouch would agree that Lelouch is not an idiot but rather a very calculating individual that thinks several moves ahead. Why would Lelouch choose such a conspicuous way to kill Shirley to keep his secret hidden? As you said Suzaku knew he had a geass that can give commands, he could have her jump off the building to make it look more like a suicide. Yet he chose a method that is likely to raise a few eyebrows?



Which is my point, that rather then him suspecting Lelouch because he thinks geass was used on Shirley to kill her, that he was overcome by his anger. He had already made up his mind that Lelouch is still Zero and that he killed Shirley, not because of geass but because of his personal bias and anger at Lelouch.

Lelouch's character is complicated. Yeah it looked like he saved Shirley when she fell off the building but even Shirley knows that Lelouch is the kinda guy that would say "I wouldn't harm you, we're friends right just to lower your guard and stab you in the back." I can see why Suzaku would still suspect him of murdering Shirley after saving her especially after it's hinted she knows his secret. Why not use Geass on Shirley. Everyone else thought it was a suicide, no one suspected Lelouch except Suzaku. Seems very possible.

[Kovensky]

But Lelouch jumped there with no guarantees that he would be rescued by Suzaku. He didn't just hold her hand and pulled her up, he was literally the rope. If Suzaku weren't a hax, both Shirley and Lelouch would be living happily everafter in the afterlife. But then the show would end :/