(L) Elfen Lied

[dreamless]

well, yup, I think Spiral's ending has no closure, and I think PMK's ending has no closure, and I think Tenjho Tenge's ending has no closure... and I think Elfen Lied's ending has no closure... I guess I'm just stricter about the term "closure" than others...

I can enjoy a smaller picture in a big one, but if some parts of the big picture are shown with the small picture, then I want to see the big picture too... guess I'm just a very curious person

[Streamer]

Whew...I'm just rewatching last ep, and thoght I would theorize a little on your questionnaire...

Originally Posted by dreamless

they didn't mention it in any earlier episodes, but as MakubeX2 pointed out,

Spoiler:

it's definitely not Lucy, since Nana can't feel her. It could be Nyuu of course, which I think it is

Spoiler:

1) because she becomes good girl.
5) I don't think so. we hear Bando shouting to Lucy when she leaves.
6) Chief Kakuzawa never mentioned what his "real plan" is in the anime.
7) I think it's Mariko's vector releasing Lucy and throwing her down to the stairs. it's very dark, so I'm not sure neither.

Spoiler:

1) I think Lucy recognizes a reflection of her own pain and anguish in Mariko (look at The eye - not as merciless as before), and a feeling of sad remorse (wich she has just found again after facing her deeds against Koutas sister and father) at what she's about to do to her surfaces, making her judgment fail.

2) Perhaps an ability to recognize their own blood just like they can sense other Diclo's? I'm probably babbling here...

3) She still has some major bruises in the scene at the stairs.

5) No, for some reason she didn't kill Banjou... ...I wonder if he ever is going to ponder his actions?

6) No idea - but major bad guys always has a backup master plan.

What I liked most with Elfen Lied was the way it made you feel with the characters. They all had their respective sorrows from the past and in the present , yet managed to build a relationship and a sense of family from that.

It was also very well handled with building tension - I was almost about to rage at the scene in ep 13 where

Spoiler:

Nana tries to get home, and all those lights flashes up, and soldiers line up for firing. I almost thoght Nana would buy the farm there - she must have been the most likeable, and in comparison to that - worst treated Diclonius ever. I would have been severely miffed if they would have killed her off in the ending. Another good tension moment was the "dog leash" scene.

I was content with the ending. It was both closure and openended at the same time.
The question is, what now? I don't have anything to watch that can compare to this - and I dont think there will be for a while.

Oh well, I will keep up torturing my fellow workers by humming and whistling the Opening and ending themes for a couple of weeks....

[SeedBoy]

Originally Posted by dreamless

they didn't mention it in any earlier episodes, but as MakubeX2 pointed out,

Spoiler:

it's definitely not Lucy, since Nana can't feel her. It could be Nyuu of course, which I think it is

Well, here's my thoughts

Spoiler:

That person should be Lucy/Nyuu because when Kouta was walkin to the door, the Clock ding which I beleive shows a sign of her. But if referring which one should it be at the door, I think its Lucy cause even though Nana couldnt sense her, I would believe that she doesnt have the vector anymore cause of the 2 horns that was broken off which is what I believe the reason why Nana couldnt sense her. Although I didnt think it was Nyuu because of her personality which isnt the calm standing quiet kind although I may be wrong cause she can change and she was the one who fixes the clock.

This was one of the animes I couldnt believe of ever watching til the end loving it. I'm glad I tried the first episode out which leads me to wanting to watch more. At first when I read about the description of this series, I totally ignore it and was about to skip it but when I got bored and try to find something to do, I came back on it and tried it out. I was totally shocked at first which is the cause of liking this kind of shows. This will be one of the Animes I'm gonna own on dvd.

[Mentar]

dreamless: Of course the Lucy-Kouta showdown offers some much-needed closure. This is the KEY scene the anime has been developing for. Frankly, the chairman's evil plans are totally irrelevant and don't require an answer in the final anime episode. The _real_ question is how Kouta will react once he learns the truth, and how the Lucy-Kouta relationship is going to progress from there. And with the Lucy-Kouta showdown, the question is answered - he now knows, and he can't really forgive her for what she's done, but he still cares for her. This _is_ closure. I don't think that your idea of closure is "more strict", I think that your idea of closure is objectively inconclusive.

Imagine that the anime would have ended with a pure manga adaption. Then, no questions would have been answered about this pivotal relationship at all. Lucy would have reverted to Nyuu and nobody would know anything. No closure at all. Same for almost all other questions. The manga end of ep7 doesn't answer anything substantial - but is alot more cruel. Just a cheap cop-out, screaming for season 2. In fact, the emphasized malicious part of Lucy would remain unpunished - and the message of the anime would have been entirely different. In this way, the anime is going much farther than the anime.

The anime is telling a sad story about someone who was REALLY dealt a horrible hand in life (Lucy) and her struggle to deal with it. If the anime had just ignored that like in the manga, the "huh?" factor would have been much bigger - and the message lost.

[Griffith]

Does anyone know where the manga volumes can be purchased online? I've checked the usual sites I buy from and none of them have it.

[MakubeX2]

Try Sasuga

[Griffith]

I usually buy my import manga from there, so that was the first place I checked. It seems they don't have any of the volumes, though.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by Mentar

dreamless: Of course the Lucy-Kouta showdown offers some much-needed closure. This is the KEY scene the anime has been developing for. Frankly, the chairman's evil plans are totally irrelevant and don't require an answer in the final anime episode. The _real_ question is how Kouta will react once he learns the truth, and how the Lucy-Kouta relationship is going to progress from there. And with the Lucy-Kouta showdown, the question is answered - he now knows, and he can't really forgive her for what she's done, but he still cares for her. This _is_ closure. I don't think that your idea of closure is "more strict", I think that your idea of closure is objectively inconclusive.

Imagine that the anime would have ended with a pure manga adaption. Then, no questions would have been answered about this pivotal relationship at all. Lucy would have reverted to Nyuu and nobody would know anything. No closure at all. Same for almost all other questions. The manga end of ep7 doesn't answer anything substantial - but is alot more cruel. Just a cheap cop-out, screaming for season 2. In fact, the emphasized malicious part of Lucy would remain unpunished - and the message of the anime would have been entirely different. In this way, the anime is going much farther than the anime.

The anime is telling a sad story about someone who was REALLY dealt a horrible hand in life (Lucy) and her struggle to deal with it. If the anime had just ignored that like in the manga, the "huh?" factor would have been much bigger - and the message lost.

well, it seems we are taking the anime VERY differently. you think it's more of a revenge-romance relationship anime, but I never think it as a relationship anime. I don't think the Lucy-Kouta relationship is that pivotal or important, nor do I think the Kakuzawa part is that irrelevant. I always consider this anime as a dark bloody thriller or something, definitely not a cheap romance/relationship show,that is way before I start to read the manga (yup I watched a couple episodes of the anime before reading the manga). And personally I won't consider just a Lucy-Kouta scene as a closure, not in anime, not in manga. Of course I don't think the end of manga volume 7 is closure, but I don't think the end of anime ep13 has any closure neither. That's why I'm quite disappointed about the ending of the anime, I'd be fine if it followed the manga without closure, OR deviated from the manga and offered some closure. But it delivered neither.

Of course you can consider it a closure if you think the anime is just a cheap romance/relationship show. But then that's just your take on the anime, and no more an objective idea on "closure" than mine. You may say that my idea of "closure" is objectively inconclusive, but I can also say that your idea of "closure" is just objectively inconclusive, you just take something without a closure as a closure by forcing your own non-objective idea of the show into it. But then this can continue on and on without any ending with us accusing each other taking the show the wrong way, so I think we should stop here and accept the fact that we have vastly different ideas and expectations about this show, thus we have vastly different takes on the ending, instead of trying to say "my take is more objective than yours" back and forth.

[hunterx]

since you read the manga obviously there is no closure for you when you pretty much know the spoilers. They could have done it one of two ways. The berserk/narutaru way where they just follow the manga and leave a big wtf ending, or come up with their own. Most people who watch the anime are fine with the ending. Lucy and Kouta talk about their past and they close that chapter in their lives. For non-manga readers that is a good ending.

[dreamless]

well, as I've posted, it doesn't really come up with their own ending, it has pretty much dragged all leads to a possible real closure provided in ep12 back to the end of manga volume 7 in ep13. As I said, if you think this show is all Lucy-Kouta romance/relationship stuff, then it may be a closure. But since I think this show is about something much bigger, there's no closure. Especially after Kakuzawa going MWAHAHAHAHA and then nothing more, I can't call that closure. Why they even bother to put that nonsensical Kakuzawa and Arakawa scene into it if the show is just about Lucy-Kouta romance/relationship? Maybe it could be said having a sense of closure if they cut that scene out of ep13

yup, they could have done it one of two ways, following the manga and giving no closure, or make their own ending, both of which would be fine with me. But now they have done neither, but a strange mix of the two, they didn't really make their own ending, and they didn't really follow the manga. For me this anime ends at almost exactly the same situation as the end of manga volune 7, just minus all those good stuffs which made manga volume 7 so great. It's the combination of the two (having no more closure than manga volume 7, and having no good stuffs from manga volume 7) that disappointed me.

And no I'm not really saying the anime is bad or anything, I guess I have to make this clear, just that IMO compared to the manga, it doesn't really offer anything new, and it takes away lots of good stuffs, which disappoints me. Of course maybe for people who think the story should focus on Lucy-Kouta relationship and have wanted a Lucy X Kouta scene all the time, maybe it offered what they wanted. Just that for me, I think the Lucy-Kouta scene is not important and badly done, and cannot be called a closure, maybe just as they think the whole Kakuzawa thing is totally irrelevant and a Lucy-Kouta scene is pivotal enough to be called a closure to the series.

[Mentar]

dreamless: Fine. If you meant that the manga ending of vol7 would have offered no closure whatsoever either, then I retract my "inconclusive" criticism and we can settle for what you outlined: That we expected different things from the anime, and I was satisfied with what I got and you were disappointed. I had understood you that your position was that manga vol7 would have offered a better closure, and I respectfully insist that _this_ position would have been objectively wrong.

If we take a look at what episode 13 offered the the main characters, we've got alot of real results. Closure in my understanding of the meaning.

Lucy: Got her desired chance to "come clean" with Kouta (as much as this is possible), found some care and happiness. May or may not be dead.
Kouta: Got confronted with his old wound and was able to move past it - this time without partial amnesia. Can live his own life from there on again, with his new "family".
Yuka: Gets to live with the guy she loves with her newfound family.
Nana: Found friends and a place to live - this time in peace.
Mayu: New friends, new family, everything's peachy on her end.
Kurama, Shirakawa, Mariko: Dead. Case closed.

So. These are the main characters - all of them found a decent ending. What remains open is the chairman's big plan and the humorous sidekick, the lab assistant. As you know, the chairman's plan would be impossible to cover in a 13-epper anime. Unless of course you'd cheat and let Lucy decapitate him too - now THAT would have been cheesy. They didn't however.

About Kouta-Lucy being "cheesy" - I totally disagree. A cheesy romance is where big emotions are displayer which have not been motivated in the past. Like a big outburst which has no foundation built for it. This is obviously not the case in this anime, because the Lucy-Kouta backstory took a huge part of the anime. You feel uncomfortable about the ending? Well, suit yourself. I strongly disagree and think it was nicely done.

So let's wrap it up. It seems that you took more interest in the "dark thriller" part and feel cheated out of some action scenes from the manga. I was much more interested in the character development, and the deviations helped there tremendously. The anime ending is great in my book because it _does_ give a good feeling of closure, yet leaves the door open for more. This is great, since almost no ongoing manga has had a decent anime ending.

I rest my case

[Proto]

Sigh.... IMO what is wrong with some of you is that you are expecting something the creators of the anime where not thinking in giving. That is, an ending that is packaged, and wrapped in a nice, fancy ribbon. You are all dissagreeing on the cheapness of the closure, because there is not closure at all. AND that is the reason I liked this series... because it is... (hold yourselves) a OPEN ENDING (taddaa!!) Like other endings like FF7's... the idea of this is not to offer the viewer with a nice, gothical style ending messages... but rather to create a structure that can be subject to a wide variety of interpretations, and to leave open doors for the creators to continue if they want (as many of you have mentioned) And I think the creators vastly succeeded at this (Look at yourselves, some ar happy, some are outraged, some are WTF'ed, and others are utterly confused because they think this is a Naruto thread.... well that's what Open endings are for! enjoy)

[Grona]

Okay, since everyone is just talking about the ending willy nilly....


Isnt Yuka, Kouta, and Mayu all infected with the "vector virus" now? Yuka got a good wack from Lucy and Mayu got the same from Nana, and apperently all thats required to pass it is contact with the vector soooooo...

[sarcasteak]

I love the ending. Humanity is doomed. Nyu. Got milk?

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by Grona

Okay, since everyone is just talking about the ending willy nilly....


Isnt Yuka, Kouta, and Mayu all infected with the "vector virus" now? Yuka got a good wack from Lucy and Mayu got the same from Nana, and apperently all thats required to pass it is contact with the vector soooooo...

Hmm... It seems for the Diclonus to pass on the virus, they need to intentionally get the vectors "inside" the target and pass the genes into them... not just making any contact...

oh, speaking of which, about an early episode, when Lucy tried to infect a girl after she killed the Professor, it seems she end up killing her or what?

Mentar : well, as I said, it seems we just have very different takes on the show... and no I don't think manga volume 7 has any more closure than anime ep13, I just think they both have not much closure, or are at around the same level of closure. And it's not that the anime having no more closure than manga volume 7 that disappointed me, it's anime having nore more closure of manga volume 7 + anime ditched all the good stuffs from manga volume 7 that disappointed me. Hmm... maybe ProroMan is correct... I guess a lot of people just strongly disagree with each other on this issue

Originally Posted by sarcasteak

I love the ending. Humanity is doomed. Nyu. Got milk?

well, indeed different people have vastly different takes on the ending

now we can't really be sure that someone behind the door is Nyuu right? I thought it was Nyuu, but now after MakubeX2's OVA info, maybe it's Arakawa? Or maybe it's Nozomi?

[Forbin]

oh, speaking of which, about an early episode, when Lucy tried to infect a girl after she killed the Professor, it seems she end up killing her or what?

She tried to infect the girl, she was already infected, so that killed her instead.
Lucy was like why doesn't it work.

That's where she came with the 5 years theory. EVERYONE is infected, and the children will be 1 year to be born, and 3 years to grow up and 1 more year to KILL EVERYONE.

At least I understand why the Chief wants her back...HE wants to inpregnate her. She is his QUEEN after all. A Diclonus Male and Female mating will create someone much worse than Mariko.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by Srin Tuar

Spoiler:

Hrm, thats not what I remember- that may just be a bad translation.
I watched the raw and this is what I got from their conversation:

Lucy is a bout to walk away, he grabs her. She startled and he says "I dont know"
He says that its true he can never forgive her, but he cant let anyone hurt her- that he would regret it forever if he did.
She says she's caused him so many painful memories.
He say yes, but then guesses that she's had many painful memories of her own.

Then they hug, and she kissed him. (seems to get a little high there too)

Anyway, wmhat I'm saying is that Kouta has not forgiven her, and hes also not willing to give up on her. He doesnt want to let her get hurt, and presumably doesnt want her to go about killing any more people.

So in summary, I think as confused as he is, hes doing the right thing.

Hmmm... about that part... maybe it's bad translation... but then I think I remembered something like

Spoiler:

Lucy told Kouta something about kanashii omoi... and then Kouta said to Lucy something about airashii omoi? Admittedly I wasn't paying much notice at what they were talking at that time and I might be misled by the translation so I heard it wrong... Anyone can confirm what they have really said at that time?

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

A bit of a mistranslation on my part....

"This Episode is an original story that is totally different from the main plot of the show"

Should be....

"This Episode is an original story that has nothing to do with the main plot of the show..."

Hmm... I'm not really sure what this means... it seems strange when it's put in context with the whole paragraph, it says that the OVA will have Nana follow Mayu back to the mansion, and Chief Kakuzawa and Arakawa come, it seems if there's Nana, Mayu, Kakuzawa and Arakawa in the story, then it has a lot to do with the main story... or does it mean that this OVA will be an alternate universe version of the story?

[Srin Tuar]

Originally Posted by dreamless

Hmmm... about that part... maybe it's bad translation... but then I think I remembered something like

Spoiler:

Lucy told Kouta something about kanashii omoi... and then Kouta said to Lucy something about airashii omoi? Admittedly I wasn't paying much notice at what they were talking at that time and I might be misled by the translation so I heard it wrong... Anyone can confirm what they have really said at that time?

I rewatched that scene a few times: no mention of "lovely memories" was made.

Are you familiar with the word "つらい", maybe thats what you heard ?

Anyway, if its really important, I can make a quick transcript of what they said, perhaps later tonite. I think it was one of the better scenes in the anime. Manga reading suckers missed out on that.

[SeedBoy]

Hmm, I dunno but something tells me

Spoiler:

that the father/daughter didnt die yet from the explosion because of how the scenery comes out, but since the bomb is implanted into her, then I was wrong unless it isnt.

Just my thoughts.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by Srin Tuar

I rewatched that scene a few times: no mention of "lovely memories" was made.

Are you familiar with the word "つらい", maybe thats what you heard ?

Anyway, if its really important, I can make a quick transcript of what they said, perhaps later tonite. I think it was one of the better scenes in the anime. Manga reading suckers missed out on that.

hmm... I don't remember hearing anything like "tsurai" in that line... I think it's something "-rashii omoi" at that part... but then maybe I remembered it wrong, I guess I need to get it again and rewatch that part.

well, I still think that's quite a cheesy scene anyway... and seems some non-manga-readers agree on that too...