Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[StratoSpear]

Well umm... You got me there...

Though I admit SEED and SEED Destiny helped put the Gundam title back on it's throne.

And I also admit that both SEED series was the one that got me into this Gundam hype.

Still GSD was a miserable copy of SEED. The reason why some of us are raging over GSD was because, though it had cool Gundams, it was boring. The first few episode was good to me, but the downfall began the moment Kira starts intervening in conflicts.

Seriously, I've said this before, do you really need a "legendary" character to dominate every single episode? I think not. Kira did NOT act like how he was suppose to be. Rather than wrecking the episodes with his shiny Freedom, he could've just appear like, only during major confrontations(Stellar rampage is a good one) or something, just to make his appearance look rare, than it would've been cool.

Shinn was suppose to be the main character for GSD, but the producers failed to keep it consistent.

[D-KLAC]

Originally Posted by StratoSpear

Well umm... You got me there...

Though I admit SEED and SEED Destiny helped put the Gundam title back on it's throne.

And I also admit that both SEED series was the one that got me into this Gundam hype.

Still GSD was a miserable copy of SEED. The reason why some of us are raging over GSD was because, though it had cool Gundams, it was boring. The first few episode was good to me, but the downfall began the moment Kira starts intervening in conflicts.

Seriously, I've said this before, do you really need a "legendary" character to dominate every single episode? I think not. Kira did NOT act like how he was suppose to be. Rather than wrecking the episodes with his shiny Freedom, he could've just appear like, only during major confrontations(Stellar rampage is a good one) or something, just to make his appearance look rare, than it would've been cool.

Shinn was suppose to be the main character for GSD, but the producers failed to keep it consistent.

like geez this is like we're taling like bring back GS series like as THE DRIVE OF GS SERIES HAS RISEN AGAIN!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYChQHSnayE

also realize later eps became GS characters originals vs new gs characters (thinking like gs is the ecw of gundam)

[Shinn_Kabuto]

Originally Posted by D-KLAC

uh little history of anime lesson The Real Robot genre (including the Gundam and Macross franchises), which had declined during the 1990s, was revived in 2002 with the success of shows such as Mobile Suit Gundam SEED (2002), Eureka Seven (2005), Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion (2006), Mobile Suit Gundam 00 (2007), Macross Frontier (2008) and Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion R2 (2008).

so thank GS series for being the 1st to revive the real robot genre.

But this time, the 30th anniversary Gundam show is not the SEED movie but another UC series.

Originally Posted by StratoSpear

Well umm... You got me there...

Though I admit SEED and SEED Destiny helped put the Gundam title back on it's throne.

And I also admit that both SEED series was the one that got me into this Gundam hype.

Still GSD was a miserable copy of SEED. The reason why some of us are raging over GSD was because, though it had cool Gundams, it was boring. The first few episode was good to me, but the downfall began the moment Kira starts intervening in conflicts.

Seriously, I've said this before, do you really need a "legendary" character to dominate every single episode? I think not. Kira did NOT act like how he was suppose to be. Rather than wrecking the episodes with his shiny Freedom, he could've just appear like, only during major confrontations(Stellar rampage is a good one) or something, just to make his appearance look rare, than it would've been cool.

Shinn was suppose to be the main character for GSD, but the producers failed to keep it consistent.

Anyway, you got that right, my friend. It's ok that they have cool Gundams but the AWFUL character development and the AWFUL story killed it. Including the plot goes nowhere.

Off-topic: Code Geass R2 will have become another "Gundam SEED Destiny" but good thing that Goro Taniguchi saved the series.

SEED wasn't bad but SEED Destiny is a TOTAL TRAINWRECK. And that's a FACT!

And no wonder why you get banned.

And Kamen Rider Decade pwns Kira Yamato. LOL

[germanturkey]

i don't know.. its arguably that CGr2 was almost as bad as Destiny. its last episode redeemed it. but the rest of it.. its definitely comparable.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by elindir

I agree, the SEED universe has so many spin-offs that a new series or a new movie is clearly not needed, and this fact is even more obvious if you consider the dubious quality of Destiny.

I'm not sure how anyone would define a "need" for a series to begin with, but the Cosmic Era certainly has a lot more potential than most of the other Gundam universes (unlike say, yet another OYW retread ).

Originally Posted by coba

Sure,... and that's why we never have everlasting peace in the world, do we ?

Well, we don't have lasting peace, but that has very little to do with countries breaking arms limitation treaties. Those treaties are designed to assauge arms race concerns, so the natural result of breaking them would be an arms race. Since wars are rarely ever caused by arms races, this is a minor factor at best.

Originally Posted by coba

Like I told you before, this is about a moral stand. "No matter how small the sin is, it is still sin". Also, for someone who keeps preaching peace and condemn the use of nuke, they also do a taboo by using Freedom. I will be more happy if they don't try to lecture anyone else about what is right and wrong.

A strict black vs. white moral stance isn't really of any help to anyone.

My view of the situation is that:

1. The arms limitation portion of the Junius Treaty seems to be between PLANT and the EA. It's unclear if any other parties are covered.
   
2. The specific terms of the treaty are unclear, and there are multiple ways of interpreting it. The more strict interpretations are that it covers only the construction of NJC/mirage colloid weapons and the employment of the same.
   
3. The spirit of the treaty were undercut before the Signing Ceremony. The EA had no intentions of ever abiding by its terms, and PLANT wasn't far behind. Even Orb did little to pretend to follow its precepts. In essence, the whole thing was a sham, and everyone knew it.
   
4. Even if the treaty stipulations applied to Orb, they actually still followed the strict letter of the treaty. By the time Freedom was activated, a full-blown war had already broken out between the EA and PLANT, thereby rendering any arms limitation treaty null and void.
   
5. Even if all of the above is untrue, violating arms limitation treaties is one of the lesser international sins of commision that a country can commit. For perspective, the U.S. unilaterally dissolved the ABM Treaty in 2002, and there has hardly been an uproar over it.

Originally Posted by coba

No it is clear if this only involves the new equipments, they will clearly said: "The Junius Treaty prohibits the use of N-Jammer Cancelers in new mobile suits and military weapons, and all use of Mirage Colloid is banned outright".

You made assumptuion that this rule is only apply for the new military. Just think about it for a second, the idea of removing the use of NJC in military equipment is clearly to completely wipe out the use of nuke in the long run.

The actual goal though, is to prevent a second war more than the use of any particular weapon system. As such, the arming up of any potential belligerent is already breaking the treaty in spirit. Since that was the case before the ink was dry, all that's left is the very letter of the treaty. I'm not really making any assumption here; merely pointing out that the letter that we have to work with isn't all that clear on the matter.

Originally Posted by coba

That's always the case for the treaty to ban the nuke, there is no point if you don't try to achieve this (you will end up using the nuke again in the future everytime you preserve the existing nuke). That is also clearly the reson why the term "both sides are prohibited from developing or deploying mobile suits equipped with nuclear engines or Mirage Colloid stealth systems". The purpose of this term is clearly try to make sure that the existing NJC can no longer be used for military purpose.

Actually, there's nothing particularly clear about either the statement or your interpretation of it.

Originally Posted by coba

Well I used the term "Kira & co" to make it faster in writing the response. But still it makes look them (especially Lacus) looks hypocrite. For someone who always preach about peace, she does not even try to achieve this. Here you have a treaty that is meant to promote peace by banning the use of nuclear in the military equipments and she is the one who broke it first by rebuilding Freedom. Heck, if you insists on creating poeace, couldn't you try to contribute something in the first place like scrapping Freedom (especially considering she already has AA + custom Murasame).

The problem with using "Kira & co" is that Kira has almost nothing to do with the decision-making, and that he's pretty much left in the dark. Lacus, I can easily see being a hypocrite, but I really can't see it in this case.

How would Orb and the rest of the world (obviously not counting Orb's enemies) gain by them not rebuilding Freedom anyways?

Originally Posted by D-KLAC

well because morosawa still recovcering from her cancer during those GS times geez are reason why ya all being harsh to gsd.

A writer's health shouldn't have to be taken into account when considering the quality of a work.


And D-KLAC, can you please stick to using proper English? I've already asked you once before, and I'm not going to give you any more slack on this.

Originally Posted by StratoSpear

Still GSD was a miserable copy of SEED. The reason why some of us are raging over GSD was because, though it had cool Gundams, it was boring. The first few episode was good to me, but the downfall began the moment Kira starts intervening in conflicts.

That's strange; I always felt that the first half of Destiny was much weaker than the second half.

Originally Posted by StratoSpear

Seriously, I've said this before, do you really need a "legendary" character to dominate every single episode? I think not. Kira did NOT act like how he was suppose to be.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I'd assume that the creators would have a better idea of how Kira was supposed to act than you do, as well.

Originally Posted by germanturkey

i don't know.. its arguably that CGr2 was almost as bad as Destiny. its last episode redeemed it. but the rest of it.. its definitely comparable.

I couldn't make it past the first half of the second season, but I thought that Code Geass was much worse than Destiny. And this is despite all of Destiny's flaws.

[StratoSpear]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I'd assume that the creators would have a better idea of how Kira was supposed to act than you do, as well.

Well err.... It's just what I think . I mean, by default, legendary characters should not be appearing so often in a series.

[monster]

Originally Posted by StratoSpear

Well err.... It's just what I think . I mean, by default, legendary characters should not be appearing so often in a series.

Kira is not a legendary character though, it's his mobile suit that's gain a name for itself.

[Sir Dearka]

To all the people that actually accept Dullindal's idea as DECENT, contrary to Lacus and co.'s idea of "Freedom". Somehow his methods remind me of the nazi's, with their whole sh*tload of ubermensch crap and will to "create a perfect human being" and destroy all those who don't follow/are worthy of their views. Good idea for peace or not, I'd never follow it if it was ultimately spawned from a person without conscience Lacus and Kira have.

[yezhanquan]

Dullindal's plan was the classical carrot and stick approach. Don't forget that there are plenty who truly believed that the plan would work. After the PR victory with LOGOS's destruction, Dullindal is pretty much the salesman who can sell Eskimos ice in the saying.

The stick is, of course, the Requiem system. Without some serious work, that monster couldn't be taken out

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Dullindal's plan was the classical carrot and stick approach. Don't forget that there are plenty who truly believed that the plan would work. After the PR victory with LOGOS's destruction, Dullindal is pretty much the salesman who can sell Eskimos ice in the saying.

I beg to differ here. Durandal's original plan was to use Meer as his salesperson because he didn't have the wherewithal to sell the Destiny Plan directly. Notice that he tried to maintain an image of being the nice guy with no wish to impose anything on anyone until Lacus blew up his plan. Afterwards, it was a bit of a rush job to convince people to go along with the carrot and stick measures. And even then, he couldn't pull it off as well as he would have liked, and there were a fair number of people who were skeptical - if Coniel's reaction was representative.

It's also worth pointing out that people do adhere to all sorts of wild plans which promise great things, even when they really should know better.

[monster]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

if Coniel's reaction was representative.

Who's that?

[4Tran]

She had even welcomed Durandal as a liberator at one point too. And then there were reactions from Yzak and so forth.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I beg to differ here. Durandal's original plan was to use Meer as his salesperson because he didn't have the wherewithal to sell the Destiny Plan directly. Notice that he tried to maintain an image of being the nice guy with no wish to impose anything on anyone until Lacus blew up his plan. Afterwards, it was a bit of a rush job to convince people to go along with the carrot and stick measures. And even then, he couldn't pull it off as well as he would have liked, and there were a fair number of people who were skeptical - if Coniel's reaction was representative.

It's also worth pointing out that people do adhere to all sorts of wild plans which promise great things, even when they really should know better.

Aye. But, seriously, outside of the main cast, people who saw through the plan really had little choice. The Requiem system was a beast, to say the least. In fact, Kira and Co. feared that Orb might take a hit even as they fight in space to destroy the system.

As for the second part, popular support for Nazi Germany: nuff said.

[winter45]

Well GSD FAiled in many areas for me.

* One sided battles

* Shinn didnt get his character development (Unless this is how origionally he is ment to be)

* kira&Co took over the show (personally never liked them, too over glorified)

*Brittney spears outsmarting world geniuses soz ment lacus clyne

*Destiny project failed when popular support is evident that the world is considering the option.

*reused scenes but its already a given

*typical judah (athrun) didnt know who he wanted to be with

*Bad military and totally unrealistic diciplines and procedures executed with the main casts (I am a soldier in RL)

I have many more to say but the list will just go on forever.


In regards to the arms restrictions there is little point in discussing tbh. Its always gonna be the same. In RL both sides signes a treaty for PR it looks cool and dandy and all. But in underground secret basements research and development continues. War breaks out. Treaty becomes void and the whole arms race and deployment kicks in. (or waiting for the convieniant time to be used to negate negative backlash from observers and hold in reserve options)

Im just appauled that Zaft actually kept their part of the bargain. Seem really retarded but oh well gsd is retrarded in many lvls that i cant place a finger where to start.

Before someone says yes they made destiny with NC lalala i already know but am reffering to that they could of broken or voided the treaty in the beginning. But its still awesome watching Shinn kick the crap out of kira in episode 42 i think it is in his NC freedom.

well thats my 2 cents from my long absent in AS

@4tran

Your forgetting that dur fella is a politician. Like any politician they will use any trick in the book to get thier vote support or whatver his objectives are this is norm. But doesnt necesserily makes politicians evil cause they used an overused tactic. (not so much using body doubles but more of using celebrities as a saleperson as you described) So its normal in the RL perspective. Perhaps the younger audiences wont understand this but im sure the older and (hopefully wiser) will see where both of us are coming from.

But saying this, its will be harder for the younger audiences to see the grey from black and white. Hence y i find alot of difficulties understanding others when they reply dur fella is evil when me personally that given rl has taught us many things with deception that not everything is just plain out good and evil.

If thats the case than i should be condemed by a good percantage of posters here due to my military involvment in 2 countries of my so called *evil* activities with my leaders (Generals, Australian politicians, UN representatives) that general populace have considered the invasion of iraq and afganistan illegal and unpopular in most western countries of the world. Hence i will be part of *the bad guy evil team*

@ sir dirka

Using force is violence sure we can sugercoat it with that they are fighting for their ideals or evil invaders or mass genicidalists. But your forgetting one important thing. Just coz one side is fighting and one is retaliating doesnt make one side innocent. Its far from that.

As an example i was sent to IRAQ for peace keeping and to remove the so called crazy guy called Suddam. Guess what i wasnt welcomed as a hero what so ever. I was shot at, grenaded, rpg'd kids throwing rocks at me. We went under the banner as liberators. On their side i was labbeld as the invaders and conquerers.

My main point is no matter which side u are on the moment u pull the trigger for whatver banner u fight for u just become as violent as those has used against you.

If you want freedom and peace there are others ways to achieve this, but as usaul force is the most effective way. But by far makes doent make u innocent or good. Only a good person would rather sheath his sword and burry it and open the art of dialogue to overcome the problems then use the banner of freedom and justice by forcing his opponant to yield in the face of death.

And il lbe honest i didnt care who one or lost or whos ideal is right or wrong.. at the end of the day i fight to survive and go home and see my family. Tbh i dont care if i was in the evil team.. Rather be alive then dead. want to see my mothers face and my sisters kids and all. Saying this im not the only one, soldiers on the other team have the same mentality. They dont care if they won or loose they rather live and be with their families. With people running around FREEDOM, JUSTICE, EVIL DOERS.. Doesnt mean much to a soldier when we are forced to pull the trigger.

Hence y kira and co, logos, blus cosmos, zaft they are all in the same boat. It all depends on which side u are on will determine how you perceive your own, other nations if good or evil and so forth. But as a viewer not one party i would consider rightouse. All of them are far from it. We can only judge who is the lesser evil lof all parties but by far doesnt make them innocent or right.

True freedom is the ability to make our own choices. Not the other way around.

Ok thats my returning 2 cents
And hello to all those who remember's me \0/

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by winter45

@ sir dirka
Using force is violence sure we can sugercoat it with that they are fighting for their ideals or evil invaders or mass genicidalists. But your forgetting one important thing. Just coz one side is fighting and one is retaliating doesnt make one side innocent. Its far from that.

As an example i was sent to IRAQ for peace keeping and to remove the so called crazy guy called Suddam. Guess what i wasnt welcomed as a hero what so ever. I was shot at, grenaded, rpg'd kids throwing rocks at me. We went under the banner as liberators. On their side i was labbeld as the invaders and conquerers.

My main point is no matter which side u are on the moment u pull the trigger for whatver banner u fight for u just become as violent as those has used against you.

If you want freedom and peace there are others ways to achieve this, but as usaul force is the most effective way. But by far makes doent make u innocent or good. Only a good person would rather sheath his sword and burry it and open the art of dialogue to overcome the problems then use the banner of freedom and justice by forcing his opponant to yield in the face of death.

And il lbe honest i didnt care who one or lost or whos ideal is right or wrong.. at the end of the day i fight to survive and go home and see my family. Tbh i dont care if i was in the evil team.. Rather be alive then dead. want to see my mothers face and my sisters kids and all. Saying this im not the only one, soldiers on the other team have the same mentality. They dont care if they won or loose they rather live and be with their families. With people running around FREEDOM, JUSTICE, EVIL DOERS.. Doesnt mean much to a soldier when we are forced to pull the trigger.

Hence y kira and co, logos, blus cosmos, zaft they are all in the same boat. It all depends on which side u are on will determine how you perceive your own, other nations if good or evil and so forth. But as a viewer not one party i would consider rightouse. All of them are far from it. We can only judge who is the lesser evil lof all parties but by far doesnt make them innocent or right.

True freedom is the ability to make our own choices. Not the other way around.

Ok thats my returning 2 cents
And hello to all those who remember's me \0/

One's individual sovereignty is exactly something Kira wanted to respect. He never expected to be welcomed as a hero. He just wanted to make everyone happy, which in SEED just might be possible as it is part-real Robot-part fairytale. And it is obvious, even for ma as a civilian, that the only thing one cares about on the battlefield is usually their and their closest's fate. One fights for their family, their children and their country. Still, we are all victims of our own subjectivity. And my subjective judgment drives me to one side or another. In this case, it is the method and things sacrificed that decided which side of SEED I consider "right". Just like one may still think Germany's way in WW II was right, but it'd make him my enemy if he'd ever try the same methods while stepping into my country.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by winter45

And hello to all those who remember's me \0/

Well, I certainly do. Welcome back .

Originally Posted by winter45

* Shinn didnt get his character development (Unless this is how origionally he is ment to be)

Shinn ended up at roughly the place he had been originally envisioned, although I think that he should have been made a bit more sympathetic. I blame a lot of this on the failed Stellar subplot.

Originally Posted by winter45

*Brittney spears outsmarting world geniuses soz ment lacus clyne

What's wrong with that?

Originally Posted by winter45

*Destiny project failed when popular support is evident that the world is considering the option.

That's debateable. While only a few groups are shown to outright reject the Destiny Plan, there was basically no one who endorsed it aside from Durandal and his cronies. The most common reaction was bewilderment, and I would hardly characterize that as seriously conisidering it to any great degree.

Aside from those, I find that your other points have merit.

Originally Posted by winter45

Im just appauled that Zaft actually kept their part of the bargain. Seem really retarded but oh well gsd is retrarded in many lvls that i cant place a finger where to start.

They didn't - they were breaking the spirit of the treaty from the very beginning. They just have better PR .

Originally Posted by winter45

Your forgetting that dur fella is a politician. Like any politician they will use any trick in the book to get thier vote support or whatver his objectives are this is norm. But doesnt necesserily makes politicians evil cause they used an overused tactic. (not so much using body doubles but more of using celebrities as a saleperson as you described) So its normal in the RL perspective. Perhaps the younger audiences wont understand this but im sure the older and (hopefully wiser) will see where both of us are coming from.

Durandal is rather more ruthless than we would tolerate in our leaders.

Originally Posted by winter45

But saying this, its will be harder for the younger audiences to see the grey from black and white. Hence y i find alot of difficulties understanding others when they reply dur fella is evil when me personally that given rl has taught us many things with deception that not everything is just plain out good and evil.

Precisely. Durandal had outright good intentions, but his deeds can be very well considered to be evil.

Originally Posted by winter45

If thats the case than i should be condemed by a good percantage of posters here due to my military involvment in 2 countries of my so called *evil* activities with my leaders (Generals, Australian politicians, UN representatives) that general populace have considered the invasion of iraq and afganistan illegal and unpopular in most western countries of the world. Hence i will be part of *the bad guy evil team*

Good intentions can only count for so much, and we are judged more for our deeds.

[winter45]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

One's individual sovereignty is exactly something Kira wanted to respect. He never expected to be welcomed as a hero. He just wanted to make everyone happy, which in SEED just might be possible as it is part-real Robot-part fairytale. And it is obvious, even for ma as a civilian, that the only thing one cares about on the battlefield is usually their and their closest's fate. One fights for their family, their children and their country. Still, we are all victims of our own subjectivity. And my subjective judgment drives me to one side or another. In this case, it is the method and things sacrificed that decided which side of SEED I consider "right". Just like one may still think Germany's way in WW II was right, but it'd make him my enemy if he'd ever try the same methods while stepping into my country.

Not putting words in your mouth but with that logic then, everyone is right. Dont get me wrong not arguing, the point i wanted to bring across in my post i find it hard to understand how kiras team are right when their actions of justification is quite evil in my eyes.

This is were from my observations where there is a split in viewers.

One side say kira and co are righteouse due to their ideals

The other side says kira and co are taking matters in their on hands and do what they please which involves destruction of property and so forth which folows the actions of terrorism. (insert whatver belief you have that follows the path of wrong)

4tran and wingdarkness are 2 known opposite viewers when it comes to this even thos in my point of view they are both right and wrong but generally i agree mostly with wingdarknes when it comes to his views and observations when it comes to GSD.

But like i said its my 2 cents on the matter dont have to agree with me just wanted to say what i think.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by winter45

Not putting words in your mouth but with that logic then, everyone is right.

Well, the concept of "right" and "wrong" is pretty relative as we may see. I think you already noticed why I consider Kira and co's side the "right side". As the answer is simple: I have nothing against "guerilla/terrorism/rebeliant (whatever whichever side calls it)" in general. What I happen to be interested in is the intentions, not the result. Maybe that's what differs me from other's opinions. "Hell is paved with good intentions?" I don't think so. To me, the people who deserve to go to hell are those with no conscience.

[yezhanquan]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Once in hell, intentions don't count for much.

Those who fight in order to live suspend their conscience everytime they pump bullets into someone. Those who fight in wars suspend their conscience everytime they kill. Have they no conscience? I don't think so.

[winter45]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Well, I certainly do. Welcome back .

Thx

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Shinn ended up at roughly the place he had been originally envisioned, although I think that he should have been made a bit more sympathetic. I blame a lot of this on the failed Stellar subplot..

just curiose do you have any info on this.. i would really love to read it up.. Just conflict of info i have received. in regards the director intended for shinn to be like this vs that due to late handings in scripts everything is done last minute work and anything goes just to get production moving with little thought as a result shinn was butchered.

Just wish for a clarifiacation or a statement to clarify this.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

What's wrong with that?.

*Atm find it rather difficult to beleive. But as usal politicians from time to time makes dicks of themselves but are no way stupid when it comes to securing their positions. (except election days) Understandible actors and celebrities have made their way to office but deffinatly ive never seen anyone as young as lacus running a nation, (Royalty doesnt count in this tho)

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That's debateable. While only a few groups are shown to outright reject the Destiny Plan, there was basically no one who endorsed it aside from Durandal and his cronies. The most common reaction was bewilderment, and I would hardly characterize that as seriously conisidering it to any great degree.

It all comes down how each individual interpreted with the scenes when destiny project was released to the world. How i interpreted seemed people liked the idea, my memmory is rusty and i watched the sub version. So i may have been off. But by saying that there is also a good portion posters who have also stated similar reaction to how i interpret the destiny plan.

But yes agree it is debateable not enough solid evidence if is supported or not. It felt more like its up to the viewer to make up his/her mind on the matter. But i still strongly beleive the project is supported. With more solid info that could change my view.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

They didn't - they were breaking the spirit of the treaty from the very beginning. They just have better PR .

If thats the case then its quite normal nothing out of the ordinary. (but doesnt mean its acceptable)

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Durandal is rather more ruthless than we would tolerate in our leaders.

Thats debatable. We had some ruthless leaders in our time. Some were assasinated some were removed from power by force. WARS. Even some survived to live out their natural lives while still holding their ruthless power. Some of these ruthless leaders shouldnt be tolerated but we still do. Its only when its conviniant people take action against these characters and remove them from power. But this topic alone can go on for pages discussing history and right from wrong.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Precisely. Durandal had outright good intentions, but his deeds can be very well considered to be evil.

Yup i agree just all comes down to perspective pov who has been effected positive or negatively by his leadership that will determine in their own pov if his good or evil

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Good intentions can only count for so much, and we are judged more for our deeds.

Agreed but a major playing factor will be the deeds we do effect upon those on. Hence y i like to sit on both sides to get a clearer picture how both sides are effected when they taken action against each other.

But i understand. You beleive his evil while myself think the opposite we have our logical reasons to back up our views. But my pov his just another politician with a deathstar. Wouldnt surprise me any country with nukes when forced into a corner they will use it to win a war. This is one of the UN biggest probs with countries that can field nukes. Nothing to stop them from using them if they are loosing.

And i certianly hope i wont be shipped overseas to get nuked!!!