Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[Kittenlady]

They spent 8 years getting absolutely nowhere, then this guy suddenly gets them into a fairly equal battle for the country in less than a year (and lost, but that's still pretty impressive). They don't have to be completely happy with it, but it's a proven fact that whenever Zero's not around, they always lose. I'm not saying the relationship was perfect, but when their alternate choice is trying and getting fuck all again, they should have held on to him a bit more instead of just throwing him out at the first opportunity. It's just common sense.

Again, it's the execution of the betrayal. I find it difficult to believe they didn't try harder to keep him around.

Originally Posted by roriconfan

They were in a pinch because of Zero in the first place. Or would they all be dead if he didn't approach them in the first place?

Yeah, the second one's what I meant. They were pretty crappy terrorists.

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

They were in a pinch because of Zero in the first place. Or would they all be dead if he didn't approach them in the first place?

The creation of the Black Knights would not have happen and Kallen's group would have been dead. Todoh and his group wouldn't advance far either leading to his capture then death.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

But having two very different goals with a similar road to it, doesn't make a healthy trusting relationship.

If it was for a short time it might have worked out better, but Lelouch lead them for a good year all the while going behind their back and expecting them to just take it if it meant they might get what they want in the end. That doesn't always work, and when the truth was revealed it turns out they couldn't trust him enough to go out of their way for him, just like Lelouch wouldn't go out of his way for them early on. If it came down to them or Nunnally then he left them to their fate so it coming down to Japan or Zero and them ditching him is just desserts for his previous behavior.

It's outright absurd for people to think the Black Knights should be perfectly ok being 2nd priority to a useless blind girl.

It depends how people take these different motivations leading to the ultimate goal. People can be playing sports to get in shape while other team members play sports to get recognition, some play sports to get into colleges, but in the end everybody wants too win if they could and make it to the championships. Different motivations while having the same road can be healthy. It is only when other people suppress other people goals when stuff gets out of hand.

Besides, how would Lelouch suppose to know that Suzaku is going to take him down then and there. I bet if he would have gotten his sister he will go back to the battle front again and save the Black Knights butts.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

As if the Black Knights would know or care.


Trust is hard to build but very easy to destroy. After you abandon all your followers and leave them for dead to pursue your own selfish desires they do not come crawling back to you. That ain't how human psychology or the real world works.

Thats why people followed him even though they don't trust him. People do the stupidest things when family members are in danger, but I wouldn't hold a grudge on that.

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

They spent 8 years getting absolutely nowhere, then this guy suddenly gets them into a fairly equal battle for the country in less than a year (and lost, but that's still pretty impressive). They don't have to be completely happy with it, but it's a proven fact that whenever Zero's not around, they always lose. I'm not saying the relationship was perfect, but when their alternate choice is trying and getting fuck all again, they should have held on to him a bit more instead of just throwing him out at the first opportunity. It's just common sense.

Again, it's the execution of the betrayal. I find it difficult to believe they didn't try harder to keep him around.

Exactly

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

Thats why people followed him even though they don't trust him. People do the stupidest things when family members are in danger, but I wouldn't hold a grudge on that.

Stupidity is one thing, but that's just too stupid for words.

Let me put it to you this way, they can either continue to get fucked by Britannia or they can come crawling back to their "messiah" who fucked them over and would most likely fuck them over again. It's pretty much a no-win situation, but if I was in their shoes I'd probably just go down fighting and forget about Zero. I think it would be pretty disgraceful to seek the help of the man who humiliated me and my comrades by abandoning us.

[Aquaman OS]

Except then they were presented with the option to get Japan back by screwing over Zero. Thus they'd get what they wanted and not have to worry about relying on their unreliable Messiah for it. Sure it would involve screwing him over but as I mentioned he didn't particularly endear himself to them to the point where they'd go out of their way for him.

Thus it is somewhat easier to understand why they took that deal.

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Stupidity is one thing, but that's just too stupid for words.

Let me put it to you this way, they can either continue to get fucked by Britannia or they can come crawling back to their "messiah" who fucked them over and would most likely fuck them over again. It's pretty much a no-win situation, but if I was in their shoes I'd probably just go down fighting and forget about Zero. I think it would be pretty disgraceful to seek the help of the man who humiliated me and my comrades by abandoning us.

Except for the fact that they do not know why he left. For all they knew he could actually being doing them a favor by stopping some diabolical plan. Besides I'm sure Lelouch would have gone back to the Black Rebellion if it wasn't for Suzaku. He was definately thinking about his sister, but its is not like he was thinking screw Japan at the same time.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

Except for the fact that they do not know why he left. For all they knew he could actually being doing them a favor by stopping some diabolical plan. Besides I'm sure Lelouch would have gone back to the Black Rebellion if it wasn't for Suzaku. He was definately thinking about his sister, but its is not like he was thinking screw Japan at the same time.

So les'see, our leader abandons us in the middle of our greatest battle yet with no explanation at all, while our people are getting slaughtered by the truckload. Afterwards, we hear no word from him for a year and still no explanation for why he left us, and when we finally do find him he's apparently living it up in some school without a care in the world. Well, obviously, we should just speculate and assume he was stopping some diabolical plan for our benefit!

Oh, and of course he wasn't trying to stop a diabolical plan. You really think they're gonna buy the "I needed to save my sister" story?

"Aww, let me play you a song on the world's smallest violin before we crucify you AND your sister!"

[Aquaman OS]

He basically was. He blew the entire mission when he failed to capture Cornelia like he planned on (because Jeremiah showed up and when he was dealt with, he opted to leave and go find Nunnally rather than go back for her) and without that it was only a matter of time before the stronger Britannian forces beat back the BK without Cornelia as a hostage.

Now Lelouch might have been able to keep morale up had he spun a story and tried to keep on their good side. But instead he basically says "I had something more important to take care of, I'm not going to tell you what it was, deal with it" which only killed his support in the BK.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

He basically was. He blew the entire mission when he failed to capture Cornelia like he planned on (because Jeremiah showed up and when he was dealt with, he opted to leave and go find Nunnally rather than go back for her) and without that it was only a matter of time before the stronger Britannian forces beat back the BK without Cornelia as a hostage.

Now Lelouch might have been able to keep morale up had he spun a story and tried to keep on their good side. But instead he basically says "I had something more important to take care of, I'm not going to tell you what it was, deal with it" which only killed his support in the BK.

So you're agreeing with me? Fighthing a losing battle is no reason, NO REASON, to abandon your troops. In fact, that's all the more reason that you shouldn't abandon them. I see no reason why the BKs would want anything to do with him after that.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by azul120

He didn't really leave Xing-ke to the eunuchs, given that they were still allied. While there was some antagonization, and it could have been intentionally negative, it was at least somewhat necessary as part of a Xanatos Gambit to get the eunuchs to reveal their true nature, and then have the conversation broadcasted to the people.

The only clear blowback was Kallen getting captured, but that was also because she went into Leeroy Jenkins mode, and Suzaku was determined to have his way.

From my perspective, he very much did leave Xing-ke to the Eunuchs. He distracted their forces in the middle of an operation, allowed the Eunuchs time to recognize and respond to the threat, and stole the prize they were after (the Tianzi) with no explanation. I don't see how antagonizing Xing-ke was necessary. All he needed to do was open a channel with the Eunuchs at some point when he felt they were in a position to gloat about their disdain for the people.

It isn't entirely clear what Lelouch's original plan was, but it involved escaping from the palace and not having to engage any enemy forces beyond the initial pursuit (as implied by Zero's disbelief at their being attacked so soon by the Shen-Hu) and meeting up with a contingent from India. Ending up in the Tomb was a desperation tactic.

As for blowback, Xing-ke also killed several BK, forced them to forgo meeting up with their Indian allies, indirectly allowed Britannia to intervene, thus getting more BK killed.

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

So you're agreeing with me? Fighthing a losing battle is no reason, NO REASON, to abandon your troops. In fact, that's all the more reason that you shouldn't abandon them. I see no reason why the BKs would want anything to do with him after that.

I'm sure he was planning to come back after he rescues his sister. He did not completely abondon them.

[Aquaman OS]

You'd be wrong. He'd leave the BK to die if he had to choose them over Nunnally in a heart beat. So they should be satisfied that he'd help them only if it's convienient for him?

As it was he essentially doomed them by opting to go to Nunnally instead of capturing Cornelia, which in the long run cost them the battle.

And you can't work for someone who while a good leader, will without hesitation throw you to the wolves in order to persue a higher goal. You just can't trust someone like that.

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

You'd be wrong. He'd leave the BK to die if he had to choose them over Nunnally in a heart beat. So they should be satisfied that he'd help them only if it's convienient for him?

As it was he essentially doomed them by opting to go to Nunnally instead of capturing Cornelia, which in the long run cost them the battle.

And you can't work for someone who while a good leader, will without hesitation throw you to the wolves in order to persue a higher goal. You just can't trust someone like that.

If they don't like him that much then they shouldn't let him be leader. It is because they are so incompete that they had to put their faith in him. Who saved their butts in the beggining. It was Zero. Who saved Todoh when he was going to accept execution. It was Zero. Who was the one who gave them the chance to fight. It was Zero again. Lelouch always try to find a way to save both if he could. If he had to choose between his sister over the black knights he would choose his sister. But if there was any possiblity that he can save both he would pick the BOTH option. Like I said before I'm sure he would have returned if Suzaku didn't stop him, therefore, having control of the battle field again. Besides, if Nannuly is in the back of his mind all the time then his tatics would be stale which would end up causing the black knights losing in the Rebellion. Don't forget it was Ougi that left his position, therefore, having Nan. get captured causing Lelouch to leave. Ougi's girlfriend was more important than the black knights so I don't see why it is unreasonable for Lelouch to view his sister more important than the black knignts.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

If they don't like him that much then they shouldn't let him be leader. It is because they are so incompete that they had to put their faith in him. Who saved their butts in the beggining. It was Zero. Who saved Todoh when he was going to accept execution. It was Zero. Who was the one who gave them the chance to fight. It was Zero again. Lelouch always try to find a way to save both if he could. If he had to choose between his sister over the black knights he would choose his sister. But if there was any possiblity that he can save both he would pick the BOTH option. Like I said before I'm sure he would have returned if Suzaku didn't stop him, therefore, having control of the battle field again. Besides, if Nannuly is in the back of his mind all the time then his tatics would be stale which would end up causing the black knights losing in the Rebellion. Don't forget it was Ougi that left his position, therefore, having Nan. get captured causing Lelouch to leave. Ougi's girlfriend was more important than the black knights so I don't see why it is unreasonable for Lelouch to view his sister more important than the black knignts.

they put their faith in him because until THAT point he didn't indicate that he's teh sort of guy who'd betray them like he did.
the moment they find out who he really is, and what he's been responsible for, they turn against him in a second.

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

they put their faith in him because until THAT point he didn't indicate that he's teh sort of guy who'd betray them like he did.
the moment they find out who he really is, and what he's been responsible for, they turn against him in a second.

Its one thing to remove him from leadership, but it is another thing to just execute him right in the spot assuming if Schnizel keeps his promise of letting them keep Japan. If the Black Knights were pissed that he was responsible for all these massecures then I understand why they betrayed him. Unfortunately, I believe the Black Knights betrayed him because some people believe Todoh was better (Nagi, Asihina), Ougi's girlfriends words, believing Ougi as the better leader (Ougi's group), and Tamaki just being retared as usual.

Todoh out of the group seems like he had good reasons to turn against Lelouch.

[Laurcus]

The BKs had reasons to not trust Zero, that's for sure. That doesn't make the betrayal anymore believable. Trusting Schneizel to give them back Japan is just ridiculous. And I don't understand why they freaked out when they learned the truth about Zero anyway. Didn't they listen to a word he said in R2? How many times in R2 did Zero tell the BKs that he comits evil to destroy the greater evil? He always preached results, which is what they had. They were in a far better position than they ever were to defeat Britannia and get Japan back for real. Did they think he was joking when he said he comits evil, well what the hell did they expect lol? Knowing Schneizel's history they should have known not to trust him at all no matter what he says, even if it's true. It's like trusting the devil when he whispers sweet honey in your ears, it's just not a good idea.

[Kittenlady]

They weren't just trusting the devil, they were trusting the guy who just nuked Tokyo.

I just lost all willing suspension of disbelief at the betrayal. Normally this isn't an issue for me, since nothing else in the series bothered me like that, so that's saying a lot.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

But having two very different goals with a similar road to it, doesn't make a healthy trusting relationship.

If it was for a short time it might have worked out better, but Lelouch lead them for a good year all the while going behind their back and expecting them to just take it if it meant they might get what they want in the end. That doesn't always work, and when the truth was revealed it turns out they couldn't trust him enough to go out of their way for him, just like Lelouch wouldn't go out of his way for them early on. If it came down to them or Nunnally then he left them to their fate so it coming down to Japan or Zero and them ditching him is just desserts for his previous behavior.

It's outright absurd for people to think the Black Knights should be perfectly ok being 2nd priority to a useless blind girl.

Then again, he mostly got past it by putting Nunnally on the backburner in R2 7/8, and the Black Knights proved themselves to be just as fickle by practically abandoning their duty as UFN military force for the deal with Britannia for Japan. (Not to mention of course Ohgi almost bailing out for Villetta, who he knew wanted to kill him.)

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Except then they were presented with the option to get Japan back by screwing over Zero. Thus they'd get what they wanted and not have to worry about relying on their unreliable Messiah for it. Sure it would involve screwing him over but as I mentioned he didn't particularly endear himself to them to the point where they'd go out of their way for him.

Thus it is somewhat easier to understand why they took that deal.

Again, this made them hypocrites, because they were abandoning their OWN duties as military front of the UFN, and potentially leaving them, representing the rest of the world, at Britannia's mercy.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

So les'see, our leader abandons us in the middle of our greatest battle yet with no explanation at all, while our people are getting slaughtered by the truckload. Afterwards, we hear no word from him for a year and still no explanation for why he left us, and when we finally do find him he's apparently living it up in some school without a care in the world. Well, obviously, we should just speculate and assume he was stopping some diabolical plan for our benefit!

Oh, and of course he wasn't trying to stop a diabolical plan. You really think they're gonna buy the "I needed to save my sister" story?

"Aww, let me play you a song on the world's smallest violin before we crucify you AND your sister!"

Of course, this would have made Villetta either the world's biggest idiot or a Manipulative Bitch to not have told the truth here.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

He basically was. He blew the entire mission when he failed to capture Cornelia like he planned on (because Jeremiah showed up and when he was dealt with, he opted to leave and go find Nunnally rather than go back for her) and without that it was only a matter of time before the stronger Britannian forces beat back the BK without Cornelia as a hostage.

Now Lelouch might have been able to keep morale up had he spun a story and tried to keep on their good side. But instead he basically says "I had something more important to take care of, I'm not going to tell you what it was, deal with it" which only killed his support in the BK.

Except that Jeremiah came back from behind. Which begs the question, what would the chances for success be if Lelouch didn't abandon them, since Jeremiah had yet to be put in check?

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

You'd be wrong. He'd leave the BK to die if he had to choose them over Nunnally in a heart beat. So they should be satisfied that he'd help them only if it's convienient for him?

As it was he essentially doomed them by opting to go to Nunnally instead of capturing Cornelia, which in the long run cost them the battle.

And you can't work for someone who while a good leader, will without hesitation throw you to the wolves in order to persue a higher goal. You just can't trust someone like that.

Just because he abandoned them for Nunnally doesn't mean he would have left the battle for good afterwards.

Not to mention that Jeremiah appeared out of nowhere before he had a chance to take in Cornelia to begin with.

And again, he was all but done with abandoning everything for Nunnally from the earlier part of R2. All that was left was the shell shock of her apparent demise.

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by azul120

Just because he abandoned them for Nunnally doesn't mean he would have left the battle for good afterwards.


And again, he was all but done with abandoning everything for Nunnally from the earlier part of R2. All that was left was the shell shock of her apparent demise.

I practically agree with everything what Azul120 said especially the above quote I was trying to stress just because he temporary left the Black Knights for Nunnally doesn't mean he would leave the battle for good.

[Aquaman OS]

That still isn't acceptable. You can't leave people counting on you for a selfish personal reason even you might get around to getting back to them. If the star of a football team leaves in the middle of a game because his sister wants him for something his team will be pissed and he'd probably lose his position.

Especially in the battle field. Even in real life, if you are police or military you can't just go awol without explaination from an important job, even if a relative is in grave danger. You've got to clear it. If a military general abandoned his men to go mount a one man rescue for his daughter who's trapped in a well or something, he'd still be in serious trouble and get court martialed when he returned.


Fact is Nunnally meant nothing to the Black Knights. They would not be happy their leader proritized her live over their own. Unfortunately Lelouch's will was weak when Nunnally was concerned until R2 ep 23.

[azul120]

You're leaving out the episodes from R2 7 on, until R2 18/19.