(L) Simoun

[hazelnut]

Glad to see this thread this lives too, i was afraid people wouldn't be discussing it anymore. I'm with Kaoru about the open ending being better than closing off with a bang and a blazing victory, if only because it keeps you busy wondering what actually happened to those two.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

The show dealt with that, yes, but in the case of Neviril and Aaeru, the idea (or at least what I understood from it) is that they didn't let go (of their childhood, of their immaturity), and that they were the only characters that managed to do it.

I don't entirely agree. Yes, they did find a loophole out of their eventual fate, but they did so by wholeheartedly choosing for each other. You could argue that that's a mature choice in itself. Besides, they both seemed to have their reasons to try the whole Emerald Ri Majoon thing.

[WanderingKnight]

It is a "mature" choice because it, well, determines the rest of their lives, but if you think about it, they were the only ones who didn't have to choose their gender, which in Simoun's world represents the coming of age. They also were the only ones who were able to overcome Onashia (Dominura? ) and become the true Eternal Maidens--Eien no Shoujo--which without thinking too hard is pretty clear about its meaning: an eternal young girl.

(Plus, there are literally dozens of allusions throughout the series on duty, adulthood and maturity anxieties--especially with the contrasting figures of Neviril and Aaeru--the former is a customs-abiding girl who would have chosen her gender and forgotten about riding Simoun if she had never met the latter--who in turn is a pretty clear crystallization of a young, hopeful and rather naive spirit).

[hazelnut]

OK, i'll buy that. And yeah, Dominura's Onashia, i'm pretty sure that's what the writers were going after in any case.

And just because i can't let the whole matter go, maybe the idea was to let Neviril and Aeru do as they did so they'd turn into a sort of symbol of the other girl's bygone youth, a reminder of their hopes and dreams? Maybe the story wouldn't have had this impact had they just chosen their gender and kept flowing on the stream of time like the others did? That's what i liked about this show you see, it keeps you guessing.

And i'm not buying that they simply vanished out of the space-time continuum. Their story should go on somewhere.

[Kaoru Chujo]

1. Dominura-Onashia. I just don't think they look enough alike. And they were certainly played by different seiyuus. However, it still may be something the (many) writers had in mind.

By the way, Onashia's seiyuu, Tamagawa Sakiko, has a major role in the new Genji Monogatari anime, as Fujitsubo.

2. maturity. I like the idea of seeing the whole show as in part a meditation on growing up. Aaeru and Neviril remain young girls forever, each preserving her special form of purity: Neviril's pure morality and Aaeru's pure delight. They seem to be everywhere and nowhere, since they do seem to flash across the sky from time to time. But from their own point of view, I think they are flying around from place to place and maybe time to time. Like Dominura-Limone?

And if anyone here is interested in seiyuu, you might like to fill in my "Top Seiyuus of 2008" poll, linked to from my sig, below.

[yononaka]

This ANN forum post seems to indicate Simoun wasn't commercially successful for MB. Maybe I'm reading too much into it since the statements aren't explicit, but the highly emphatic tone of this response by an ANN Managing Editor seems to make things pretty clear, given how the staff there often get inside information on what's going on in the industry.

I suppose it may be hard to believe given my well-documented attitude towards Simoun, but I'm honestly not trying to have a "nyaa-nya-nya nyaa-nya" moment here. I thought about posting this when I read it first, but held back precisely because of my history here. But just now when I posted in another topic and said something to Kaoru Chujo that had to do with our Simoun thread history, I was reminded of this and changed my mind. Good or bad, you guys would probably want to know; and after all, this is applicable to other similar licensing experiments as well.

[4Tran]

The post that you linked to doesn't seem to be as significant as you allude. The emphatic part of the post is to emphasize that there's no solid information about how well the Simoun DVDs sold, and that anecdotal information is of questionable value. If Media Blasters had expected that Simoun would get great sales, they would have released a dub for it. Since they didn't, it's obvious that they knew that its sales would be modest at best. I don't expect Simoun's sales to be very good either, but this post doesn't prove anything either way.

There are a couple of rules of thumb to note here:
1. Even if information comes from a reputable source, it doesn't carry all that much weight unless it has a link to verifiable facts. The reason here is that words aren't precise, and it's possible to misread them.

2. DVD sales in North America are private information (with the partial exception of Funimation), and there are only two ways to find out what they are. Either the licensor releases the information, or it has to come from resellers. In the case of the former, you'll only hear about when a series does well, never when it does poorly, and in the case of the latter, the information is usually very localized (sales at a particular store, for example). If someone is privy to priviledged sales information, you can bet that that person won't reveal it, because they would be in deep doo doo.

As far as licensing experiments go, R1 companies still do it to a fair degree (Marimite season 4 for example), so it seems to be either a viable move, or it makes the best of a bad economy.

[yononaka]

@4Tran: Maybe (and you'll note I used rather tentative language), it's just that if the "no real information" angle was all she was trying to convey, I could think of ways less suggestive of "I know how it is [on good authority], I just can't straight out tell you". Also, I think "commercially successful" in this context doesn't necessarily mean "great sales", more like "the opposite of losing money", because she also uses "commercially viable".

In any case, this may mean something and that was reason enough for me to bring it up. And even if it means nothing, at least those who disagree with my interpretation get to say this can't be so and reaffirm their love for Simoun.

(BTW, I think your #1 rule (as worded) seems a bit excessive because of #2. With these two rules, even if a company president came out and said something sold well/badly, it wouldn't count unless he/she showed the balance sheets. Edit: As for not revealing privileged information, I'd be surprised if you've never seen company reps or their media friends use round-about implication to convey information they're not supposed to reveal directly, including sales information. Which doesn't necessarily mean this is such a case, but it could be. Those with enough interest could ask the ANN person to clarify.)

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by yononaka

@4Tran: Maybe (and you'll note I used rather tentative language), it's just that if the "no real information" angle was all she was trying to convey, I could think of ways less suggestive of "I know how it is [on good authority], I just can't straight out tell you". Also, I think "commercially successful" in this context doesn't necessarily mean "great sales", more like "the opposite of losing money", because she also uses "commercially viable".

You're still reading way too much into a relatively innocuous statement.

Originally Posted by yononaka

In any case, this may mean something and that was reason enough for me to bring it up. And even if it means nothing, at least those who disagree with my interpretation get to say this can't be so and reaffirm their love for Simoun.

I like Simoun a lot, but I still think that it was a risky license. There's only a tenuous relationship between liking the show and thinking that it would be successful. What you're doing is to start a rumor that doesn't have any basis in facts, and that's something I strongly frown upon.

Originally Posted by yononaka

(BTW, I think your #1 rule (as worded) seems a bit excessive because of #2. With these two rules, even if a company president came out and said something sold well/badly, it wouldn't count unless he/she showed the balance sheets. )

While your example is tongue-in-cheek, it's sometimes an accurate reflection of how things work in the real world. Just recently, we've had Bank of America spokespeople saying that "we're well-capitalized", even though everyone knows that the opposite is true.

Rule 1 is the skepticism that should be applied to any piece of information found on the internet (or anywhere else for that matter). It also works as a matter of degree, so that the more reasonable the claim, the less supporting evidence is required, and the more reliable the speaker, the less evidence is required.

[yononaka]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You're still reading way too much into a relatively innocuous statement.

That's your opinion.

What you're doing is to start a rumor that doesn't have any basis in facts, and that's something I strongly frown upon.

If you think I'm rumor-mongering without reasonable cause, please just go ahead and use your prerogative to delete this whole exchange instead of saying things like this. Seriousy. FYI, I did not "allude" to anything the way you said in your first response, I stated my honest interpretation in tentative/non-confrontational terms. I didn't say "BIG NEWS JUST IN! SIMOUN BOMBED IN R1!" or any such crap. If you think this isn't noteworthy, that's perfectly fine with me, but do stop suggesting mala fide on my part. I'd much rather have you say I'm stupid for interpreting that post the way I have if that's what you think.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by yononaka

If you think I'm rumor-mongering without reasonable cause, please just go ahead and use your prerogative to delete this whole exchange instead of saying things like this.

Even if I don't think that the link is newsworthy, I don't mind if other posters decide to check it out. As long as they understand the context, I'm pretty sure that it won't produce any undue pessimism.

Originally Posted by yononaka

Seriousy. FYI, I did not "allude" to anything the way you said in your first response, I stated my honest interpretation in tentative/non-confrontational terms. I didn't say "BIG NEWS JUST IN! SIMOUN BOMBED IN R1!" or any such crap. If you think this isn't noteworthy, that's perfectly fine with me, but do stop suggesting mala fide on my part. I'd much rather have you say I'm stupid for interpreting that post the way I have if that's what you think.

I'm not implying that you are acting out of malice at all though. What I'm saying is that while your intentions are genuine, you're blowing a simple statement out of proportion, and that this amounts to creating a rumor. Moreover, it isn't necessary to adopt hysterics to spread a rumor - a calm tone can produce the same effect. Again, I don't think that you're trying to trick anyone, so you don't have to take my statements so personally.

[yononaka]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Even if I don't think that the link is newsworthy, I don't mind if other posters decide to check it out. As long as they understand the context, I'm pretty sure that it won't produce any undue pessimism.

Heh, thanks for that generous allowance. Pardon the sarcasm, but really, even if it's not newsworthy, at the most it's going to cost people a minute or two of their time to read and evaluate it as they see fit. There hardly seems to be a need to write up guidelines for how to interpret what's written there.

And why should it produce pessimism to begin with, even assuming it's 100% solid? It's not as though there was some great bright future yet to come for Simoun (AFAIK, anyway). Are you talking about the potential for other similar experimental licenses?

I'm not implying that you are acting out of malice at all though. What I'm saying is that while your intentions are genuine, you're blowing a simple statement out of proportion, and that this amounts to creating a rumor. Moreover, it isn't necessary to adopt hysterics to spread a rumor - a calm tone can produce the same effect. Again, I don't think that you're trying to trick anyone, so you don't have to take my statements so personally.

Believe me, I would much prefer not to take them personally and avoid the drama, but saying "what you're doing is to start a rumor that doesn't have any basis in facts", for me, amounts to suggesting bad faith, since I happen to have pretty strong views myself against starting baseless rumors. So, what appears to be a suggestion that I'd deliberately do it myself is not something I could let pass unchallenged. (The funny thing is, without knowing what the facts are, that statement is also fallacious. ) I appreciate that you don't mean to suggest ill will, but it kind of worked out that way here.

Also, I have to wonder, how is it that I could blow this out of proportion to begin with if most people would think like you do and consider this not newsworthy? I couldn't very well start a rumor if my thinking is so obviously baseless as you seem to think.

Anyway, I think I'd better not look at this thread for at least a few days, because the last thing I wanted to do was getting into the kind of argument we're having here now... It's not exactly on topic, is it? Oddly enough, I usually like reading your reasoning, but getting to talking to you, we're having this problem... Go figure.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by yononaka

Heh, thanks for that generous allowance. Pardon the sarcasm, but really, even if it's not newsworthy, at the most it's going to cost people a minute or two of their time to read and evaluate it as they see fit. There hardly seems to be a need to write up guidelines for how to interpret what's written there.

Did I miss something? This person is not a MB spokesperson, and is speaking in generalized speculation about fansubs as a whole. This goes beyond rumors and non rumors to "why are you even linking this?" Some random yahoo questions whether Simoun was profitable in R1 in a fansub debate on another board. I guess I'll go onto AoD and post that Simoun made a bazillion dollars so the opposition has non-news to post in response.

[yononaka]

God, I knew I shouldn't have looked back in...

Originally Posted by musouka

Did I miss something? This person is not a MB spokesperson, and is speaking in generalized speculation about fansubs as a whole. This goes beyond rumors and non rumors to "why are you even linking this?" Some random yahoo questions whether Simoun was profitable in R1 in a fansub debate on another board. I guess I'll go onto AoD and post that Simoun made a bazillion dollars so the opposition has non-news to post in response.

I thought I said pretty clearly that this person, as an ANN editor, has just a tad more industry knowledge credibility in my eyes than just "some random yahoo". If you don't think so, suit yourself. Sorry for having wasted your time, espcially since we all know there's a requirement that only 100% fact-checked hard news be posted around here...

Edit: Just so we're all clear here: the reason I didn't just take what she said as a generalized speculation is that back when that thread was active, I read thought all of it (the masochist that I am), and that statement, and the way she said it compared to some other things she said there, stood out as significant for me in the context of everything else there (and still does). It's conceivable that I wouldn't take it that way if I just glanced over that post and a bit of the thread (as people are likely to do), but right now I still see no compelling reason to abandon my interpretation.

And I'm sure as hell entitled to link to what I consider relevant just as much as anyone else is.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by yononaka

I thought I said pretty clearly that this person, as an ANN editor, has just a tad more industry knowledge credibility in my eyes than just "some random yahoo". If you don't think so, suit yourself. Sorry for having wasted your time, espcially since we all know there's a requirement that only 100% fact-checked hard news be posted around here...

Yes, "just a tad more" is about right. But, you know, next time you want to post news, you might want to make sure it's actually, y'know, news instead of "people don't always buy things they've seen fansubbed" with some series you have a hate on for as the hypothetical example.

[yononaka]

Originally Posted by musouka

Yes, "just a tad more" is about right. But, you know, next time you want to post news, you might want to make sure it's actually, y'know, news instead of "people don't always buy things they've seen fansubbed" with some series you have a hate on for as the hypothetical example.

FYI, I have no hate for Simoun, I have a morbid fascination with it and (less morbidly) its phenomenon; and I have a certain affinity with this thread here despite hardly being a fan of the show, because an interesting discussion of interesting ideas -- like those had here -- gets detached from the feelings about the source material. You don't have to believe me, of course, but you really don't need to typecast me as an enemy of Simoun fans or whatever... (And see my edit to the previous post if you didn't.)

[Zippicus]

So basically what this amounts to is someone on the internet said something vague without any relevant information provided to back up their statement. Well it wouldn't be the first time

[gaguri]

Just in case anyone is interested, I found a blog article on Simoun. It has something to do with Ri Maajons and why Yuri is arguably the most pure and sacred form of love.

http://guriguriblog.wordpress.com/20...-lesbian-love/

[Proto]

and why Yuri is arguably the most pure and sacred form of love.

The only thing I can think of after reading that is that someone has been watching too much (yuri) anime

[gaguri]

I don't blame you but you might be surprised since the guy only saw one yuri anime.

The word 'pure' is bit misleading btw. It does not mean superior. Just pure.

[porous_shield]

I wished I could have watched this anime back when all the big discussions were going on but I guess I've always watched anime a couple of years after they come out so I'm pernmently late to the party. Anyway...


I looked through dozens and dozens of pages in the forum and was wondering if anyone had the same impression after watching the final episode.

I interpret the last episode as charactes (other than Aaeru and Nevrille) having grown up and how they view their brief time as Chor Tempest. The characters all see Simoun flitting in the sky briefly symbolizing again their brief time as Chor thempest and abrubt end to their childhoods. The last scene of Aaeru and Nevrille is especially bittersweet as Aaeru represent (yet again) their brief happy (things turn out to be happy) waltz as children and Chor Tempest and abrupt end of it all.

It was bittersweet and beautiful BUT I can't shake the feeling that Nevrille and Aaeru ended up in a fate worse than death and in being everywhere and anywhere but still mortals who transcended to that plane. It feels like the other characters sacrified them as a way of leaving their mark on the wall of being Symballa. The thought of their endless waltz, for me, tips the scale from being bittersweet to cruel. Another impression I get is that the last dance symbolize Aaeru and Nevrille lives as adolesences...short, sweet, and ending abruptly so that they are simply gone, sacrified, for the others memories of them as eternal maidens.

It seems others have the impression that Aaeru and Nevrille have the only happy endings when my view is the polar opposite....Then again it's not really clear where they went so their "other world" could be simply the future or the past.


Maybe this forum is dead but I was wondering what others think of my interpretation of the events or if they had similar impressions?