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Old 2013-11-21, 18:22   Link #33241
Dr. Casey
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Why do you think Ange's an INFJ? As an INFJ myself, I'm more than happy to share the personality type with her~ I've read that a broken INFJ can be one of the scarier personality types, and Ange certainly does have a lot of issues (though considering her past, she turned out much more functional than many people might have in her situation).
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Old 2013-11-21, 20:01   Link #33242
UsagiTenpura
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Because young INFJs can be quite "magical" (to take umineko ideas) before reality hits them in the face. While the "strong" INFP Maria can continue to "dream" even when that happens, the INFJ tend to become drastically disenchanted with reality and can appear from an outside pov to be a thinker rather then a feeler (but really is on the verge of crying ^^;; ). That seems to describe Ange fairly well. Oh and she shifts between blaming Eva for everything, and blaming herself for everything related to Eva.

Well guess there's more INFJs then I thought, yeah we're prolly the only people who really cares about personality types to begin with.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2013-11-21 at 20:31.
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Old 2013-11-21, 21:10   Link #33243
DaBackpack
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I'm INFJ too >.>;;

I think Ange falls in this pool, at least. Yasu too... which is scary...
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Old 2013-11-21, 22:32   Link #33244
UsagiTenpura
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Well I guess I have a theory then.
Umineko is about an INFJ's hopes to create something new from the synthesis of fantasy and mystery, rather then their opposition. Fitting with INFJ's interests for both rational and spiritual things, and introverted intuition creating new possibilities from the synthesis of paradoxes.
The first is fantasy, the second is mystery, this is the "third story" mentioned in "our confession".
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Old 2013-11-22, 14:52   Link #33245
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Eh, hm, I'm not too sure about some of those. Genji is practically the dictionary definition of "duty fulfiller", so giving him any type besides ISTJ is sort of stretching it. I don't know that I'd say any of the cast fit the bill for ISTP. I'd say that Kyrie is more INTJ than INTP, and I don't really see anything INTJ about Nanjo at all (though I'm not sure what type he'd fit better). If anyone in the cast is an INTP, I'd say it's Erika. I'd probably switch Rudolf and Hideyoshi too, or maybe even switch with Eva too (Eva being ENTJ, Hideyoshi ESTJ, Rudolf ESTP).

I'm definitely inclined to believe that Ange is much more an INFP than an INFJ. Her Fi is all over the place, really, it's pretty obvious. If I get the time I'll try to elaborate some more on this stuff later.

(Side note: I highly doubt Ryukishi actually had the MBTI in mind while writing the characters, it's really just a fun thing to play with. I don't even know if it's well-known in Japan at all, and it's certainly stretching things to say that most of the Umineko cast are 'textbook definitions' of any MBTI type.)
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Old 2013-11-23, 08:20   Link #33246
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Okay, I have more to say on this.

First, I think that for some characters, such as Kumasawa and Nanjo, we simply don't know enough about them to type them with any real certainty. Sure we know how they act, but I don't know that we have much of an insight into what motivates them or how they think. Honestly their characterisation is one of the weakest points of Umineko for me, because considering what a huge role they played in covering up Kinzo's various creepy pursuits, we still don't really have any idea why. Even if Genji is boring, we at least get the picture that he's an extremely loyal person (which is why I think we can confidently type him as ISTJ), but for the other two I honestly don't even know.

Second, I'm hesitant towards the "slot the 16 humans into the 16 types" idea because while it would be very nice and orderly if it turned out that way, it can also lead to people not getting assigned types that would fit them better just because someone else already has them. For example, I'd agree that Jessica is an ESFP, but I'd also say that Gohda is definitely one too; it's very obviously apparent that he's a "performer" and it's also plain to see that he's very much of the SP temperament. Natsuhi and Genji both fitting for ISTJ is another example of this.

On Maria and Ange, I'd actually say it's more likely that Maria is INFJ and Ange is INFP, rather than the other way round.

Quote:
Because young INFJs can be quite "magical" (to take umineko ideas) before reality hits them in the face. While the "strong" INFP Maria can continue to "dream" even when that happens, the INFJ tend to become drastically disenchanted with reality and can appear from an outside pov to be a thinker rather then a feeler (but really is on the verge of crying ^^;; ).
Let's just try examining this from a different angle. I think the scene where Maria goes crying to Beatrice about Sakutaro being dead and asks why her magic can't bring him back, refusing to accept any excuses, is a pretty classic INFJ "breaking" moment of the type that you're talking about. We're also told by Ange that the tone of Maria's diary got a lot darker and more twisted since that part. I think it's pretty common for INFJs to break internally and keep it locked inside themselves like that, while INFPs would tend to become depressed in a more obviously apparent way. Which is exactly what happens to Ange, funnily enough. But yes, I think it's difficult to type Maria because for one thing she's still really young and not fully developed yet, and for another, she also seems to have some form of autism and I think her character is probably more built around that than any particular MBTI type.

Mostly I'd type Ange as INFP because her attitude to people is very much based on how they make her feel (Fi dom), while INFJs are generally much more inclined to try and understand other people and look at things from other perspectives (Fe aux). Ange wants Eva to be the culprit because she doesn't like her, pretty much. That's pretty much the classic way for an unhealthy INFP to act. Also, you say that Ange doesn't continue to "dream" after being broken, but can you really say that when she's still spending all her spare time escaping into the wonderland of Maria's diary long after she already lost her family? She's pretty clearly a dreamer at heart, I think. But I agree that it is difficult to judge.

On the adults...The reason I think Kyrie fits INTJ better than INTP is simply because she's so driven. She latched on to a single goal (having Rudolf to herself) and obsessively fixated over that for 18 years. INTPs have a reputation for being absent-minded and distractable, moving from one thing to another, where Kyrie has a very clear sense of focus and sharpness to her that is more in line with the INTJ "mastermind" stereotype. Her style of reasoning is also very cold, calculating, and result-orientated (Ni-Te), where INTPs tend to go off on tangents and be more focused on reasoning for the sake of intellectual satisfaction rather than necessarily trying to reach a particular goal (Ti-Ne). That's why I'd say that Erika is a much more likely fit for the INTP type.

Rudolf is very much of the SP temperament; not really sure why you're typing him as NT. He's primarily concerned with enjoying life and satisfying himself, and most of the time he doesn't really care about anything outside of that. And really, just read any ESTP description and you should be able to see that it fits him like a glove. I can't see him as any other type.

Hideyoshi, on the other hand, is very much concerned with security and stability, both in his family and in his business, and should therefore be fit into the SJ temperament. ESTJ fits pretty well, I think. Whereas Eva is a very ambitious and driven person, who's never quite satisfied with her current position and almost automatically tries to maneuver things to give her family an advantage in whatever situation she finds herself. That would lead me to type her as ENTJ over ESTJ. Hideyoshi is content with keeping what he has safe, while Eva is very visionary and always focused on improving things, increasing her own standing and that of her family.

I think that's pretty much all I have to comment on at this point. I might also be inclined to type George as a Fi type (INFP or ISFP) because he seems to believe in the sanctity of his own feelings over pretty much all else, but he does also show SJ characteristics, so I'm kind of ambivalent there. Everything else I more or less agree with.
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Old 2013-11-25, 07:33   Link #33247
UsagiTenpura
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Uuuuh sorry but I can't agree with most of what you wrote. Let's leave it at that I guess, that it seems we don't see personality types in the same way at all, considering the people I know who are actually of these particular personalities - tho I do think I got some of them wrong.
George is nothing alike an ISFP and even less INFP.
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Old 2013-11-25, 12:02   Link #33248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
(Side note: I highly doubt Ryukishi actually had the MBTI in mind while writing the characters, it's really just a fun thing to play with. I don't even know if it's well-known in Japan at all, and it's certainly stretching things to say that most of the Umineko cast are 'textbook definitions' of any MBTI type.)
While the MBTI is not unknown in Japan, and due to Jung's fame among Japanese writers me not being surprised if it did turn up, I doubt if this was actually an inspiration.
I do have to wonder how the MBTI suddenly got so much attention on the internet anyway, considering that it's a model that has been severely criticized and severely shows its age.

On two matters more related to the content of the series, thanks to jjblue I got at least some scans of the chapters currently only released in magazine form, until I get my copies of the GanGan-Joker from October to December.
First of, two pages I was unsure what they meant when trying to decipher the Chinese scans of chapter 20.
Spoiler for Further EP5 solution from the manga:


But also to return to the question of what was hinted before it's reveal and what not. I reread EP5 and 6 as manga as well, and I can't check if this was in the VN, but something sprung out to me.
When Chick-Beato complains about the love duel Elder Beato, Zepar, and Furfur give her an explanation and it goes like this:
Furfur: Does the social status of two lovers really not matter at all?!
For example, does a man who already has a wife have the right to love another woman?
Elder-Beato: Of course not!
If he loves two, then his feelings do not mount up to a whole feeling for one.
A man like this has no right towards love.

Furfur: Furthermore, hear us out!!
Can you allow love to a married man!?
Can you allow love to a married woman!?
Falling in love with ones parent!?
Can you possibly allow falling in love with ones child!?

You see? There is a multitude of people or social positions that do not have the right to love another!


I think this example should clear up whether it is intended that Yasu was born out of incest or not...
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Old 2013-11-25, 14:44   Link #33249
Drifloon
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Uuuuh sorry but I can't agree with most of what you wrote. Let's leave it at that I guess, that it seems we don't see personality types in the same way at all, considering the people I know who are actually of these particular personalities - tho I do think I got some of them wrong.
George is nothing alike an ISFP and even less INFP.
Um, well, okay? It's not like I'm particularly married to all of the typings I suggested there, I mostly just wanted to bring out some points to prompt some discussion and maybe get some explanations of your reasons for going with some of the types that you did. It's perfectly fine if you disagree; disagreements are what makes the whole exercise interesting in the first place, because they trigger us to share differing perspectives on a particular character and to try examining them from perspectives we wouldn't have thought to before. I'll admit I'm a little put out by your putting up a list without giving any particular reasoning behind it and then closing the discussion as soon as someone questions it.

There's no problem if you really look at things a different way, but if so then I'd be kind of interested in trying to figure out how our perspectives differ and in learning more about your personal approach. It seems a little abrupt to just say "Oh, we don't think the same way, so there's no point talking any more". I don't know about you, but I'm under the impression that INFJs are generally really interested in figuring out how other people think and finding new ways to look at things, so I didn't really expect that kind of defensive reaction. I'm perfectly happy for you to question my type choices and to tell me why, but if you're not even going to give reasons then I really can't engage you on any level because I have no idea what basis you're working from.
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Old 2013-11-25, 17:28   Link #33250
Renall
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
But also to return to the question of what was hinted before it's reveal and what not. I reread EP5 and 6 as manga as well, and I can't check if this was in the VN, but something sprung out to me.
When Chick-Beato complains about the love duel Elder Beato, Zepar, and Furfur give her an explanation and it goes like this:
Furfur: Does the social status of two lovers really not matter at all?!
For example, does a man who already has a wife have the right to love another woman?
Elder-Beato: Of course not!
If he loves two, then his feelings do not mount up to a whole feeling for one.
A man like this has no right towards love.

Furfur: Furthermore, hear us out!!
Can you allow love to a married man!?
Can you allow love to a married woman!?
Falling in love with ones parent!?
Can you possibly allow falling in love with ones child!?

You see? There is a multitude of people or social positions that do not have the right to love another!


I think this example should clear up whether it is intended that Yasu was born out of incest or not...
So you definitely don't have the right to love somebody else's spouse, and a parent and child definitely can't love (at least, in the manner they're discussing). But loving your niece/nephew-cousin? Totally cool.

I mean it's either that or the entire Love Duel is a sham because Yasu wouldn't have the "right" to love any of them, so all the outcomes would be fraudulent. Which would certainly be a valid interpretation for Yasu to come to, but at the same time, what's the point of that part of ep6 then?
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Old 2013-11-25, 18:13   Link #33251
Drifloon
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Well, cousins can marry in Japan, right? So they have 'the right to love', I guess.
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Old 2013-11-25, 20:30   Link #33252
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Nanjo fathered Beatrice II and Genji begat Yasu. I think that is clearly what episode 6 is trying to tell us.
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Old 2013-11-25, 22:49   Link #33253
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Well, cousins can marry in Japan, right? So they have 'the right to love', I guess.
That seems a bit arbitrary to me. Also: Still also their aunt/uncle.

I mean I'm not saying this is something she can't do, I'm just saying justifying one but categorically rejecting another is... odd. Plenty of married couples fall out of love, why couldn't you love someone else who is married? It's a very odd interpretation.

I'll ignore that it's also completely overlooking a half-dozen other forms of love, because obviously Yasu is focused on one type in particular. But in that case... you'd think the rules would have to be pretty relaxed from the start to include "my cousin/nephew, my other cousin/nephew, and my cousin/niece/best friend I'm pretending to be a boy around." If you can go to that level of deception, sneaking around behind your wife's back with someone you "truly" love can't be that unimaginable.

Hell, are Zepar and Furfur saying Bice and Kinzo didn't have a right to love? He was married, with kids... yet ep7 portrays that as true love, and it's sort of the root cause of the entire problem Yasu finds herself in to begin with.
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Old 2013-11-26, 01:34   Link #33254
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That seems a bit arbitrary to me. Also: Still also their aunt/uncle.

I mean I'm not saying this is something she can't do, I'm just saying justifying one but categorically rejecting another is... odd. Plenty of married couples fall out of love, why couldn't you love someone else who is married? It's a very odd interpretation.

I'll ignore that it's also completely overlooking a half-dozen other forms of love, because obviously Yasu is focused on one type in particular. But in that case... you'd think the rules would have to be pretty relaxed from the start to include "my cousin/nephew, my other cousin/nephew, and my cousin/niece/best friend I'm pretending to be a boy around." If you can go to that level of deception, sneaking around behind your wife's back with someone you "truly" love can't be that unimaginable.

Hell, are Zepar and Furfur saying Bice and Kinzo didn't have a right to love? He was married, with kids... yet ep7 portrays that as true love, and it's sort of the root cause of the entire problem Yasu finds herself in to begin with.
I think the point that was to be made there was that the love duel was necessary because, in the state Yasu was in herself, she didn't have any right to call her feelings love (in her own interpretation). Because she loves 3 people her love is incomplete, it doesn't amount to one complete love for one person but simply one love stretched over three.
Yes, her interpretation of romantic love seems to be that there is supposed to be only one person you love, but don't most of us hold that? Nowhere does it say that they cannot DEVELOP (恋する事が出来ない) love for a married person, or ones child or parent, what it's saying is that this love is not to be ALLOWED (許されない).

And yes, for Yasu it was apparently the greatest kind of deception that Kinzo was married; not only to his wife but also to Bice, because he could never devote himself to either completely.
And this is also why she says that neither Beatrice, nor Shannon, nor Kanon have the right to love, because they are an incomplete soul, which is translatable into "they are an incomplete love." It's not only the role they have to kill in that duel, it's the emotion that gave birth to that role being more than a role that has to be killed.

Last edited by haguruma; 2013-11-26 at 03:00.
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Old 2013-11-26, 18:09   Link #33255
jTiKey
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, the canon solution of Umineko doesn't go against this. It just says that a person owned multiple names. In fact all the names owned by the culprit are:
Lion Ushiromiya
Yasuda Sayo
Shannon
Yasu
Kanon
Yoshiya
Beatrice
Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!!.

You can't solve the 6th game using the 7th.

Quote:
Uhm... maybe I've misunderstood you but Yasu showed up early in the series. Yasu's just Shannon's old nick and Shannon appeared early in the series. The fact many refer to her as Yasu is just because to make thing simpler 'Shannon' is the name used to refer to her maid persona.
No person named Yasu or any connection wasn't implied in ep 1-6.

Umineko is solvable within ep 1-4, if not ep 1 is enough.
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Old 2013-11-26, 18:41   Link #33256
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
and my cousin/niece/best friend I'm pretending to be a boy around." If you can go to that level of deception, sneaking around behind your wife's back with someone you "truly" love can't be that unimaginable.
It seems unlikely that Yasu would be able to pull that kind of trick on Jessica. It makes more sense to me if Yasu created the Kanon persona so Jessica could pretend she had a boyfriend (and Jessica was aware of this), and then it came to symbolize her feelings for Jessica.

I say this partly because we know Jessica was into dressing up, and it seems neater if Jessica was actually helping Yasu with her costumes the whole time.
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Old 2013-11-26, 18:51   Link #33257
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
On two matters more related to the content of the series, thanks to jjblue I got at least some scans of the chapters currently only released in magazine form, until I get my copies of the GanGan-Joker from October to December.
First of, two pages I was unsure what they meant when trying to decipher the Chinese scans of chapter 20.
Thank you a lot for translating them! I only wish I had found the full chapter and not just some pages...

Spoiler for Further EP5 solution from the manga:


Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
But also to return to the question of what was hinted before it's reveal and what not. I reread EP5 and 6 as manga as well, and I can't check if this was in the VN, but something sprung out to me.
When Chick-Beato complains about the love duel Elder Beato, Zepar, and Furfur give her an explanation and it goes like this:
Furfur: Does the social status of two lovers really not matter at all?!
For example, does a man who already has a wife have the right to love another woman?
Elder-Beato: Of course not!
If he loves two, then his feelings do not mount up to a whole feeling for one.
A man like this has no right towards love.

Furfur: Furthermore, hear us out!!
Can you allow love to a married man!?
Can you allow love to a married woman!?
Falling in love with ones parent!?
Can you possibly allow falling in love with ones child!?

You see? There is a multitude of people or social positions that do not have the right to love another!


I think this example should clear up whether it is intended that Yasu was born out of incest or not...
The scene is also in the novel
Quote:
"That's insane! Status has nothing to do with it if both of them love each other!!"

""No, it does!!""

"Do you really think that the status of a pair of lovers doesn't matter?!"
"Is a man who has a wife allowed to love someone else? Is a woman who has a husband allowed to love someone else?"
"Are you allowed to fall in love with your parents? Are you allowed to fall in love with your children? There are many situations where status makes love unallowable!!"

"Th, then just what is furniture?!! Why mustn't furniture fall in love?!!!"
"Because they don't possess a full soul!""

"Shannon, Kanon, and the piece version of you as well!!"
"All of you are furniture! Subhuman beings who do not possess a complete soul!!"

"There is only one thing necessary to love a human! That is the possession of a complete soul!! That's why a pair in love can create a world!!"
"For example, do you think a man with a wife has the right to love another woman?"

".........Of course not. If he loved two women, neither would get a full person's worth of love. ......A man such as that would be unworthy of love."
"See? There are plenty of statuses and humans who have no right to love a person!! As long as both people feel love, nothing else matters? That's just the hypocrisy of naive love!!"

"We cannot forgive humans who falsely pretend that they have the right to love!! We cannot forgive the love of subhuman beings, of those do not make up the minimum number of people to create a world!!"

""That is the purpose of our trial...!! It is to let the sinful souls regain a complete soul and become capable of true love!!""
While from a side I think it remarks the fact that Yasu must pick up on someone and Kinzo's sin in a way it can also hint to another of Yasu's problems. What Kinzo did is also a sin because it made Yasu's love for one of the cousins a sin.
From what I know if they were merely their cousins she would be allowed to love them... but as she's also their aunt this isn't allowed anymore.

As soon as Yasu finds the gold and learn the truth on herself she not only learn of her tragic backstory and how she's incapable of love but also that her love is forbidden.
So either Yasu planned to accept... let's say George's love as he's the one that win the duel but deny her true identity, basically killing her Lion's side... or her Beatrice's side if you prefer, as Beatrice also represent Kinzo's heir and child or she never planned to have Shannon's love truly win.
Her miracle of love would be for her to get George to declare his love to her and then she and Kanon would disappear (which can also fit with how something mysterious should happen anyway even if Battler hadn't returned).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That seems a bit arbitrary to me. Also: Still also their aunt/uncle.

I mean I'm not saying this is something she can't do, I'm just saying justifying one but categorically rejecting another is... odd. Plenty of married couples fall out of love, why couldn't you love someone else who is married? It's a very odd interpretation.

I'll ignore that it's also completely overlooking a half-dozen other forms of love, because obviously Yasu is focused on one type in particular. But in that case... you'd think the rules would have to be pretty relaxed from the start to include "my cousin/nephew, my other cousin/nephew, and my cousin/niece/best friend I'm pretending to be a boy around." If you can go to that level of deception, sneaking around behind your wife's back with someone you "truly" love can't be that unimaginable.

Hell, are Zepar and Furfur saying Bice and Kinzo didn't have a right to love? He was married, with kids... yet ep7 portrays that as true love, and it's sort of the root cause of the entire problem Yasu finds herself in to begin with.
Well, in Beatrice's games Kinzo's love for her was never portrayed as something good. He was a man obsessed with her that stalked her, forced her to commit suicide, trapped her in a cage of flesh again so to escape she had to die again.

It's EP 7 that's not written by her that tried to justify Kinzo in his love for Bice and for Beatrice and also sugarcoated things as later on we'll learn Kinzo might have been among the ones or the one who caused Japanese and Italians to clash and that went after his daughter even if the poor thing didn't return his feelings.

The part with Kinzo's story is very... pro Kinzo. We've to understand Kinzo's heart so the fact that Kinzo's cheating is wife and is a poor father for his kids is often overlooked and even if it's said that Beato was unwilling... well, there's so much ranting about how we should understand Kinzo it's almost as if Ep 7 tries to make us think Kinzo after all couldn't help it.

Beato's situation is pretty much glossed over with 'oh we don't approve of what Kinzo did' and 'oh I was sorry for what I did but I tried not to so forgive me? I just want to say sorry...'

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think the point that was to be made there was that the love duel was necessary because, in the state Yasu was in herself, she didn't have any right to call her feelings love (in her own interpretation). Because she loves 3 people her love is incomplete, it doesn't amount to one complete love for one person but simply one love stretched over three.
Yes, her interpretation of romantic love seems to be that there is supposed to be only one person you love, but don't most of us hold that? Nowhere does it say that they cannot DEVELOP (恋する事が出来ない) love for a married person, or ones child or parent, what it's saying is that this love is not to be ALLOWED (許されない).

And yes, for Yasu it was apparently the greatest kind of deception that Kinzo was married; not only to his wife but also to Bice, because he could never devote himself to either completely.
And this is also why she says that neither Beatrice, nor Shannon, nor Kanon have the right to love, because they are an incomplete soul, which is translatable into "they are an incomplete love." It's not only the role they have to kill in that duel, it's the emotion that gave birth to that role being more than a role that has to be killed.
In a way I like the love duel. I never liked much the idea that in the golden land it would be okay for the 3 parts of Yasu to have 3 different love stories because well, yes, Yasu in truth it's only 1 person and she should choose.

There's to say that if we consider Yasu's background what she wanted the most was to be loved. Clair said more than once that everywhere she is, with whoever she is it's fine as long as she's loved.

So in a way to say Yasu's an incomplete soul can also refer to this. She's so starved for love she'll hunt every scrap she can get, instead than feeling fulfilled with just pursuing one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!!.

You can't solve the 6th game using the 7th.
The existence of Kinzo's child was implied prior to game 6. We didn't know which was his name but we knew he existed.
And we know right from Ep 1 that a person can own multiple names. Shannon informs us in EP 1 that she has another name, not just Shannon. Jessica also says she's Jessie in EP 2. And we know that for a time Battler stopped being Battler Ushiromiya. So yes, the fact that a person can own multiple names shouldn't really come as something new to us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
No person named Yasu or any connection wasn't implied in ep 1-6.

Umineko is solvable within ep 1-4, if not ep 1 is enough.
EP 1-4 are solvable with a Shannon/Kanon culprit theory.
Ep 1 is solvable with a Shannon/Kanon culprit theory.
The fact that after the following developments of the game people discovered Shannon's old nick was Yasu and began to use this nick when referring to the culprit is merely additional explanation. It doesn't invalidate the Shannon/Kanon culprit theory.
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Old 2013-11-27, 05:38   Link #33258
jTiKey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The existence of Kinzo's child was implied prior to game 6. We didn't know which was his name but we knew he existed.
And we know right from Ep 1 that a person can own multiple names. Shannon informs us in EP 1 that she has another name, not just Shannon. Jessica also says she's Jessie in EP 2. And we know that for a time Battler stopped being Battler Ushiromiya. So yes, the fact that a person can own multiple names shouldn't really come as something new to us.
There is no connection to that child with any character. And it is told by a eye witness, who killed it that that kid is dead. That confession is made in the real world to the detective, and not in a magical perpective by fictional characters.

We have the names Shannon, Kanon and Jessica told in red. But we don't have any red about them having any other names, so that can just be a lie. Red calls Jessica Jessica, Shannon Shannon and Kanon Kanon. The red tells only one name of each other, so even if we have white text, that stated otherwise, it can be, or even is a lie. Even though Kinzo was dead, proclaned in red, he still "was living" in EP5. If there is red truth about a statement, everything otherwise is a lie, even if it is implied with white text afterwise. Same goes with ep 7, where there is a general statement in red about servants, and then we get a whole episode about a servant being the culprit.
It's like:




Quote:
EP 1-4 are solvable with a Shannon/Kanon culprit theory.
Ep 1 is solvable with a Shannon/Kanon culprit theory.
The fact that after the following developments of the game people discovered Shannon's old nick was Yasu and began to use this nick when referring to the culprit is merely additional explanation. It doesn't invalidate the Shannon/Kanon culprit theory.
What about ep 3, where both Shannon and Kanon are dead at the beggining?
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Old 2013-11-27, 07:01   Link #33259
GreyZone
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You know, the existence of "Beatrice" has been foreshadowed in every game multiple times. In the murder case that is also the title of the murderer. So while the murderer's 'real identity' is "Beatrice, The Ushiromiya family's Alchemist, the Golden Witch and the 2nd Master of Rokkenjima", the names "Shannon" and "Kanon" are just aliases. I got a nice quote for that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kill Bill vol. 2 - Bill
Now, a staple of the superhero mythology is, there’s the superhero and there’s the alter ego. Batman is actually Bruce Wayne, Spider-Man is actually Peter Parker. When that character wakes up in the morning, he’s Peter Parker. He has to put on a costume to become Spider-Man. And it is in that characteristic Superman stands alone.

Superman didn’t become Superman. Superman was born Superman. When Superman wakes up in the morning, he’s Superman. His alter ego is Clark Kent. His outfit with the big red “S” – that’s the blanket he was wrapped in as a baby when the Kents found him. Those are his clothes. What Kent wears – the glasses, the business suit – that’s the costume. That’s the costume Superman wears to blend in with us.
The murderer's case shares some similarities with Superman's situation from that quote. That is also essential for satisfying Van Dine's "the culprit is not a servant".


Also about red truth: If there is one thing that Umineko conveyed right, then it is the endless possibilities of twisting words. So if you claim once something is said in red, the opposite is impossible, then I claim the opposite and construct such a supposed "contradiction":
1. The red truth "Battler is dead" is false.
However:
2. The red truth "Battler is dead" is true.

"1." uses the interpretation that Battler's physical body lives on as Hachijou Tohya.

"2." uses the interpretation that no one (that is part of the story) identifies themselves as "Battler" at the time of that statement and as we know in the language of the witches' battle, "dead" can refer to the psychological view instead of the physical one.
Another possible interpretation is that "Battler" refers to Asumu's stillborn child that most likely had the same name.
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Old 2013-11-27, 07:07   Link #33260
jTiKey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
"1." uses the interpretation that Battler's physical body lives on as Hachijou Tohya.

"2." uses the interpretation that no one (that is part of the story) identifies themselves as "Battler" at the time of that statement and as we know in the language of the witches' battle, "dead" can refer to the psychological view instead of the physical one.
Another possible interpretation is that "Battler" refers to Asumu's stillborn child that most likely had the same name.
No one escapes, all die.

.........My entire family...never came home from Rokkenjima that day...!!

This game will not have a happy ending.
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