2013-11-21, 18:22 | Link #33241 |
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Why do you think Ange's an INFJ? As an INFJ myself, I'm more than happy to share the personality type with her~ I've read that a broken INFJ can be one of the scarier personality types, and Ange certainly does have a lot of issues (though considering her past, she turned out much more functional than many people might have in her situation).
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2013-11-21, 20:01 | Link #33242 |
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Because young INFJs can be quite "magical" (to take umineko ideas) before reality hits them in the face. While the "strong" INFP Maria can continue to "dream" even when that happens, the INFJ tend to become drastically disenchanted with reality and can appear from an outside pov to be a thinker rather then a feeler (but really is on the verge of crying ^^;; ). That seems to describe Ange fairly well. Oh and she shifts between blaming Eva for everything, and blaming herself for everything related to Eva.
Well guess there's more INFJs then I thought, yeah we're prolly the only people who really cares about personality types to begin with. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2013-11-21 at 20:31. |
2013-11-21, 22:32 | Link #33244 |
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Well I guess I have a theory then.
Umineko is about an INFJ's hopes to create something new from the synthesis of fantasy and mystery, rather then their opposition. Fitting with INFJ's interests for both rational and spiritual things, and introverted intuition creating new possibilities from the synthesis of paradoxes. The first is fantasy, the second is mystery, this is the "third story" mentioned in "our confession". |
2013-11-22, 14:52 | Link #33245 |
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Eh, hm, I'm not too sure about some of those. Genji is practically the dictionary definition of "duty fulfiller", so giving him any type besides ISTJ is sort of stretching it. I don't know that I'd say any of the cast fit the bill for ISTP. I'd say that Kyrie is more INTJ than INTP, and I don't really see anything INTJ about Nanjo at all (though I'm not sure what type he'd fit better). If anyone in the cast is an INTP, I'd say it's Erika. I'd probably switch Rudolf and Hideyoshi too, or maybe even switch with Eva too (Eva being ENTJ, Hideyoshi ESTJ, Rudolf ESTP).
I'm definitely inclined to believe that Ange is much more an INFP than an INFJ. Her Fi is all over the place, really, it's pretty obvious. If I get the time I'll try to elaborate some more on this stuff later. (Side note: I highly doubt Ryukishi actually had the MBTI in mind while writing the characters, it's really just a fun thing to play with. I don't even know if it's well-known in Japan at all, and it's certainly stretching things to say that most of the Umineko cast are 'textbook definitions' of any MBTI type.) |
2013-11-23, 08:20 | Link #33246 | |
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Okay, I have more to say on this.
First, I think that for some characters, such as Kumasawa and Nanjo, we simply don't know enough about them to type them with any real certainty. Sure we know how they act, but I don't know that we have much of an insight into what motivates them or how they think. Honestly their characterisation is one of the weakest points of Umineko for me, because considering what a huge role they played in covering up Kinzo's various creepy pursuits, we still don't really have any idea why. Even if Genji is boring, we at least get the picture that he's an extremely loyal person (which is why I think we can confidently type him as ISTJ), but for the other two I honestly don't even know. Second, I'm hesitant towards the "slot the 16 humans into the 16 types" idea because while it would be very nice and orderly if it turned out that way, it can also lead to people not getting assigned types that would fit them better just because someone else already has them. For example, I'd agree that Jessica is an ESFP, but I'd also say that Gohda is definitely one too; it's very obviously apparent that he's a "performer" and it's also plain to see that he's very much of the SP temperament. Natsuhi and Genji both fitting for ISTJ is another example of this. On Maria and Ange, I'd actually say it's more likely that Maria is INFJ and Ange is INFP, rather than the other way round. Quote:
Mostly I'd type Ange as INFP because her attitude to people is very much based on how they make her feel (Fi dom), while INFJs are generally much more inclined to try and understand other people and look at things from other perspectives (Fe aux). Ange wants Eva to be the culprit because she doesn't like her, pretty much. That's pretty much the classic way for an unhealthy INFP to act. Also, you say that Ange doesn't continue to "dream" after being broken, but can you really say that when she's still spending all her spare time escaping into the wonderland of Maria's diary long after she already lost her family? She's pretty clearly a dreamer at heart, I think. But I agree that it is difficult to judge. On the adults...The reason I think Kyrie fits INTJ better than INTP is simply because she's so driven. She latched on to a single goal (having Rudolf to herself) and obsessively fixated over that for 18 years. INTPs have a reputation for being absent-minded and distractable, moving from one thing to another, where Kyrie has a very clear sense of focus and sharpness to her that is more in line with the INTJ "mastermind" stereotype. Her style of reasoning is also very cold, calculating, and result-orientated (Ni-Te), where INTPs tend to go off on tangents and be more focused on reasoning for the sake of intellectual satisfaction rather than necessarily trying to reach a particular goal (Ti-Ne). That's why I'd say that Erika is a much more likely fit for the INTP type. Rudolf is very much of the SP temperament; not really sure why you're typing him as NT. He's primarily concerned with enjoying life and satisfying himself, and most of the time he doesn't really care about anything outside of that. And really, just read any ESTP description and you should be able to see that it fits him like a glove. I can't see him as any other type. Hideyoshi, on the other hand, is very much concerned with security and stability, both in his family and in his business, and should therefore be fit into the SJ temperament. ESTJ fits pretty well, I think. Whereas Eva is a very ambitious and driven person, who's never quite satisfied with her current position and almost automatically tries to maneuver things to give her family an advantage in whatever situation she finds herself. That would lead me to type her as ENTJ over ESTJ. Hideyoshi is content with keeping what he has safe, while Eva is very visionary and always focused on improving things, increasing her own standing and that of her family. I think that's pretty much all I have to comment on at this point. I might also be inclined to type George as a Fi type (INFP or ISFP) because he seems to believe in the sanctity of his own feelings over pretty much all else, but he does also show SJ characteristics, so I'm kind of ambivalent there. Everything else I more or less agree with. |
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2013-11-25, 07:33 | Link #33247 |
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Uuuuh sorry but I can't agree with most of what you wrote. Let's leave it at that I guess, that it seems we don't see personality types in the same way at all, considering the people I know who are actually of these particular personalities - tho I do think I got some of them wrong.
George is nothing alike an ISFP and even less INFP. |
2013-11-25, 12:02 | Link #33248 | |
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I do have to wonder how the MBTI suddenly got so much attention on the internet anyway, considering that it's a model that has been severely criticized and severely shows its age. On two matters more related to the content of the series, thanks to jjblue I got at least some scans of the chapters currently only released in magazine form, until I get my copies of the GanGan-Joker from October to December. First of, two pages I was unsure what they meant when trying to decipher the Chinese scans of chapter 20. Spoiler for Further EP5 solution from the manga:
But also to return to the question of what was hinted before it's reveal and what not. I reread EP5 and 6 as manga as well, and I can't check if this was in the VN, but something sprung out to me. When Chick-Beato complains about the love duel Elder Beato, Zepar, and Furfur give her an explanation and it goes like this: Furfur: Does the social status of two lovers really not matter at all?! For example, does a man who already has a wife have the right to love another woman? Elder-Beato: Of course not! If he loves two, then his feelings do not mount up to a whole feeling for one. A man like this has no right towards love. Furfur: Furthermore, hear us out!! Can you allow love to a married man!? Can you allow love to a married woman!? Falling in love with ones parent!? Can you possibly allow falling in love with ones child!? You see? There is a multitude of people or social positions that do not have the right to love another! I think this example should clear up whether it is intended that Yasu was born out of incest or not... |
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2013-11-25, 14:44 | Link #33249 | |
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There's no problem if you really look at things a different way, but if so then I'd be kind of interested in trying to figure out how our perspectives differ and in learning more about your personal approach. It seems a little abrupt to just say "Oh, we don't think the same way, so there's no point talking any more". I don't know about you, but I'm under the impression that INFJs are generally really interested in figuring out how other people think and finding new ways to look at things, so I didn't really expect that kind of defensive reaction. I'm perfectly happy for you to question my type choices and to tell me why, but if you're not even going to give reasons then I really can't engage you on any level because I have no idea what basis you're working from. |
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2013-11-25, 17:28 | Link #33250 | |
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I mean it's either that or the entire Love Duel is a sham because Yasu wouldn't have the "right" to love any of them, so all the outcomes would be fraudulent. Which would certainly be a valid interpretation for Yasu to come to, but at the same time, what's the point of that part of ep6 then?
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2013-11-25, 22:49 | Link #33253 | |
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I mean I'm not saying this is something she can't do, I'm just saying justifying one but categorically rejecting another is... odd. Plenty of married couples fall out of love, why couldn't you love someone else who is married? It's a very odd interpretation. I'll ignore that it's also completely overlooking a half-dozen other forms of love, because obviously Yasu is focused on one type in particular. But in that case... you'd think the rules would have to be pretty relaxed from the start to include "my cousin/nephew, my other cousin/nephew, and my cousin/niece/best friend I'm pretending to be a boy around." If you can go to that level of deception, sneaking around behind your wife's back with someone you "truly" love can't be that unimaginable. Hell, are Zepar and Furfur saying Bice and Kinzo didn't have a right to love? He was married, with kids... yet ep7 portrays that as true love, and it's sort of the root cause of the entire problem Yasu finds herself in to begin with.
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2013-11-26, 01:34 | Link #33254 | |
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Yes, her interpretation of romantic love seems to be that there is supposed to be only one person you love, but don't most of us hold that? Nowhere does it say that they cannot DEVELOP (恋する事が出来ない) love for a married person, or ones child or parent, what it's saying is that this love is not to be ALLOWED (許されない). And yes, for Yasu it was apparently the greatest kind of deception that Kinzo was married; not only to his wife but also to Bice, because he could never devote himself to either completely. And this is also why she says that neither Beatrice, nor Shannon, nor Kanon have the right to love, because they are an incomplete soul, which is translatable into "they are an incomplete love." It's not only the role they have to kill in that duel, it's the emotion that gave birth to that role being more than a role that has to be killed. Last edited by haguruma; 2013-11-26 at 03:00. |
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2013-11-26, 18:09 | Link #33255 | ||
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You can't solve the 6th game using the 7th. Quote:
Umineko is solvable within ep 1-4, if not ep 1 is enough. |
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2013-11-26, 18:41 | Link #33256 | |
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I say this partly because we know Jessica was into dressing up, and it seems neater if Jessica was actually helping Yasu with her costumes the whole time. |
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2013-11-26, 18:51 | Link #33257 | |||||||
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Spoiler for Further EP5 solution from the manga:
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From what I know if they were merely their cousins she would be allowed to love them... but as she's also their aunt this isn't allowed anymore. As soon as Yasu finds the gold and learn the truth on herself she not only learn of her tragic backstory and how she's incapable of love but also that her love is forbidden. So either Yasu planned to accept... let's say George's love as he's the one that win the duel but deny her true identity, basically killing her Lion's side... or her Beatrice's side if you prefer, as Beatrice also represent Kinzo's heir and child or she never planned to have Shannon's love truly win. Her miracle of love would be for her to get George to declare his love to her and then she and Kanon would disappear (which can also fit with how something mysterious should happen anyway even if Battler hadn't returned). Quote:
It's EP 7 that's not written by her that tried to justify Kinzo in his love for Bice and for Beatrice and also sugarcoated things as later on we'll learn Kinzo might have been among the ones or the one who caused Japanese and Italians to clash and that went after his daughter even if the poor thing didn't return his feelings. The part with Kinzo's story is very... pro Kinzo. We've to understand Kinzo's heart so the fact that Kinzo's cheating is wife and is a poor father for his kids is often overlooked and even if it's said that Beato was unwilling... well, there's so much ranting about how we should understand Kinzo it's almost as if Ep 7 tries to make us think Kinzo after all couldn't help it. Beato's situation is pretty much glossed over with 'oh we don't approve of what Kinzo did' and 'oh I was sorry for what I did but I tried not to so forgive me? I just want to say sorry...' Quote:
There's to say that if we consider Yasu's background what she wanted the most was to be loved. Clair said more than once that everywhere she is, with whoever she is it's fine as long as she's loved. So in a way to say Yasu's an incomplete soul can also refer to this. She's so starved for love she'll hunt every scrap she can get, instead than feeling fulfilled with just pursuing one. Quote:
And we know right from Ep 1 that a person can own multiple names. Shannon informs us in EP 1 that she has another name, not just Shannon. Jessica also says she's Jessie in EP 2. And we know that for a time Battler stopped being Battler Ushiromiya. So yes, the fact that a person can own multiple names shouldn't really come as something new to us. Quote:
Ep 1 is solvable with a Shannon/Kanon culprit theory. The fact that after the following developments of the game people discovered Shannon's old nick was Yasu and began to use this nick when referring to the culprit is merely additional explanation. It doesn't invalidate the Shannon/Kanon culprit theory. |
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2013-11-27, 05:38 | Link #33258 | ||
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We have the names Shannon, Kanon and Jessica told in red. But we don't have any red about them having any other names, so that can just be a lie. Red calls Jessica Jessica, Shannon Shannon and Kanon Kanon. The red tells only one name of each other, so even if we have white text, that stated otherwise, it can be, or even is a lie. Even though Kinzo was dead, proclaned in red, he still "was living" in EP5. If there is red truth about a statement, everything otherwise is a lie, even if it is implied with white text afterwise. Same goes with ep 7, where there is a general statement in red about servants, and then we get a whole episode about a servant being the culprit. It's like: Quote:
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2013-11-27, 07:01 | Link #33259 | |
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You know, the existence of "Beatrice" has been foreshadowed in every game multiple times. In the murder case that is also the title of the murderer. So while the murderer's 'real identity' is "Beatrice, The Ushiromiya family's Alchemist, the Golden Witch and the 2nd Master of Rokkenjima", the names "Shannon" and "Kanon" are just aliases. I got a nice quote for that:
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Also about red truth: If there is one thing that Umineko conveyed right, then it is the endless possibilities of twisting words. So if you claim once something is said in red, the opposite is impossible, then I claim the opposite and construct such a supposed "contradiction": 1. The red truth "Battler is dead" is false. However: 2. The red truth "Battler is dead" is true. "1." uses the interpretation that Battler's physical body lives on as Hachijou Tohya. "2." uses the interpretation that no one (that is part of the story) identifies themselves as "Battler" at the time of that statement and as we know in the language of the witches' battle, "dead" can refer to the psychological view instead of the physical one. Another possible interpretation is that "Battler" refers to Asumu's stillborn child that most likely had the same name.
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2013-11-27, 07:07 | Link #33260 | |
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.........My entire family...never came home from Rokkenjima that day...!! This game will not have a happy ending. |
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