Character Discussion - Lelouch

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

The terrorists stole the capsule and brought it into the ghetto knowing full well the army would persue them and try to take out their entire cell. They deliberately put their own people at risk so they're just as responsible.

They escaped into the only place they had to run. They were driven there by the Britannians. They are not to blame for Clovis' overreaction, because they simply escaped into the underground tunnels, not the ghetto itself.

[Betteroffer]

Beyond that, the truck got stuck and Nagata was too injured to do anything about it. Ideally, he would have continued on through the tunnels all together before the military could close them off. Clovis would halt the efforts to surround the ghetto once the truck was detected outside of the area.

[Icarius Blightwalker]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Err...
They just stole weapon-grade poisonous gas. Where else are they suppose to run to to hide other than the Ghettos, where their hideout is located?

Seriously, that's just nuts. They didn't know they stole an immortal woman who could grant superpowers, and that she is important enough for Clovis to commit mass murder to get her back. It is just a batch of poisonous gas.

Poisonous gas, which could endanger the lives of possibly thousands of Brittanian citizens. And from what I've seen, to a general of the Brittanian army "1 Brittanian Noble > Thousands of Elevens". Ougi, should of thought what the army's responce would be to stealing a weapon like that. If he did, he would of realised, that the army would have no qualm about purging the entire ghetto in order to defend Brittania, if they suspected it was hidden there. Honestly, to that frame of mind, it is the most tatically apparent option.

The idea with the capsule is (supposedly), is that, if we take it, they would not move against us in fear of us realeasing it. The flaw in hiding it in the Ghetto is that they don't give a rat's arse if you release it there, becuase only Elevens would be killed.

Oh? I thought the tunnels were in the Ghetto >_>, it had the 'ruined down look' that the Ghetto had.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Icarius Blightwalker

Poisonous gas, which could endanger the lives of possibly thousands of Brittanian citizens. And from what I've seen, to a general of the Brittanian army "1 Brittanian Noble > Thousands of Elevens". Ougi, should of thought what the army's responce would be to stealing a weapon like that. If he did, he would of realised, that the army would have no qualm about purging the entire ghetto in order to defend Brittania, if they suspected it was hidden there. Honestly, to that frame of mind, it is the most tatically apparent option.

The idea with the capsule is (supposedly), is that, if we take it, they would not move against us in fear of us realeasing it. The flaw in hiding it in the Ghetto is that they don't give a rat's arse if you release it there, becuase only Elevens would be killed.

Oh? I thought the tunnels were in the Ghetto >_>, it had the 'ruined down look' that the Ghetto had.

Exactly, the army was never going to let the terrorists keep the gas. They'd recover it at all costs, and taking it to the ghetto would give them a huge degree of freedom on how they went about recovering it.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Icarius Blightwalker

Oh? I thought the tunnels were in the Ghetto >_>, it had the 'ruined down look' that the Ghetto had.

As Cornelia points out in a later episode, the tunnels run throughout Japan. It's an underground subway network. They stopped using it so it's run down, but it's not just the ghettos that have it.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Exactly, the army was never going to let the terrorists keep the gas. They'd recover it at all costs, and taking it to the ghetto would give them a huge degree of freedom on how they went about recovering it.

You are losing track of your own statement. You were blaming the resistance for taking the gas to the Ghetto where civilians are, but the massacre is actually a disproportional response so big that Clovis has to hide it from other people in Britannian government..

Clovis choose to kill people he didn't need to kill, but only because he can't let anyone know the poisonous gas ISN'T poisonous gas! If it was just poisonous gas, Clovis will just send troops to recover it with some casulties, but not everyone will die.

The only reason Clovis wanted to kill EVERYONE there, is that he didn't want any witnesses to see CC. This includes Britannian witnesses.

[Bionicman]

I would argue that both the rebels and Clovis deserved blame. The rebels 1) chose to hide among the innocent people of the ghetto, either because they didn't consider what Britannia would do to prevent them from taking/using the poison gas or because they didn't care, and 2) the fact that they stole what they thought was poison gas in the first place is a black mark (as someone said earlier, they didn't take it because they thought it would look good in their rec room). Clovis, meanwhile, deserves blame because his response (purging the ghetto) had nothing to do with the safety of anyone (be it the ghetto's inhabitants or Britannian citizens); it was purely an attempt to save his own skin by hiding C.C.'s existence. There may be reasons that would justify the purge Clovis ordered, but preventing people from learning that you screwed up is not one of them.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Bionicman

I would argue that both the rebels and Clovis deserved blame. The rebels 1) chose to hide among the innocent people of the ghetto, either because they didn't consider what Britannia would do to prevent them from taking/using the poison gas or because they didn't care, and 2) the fact that they stole what they thought was poison gas in the first place is a black mark (as someone said earlier, they didn't take it because they thought it would look good in their rec room). Clovis, meanwhile, deserves blame because his response (purging the ghetto) had nothing to do with the safety of anyone (be it the ghetto's inhabitants or Britannian citizens); it was purely an attempt to save his own skin by hiding C.C.'s existence. There may be reasons that would justify the purge Clovis ordered, but preventing people from learning that you screwed up is not one of them.

They chose to hide in the tunnels, not the civilian buildings. In fact most of the area was empty where they were. Only later, when the massacre really got underway and they had already tried to stop it did they mingle with the few living civilians. What precipitated the massacre was their initial success in evading capture thanks to the truck driver blowing up the recon squad.

They stole the gas because such a thing is not better off in the hands of people who would use it against them. Stealing it was prudent, even if it was only a short-term solution, and they're fairly clear that using it against civilian targets was not part of the plan.

[bladeofdarkness]

they were hiding in the tunnels, and they were only in the tunnels in that area because villeta ran nagata off the road at that spot
i just love the "they were trying to hide among the civilians" argument
am i the only one who knows that there is no point in hiding among the civilians when the civilians are being targeted along with the terrorists ?
ougi's group were concentrating the civilains in one place to try to get them out of the line of fire for a later evacuation once the route was open
they were PROTECTING them, from the army who was out massacring everyone they could find
anyone who was outside was being killed

whats the point of "hiding" between civilians when you know the civilians are the target

[Nogitsune]

Omg, a discussion involving Clovis! *-*
I think I can die a happy fangirl now.

Echem...
I agree that Clovis was being a bastard in Shinjuku. I also think he was neither naive nor misguided, just indifferent. Anime!Clovis didn't give a cake about anything or anyone anymore, except probably his family, to whom he also barely had contact anymore (Euphie only really "got to know" him after his death, through his paintings).
However, you can't tell me Lelouch had no reason to assume that maybe Clovis cared about him. They played 37 matches against each other, for God's sake, and Clovis kept coming back.
It's Lelouch's hatred for his family that prevents him from taking into account this possibility, instead jumping to the conclusion that people who greatly respected his mother (Clovis, Cornelia) were her murderers. It's not a logical conclusion, but that of a boy who got screwed by life much too early.
He was so sure Clovis was responsible - just look at his reaction when Geass proves him wrong. It's ironic.
I also don't believe Lelouch "did the right thing" in killing Clovis. It would have been "the right thing" if I had good reason to assume that Clovis would have continued killing people instead of helped his favourite little brother if he'd lived, and since his love for Lelouch is what defines Clovis, that's not the case.
[By the way, even though Clovis obviously cared about Nunally, it was Lelouch for whom he went to Area 11. The guy is clearly obsessed. He even built a replica of Ares' Imperial Villa on the top of the government building.]
Clovis is by no means your neighbourhood Britannian nobel. He has no political ambitions (as the Sound Drama tells us), doesn't care one way or the other about "Numbers" (when he hears Lelouch had an Eleven as a friend in Stage 0.884, he doesn't even blink) and was once considered "too kind" to rule. He's neither naive nor an idiot, but simply someone who had no purpose.
In my opinion, he's a very tragic character. And even though like every person, he has to live with the consequences of his actions, I think praising Lelouch for killing him is pushing it. But then again, I never believed in the concept of "punishment for the sake of punishment".

[Revolutionist]

It's easy to give orders like "don't leave anyone alive" when you're indifferent and never really get to witness the consequences of your orders. Clovis didn't deserve to die because he made some bad decisions out of panic. In the end nobody really has the right to decide who lives and dies. The fact that Lelouch decided to pass judgement onto Clovis just means he's no better than his enemy, and I think the show proves that.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

It's easy to give orders like "don't leave anyone alive" when you're indifferent and never really get to witness the consequences of your orders. Clovis didn't deserve to die because he made some bad decisions out of panic. In the end nobody really has the right to decide who lives and dies. The fact that Lelouch decided to pass judgement onto Clovis just means he's no better than his enemy, and I think the show proves that.

I mostly agree with this, but I think morally speaking, Lelouch is indeed better than his enemy, and a lot of other people in the show.
While Britannia ruins lives, Lelouch improves them. Sure, he also destroys quite a few and makes a lot of errors in judgment, but if I knew I'd wake up as a random character in the Code Geass universe tomorrow, I'd root for him any time.
Lelouch shooting Clovis was pretty unnecessary and not awesome (or, well, the tragic irony was indeed epic, but still), but if someone else had shot him, I wouldn't blame them. After all, Clovis practically extended an invitation when he ordered the massacre. And maybe he was aware of that, because he only panicked when he found out just who was holding the gun to his face.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

However, you can't tell me Lelouch had no reason to assume that maybe Clovis cared about him. They played 37 matches against each other, for God's sake, and Clovis kept coming back.

I'd say the Emblem of Blood would be a VERY good reason for Lelouch to suspect his family of being heartless and ax-crazy. The thing is, Lelouch only asked Clovis if he specifically had a hand in Marianne' murder, he didn't follow up with questions about why Clovis didn't try to help him after he was banished, whether or not Clovis would have implemented plans of his own to get rid of Lelouch and Nunally, or what Clovis's actual feelings towards him and Nunally were, because he had already convinced himself that Clovis was just another Britannian noble/royal out for power.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

It's Lelouch's hatred for his family that prevents him from taking into account this possibility, instead jumping to the conclusion that people who greatly respected his mother (Clovis, Cornelia) were her murderers. It's not a logical conclusion, but that of a boy who got screwed by life much too early.

Lelouch only has memories of what Clovis was like over 7 years ago, and exposure to his public face as a theatrical politician. When Lelouch actually came upon Clovis in Shinjuku, his dear big brother was carrying out a massacre for the sake of covering up the fact that he was performing experiments on human beings (i.e. Britannians). These are not factors that would lead a reasonable person (let alone Lelouch) to assume that Clovis hated his job and his heart had been eroded away from isolation and the pressures of rulership.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

He was so sure Clovis was responsible - just look at his reaction when Geass proves him wrong. It's ironic.
I also don't believe Lelouch "did the right thing" in killing Clovis. It would have been "the right thing" if I had good reason to assume that Clovis would have continued killing people instead of helped his favourite little brother if he'd lived, and since his love for Lelouch is what defines Clovis, that's not the case.

I'd say it was a justifiable action, but Lelouch later admitted to Euphemia that he was doing it for the wrong reasons (because Clovis was a child of the Emperor).

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

[By the way, even though Clovis obviously cared about Nunally, it was Lelouch for whom he went to Area 11. The guy is clearly obsessed. He even built a replica of Ares' Imperial Villa on the top of the government building.]
Clovis is by no means your neighbourhood Britannian nobel. He has no political ambitions (as the Sound Drama tells us), doesn't care one way or the other about "Numbers" (when he hears Lelouch had an Eleven as a friend in Stage 0.884, he doesn't even blink) and was once considered "too kind" to rule. He's neither naive nor an idiot, but simply someone who had no purpose.

Again, Lelouch has every reason to believe the contrary at the time of their meeting.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

In my opinion, he's a very tragic character. And even though like every person, he has to live with the consequences of his actions, I think praising Lelouch for killing him is pushing it. But then again, I never believed in the concept of "punishment for the sake of punishment".

I agree with all of this.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

It's easy to give orders like "don't leave anyone alive" when you're indifferent and never really get to witness the consequences of your orders. Clovis didn't deserve to die because he made some bad decisions out of panic. In the end nobody really has the right to decide who lives and dies. The fact that Lelouch decided to pass judgement onto Clovis just means he's no better than his enemy, and I think the show proves that.

Nice try, but you aren't going to make Clovis look nice by comparing him to Lulu.
Bad decisions out of panic? He ordered everyone in the area be killed, even Britannians. You might as well claim the Emperor made some "bad decisions" in invading Japan.

Clovis indiscriminately demand that people who have nothing to do with him be massacred. I don't care how panicked he is, that's an immoral choice he made. After all, what CAN you excuse by saying "I panicked"?

Some excuses just don't make sense. "Bad Decisions" don't even come close to covering it. It's just like when Lulu became depressed and tried to make himself into an addict; it was the wrong choice, no matter how "explainable" it is. Just because you understand why someone might do something, doesn't make it okay.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

I'd say the Emblem of Blood would be a VERY good reason for Lelouch to suspect his family of being heartless and ax-crazy. The thing is, Lelouch only asked Clovis if he specifically had a hand in Marianne' murder, he didn't follow up with questions about why Clovis didn't try to help him after he was banished, whether or not Clovis would have implemented plans of his own to get rid of Lelouch and Nunally, or what Clovis's actual feelings towards him and Nunally were, because he had already convinced himself that Clovis was just another Britannian noble/royal out for power.

And why was Lelouch so convinced Clovis was against him? Indeed, why was he so sure that his brother was his mother's murderer?
Because he hated his family. That's all there is to it.
Sure, Lelouch had reason to believe the court was full of power-hungry people who'd step over their own family's dead bodies to get what they want, but he also had reason to believe that there were people who cared about him. He just completely disregarded the possibility.
He could easily have asked Clovis what he thought about him, but didn't even think about it. And after Lelouch was banished, there was no way for Clovis to help him. What was he supposed to do? Send him cake?
Especially since Lelouch and Nunally were never officially disinherited, and Clovis himself said that none of them imagined Britannia would go to war with Japan back them. They didn't know Lelouch wouldn't return.

Lelouch only has memories of what Clovis was like over 7 years ago, and exposure to his public face as a theatrical politician. When Lelouch actually came upon Clovis in Shinjuku, his dear big brother was carrying out a massacre for the sake of covering up the fact that he was performing experiments on human beings (i.e. Britannians). These are not factors that would lead a reasonable person (let alone Lelouch) to assume that Clovis hated his job and his heart had been eroded away from isolation and the pressures of rulership.

Over seven years ago, Clovis seemed to have been a pretty all right kind of guy. I'm not saying Lelouch could have magically seen the truth - just that it's Lelouch, and that it was just not logical of him to assume that Clovis was his mother's murderer. He is very well capable of investigating and even reading people when he's not blinded by his hatred.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

And why was Lelouch so convinced Clovis was against him? Indeed, why was he so sure that his brother was his mother's murderer?
Because he hated his family. That's all there is to it.
Sure, Lelouch had reason to believe the court was full of power-hungry people who'd step over their own family's dead bodies to get what they want, but he also had reason to believe that there were people who cared about him. He just completely disregarded the possibility.

Because Lelouch remembers his history lessons. His own father lived through a time when every member of their family was openly trying to kill every other member. Then his mother was gunned down in her own home with his sister underneath her corpse and his father told him to f*ck off. He came to believe that he and his family were targeted because his mother was a commoner and had no noble backers to defend her or seek retribution. Indeed, the Ashfords actually declined without her, they had no ability to seek revenge.

None of his siblings came with him to stand before his father, none of them tried to protest the decision to banish him, none of them (except Euphemia if I remember correctly) sent letters to him or tried to visit him in Japan to tell him that once he returned, they would protect him and Nunally. As far as Lelouch had reason to believe, Clovis and the others were putting on smiling faces and waiting for the opportunity to strike him down all along, but someone else just beat them to the punch.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

He could easily have asked Clovis what he thought about him, but didn't even think about it.

Yes, he could have, but Lelouch was convinced that he already knew the answer, and while it was the wrong answer, lelouch was justified in believing it.

Geass told Lelouch that Clovis didn't kill his mother and it would have told him that Clovis and several of his other siblings loved him and would protect him, but Lelouch didn't bother asking these questions because he believed he already knew the answer.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

And after Lelouch was banished, there was no way for Clovis to help him. What was he supposed to do? Send him cake?
Especially since Lelouch and Nunally were never officially disinherited, and Clovis himself said that none of them imagined Britannia would go to war with Japan back them. They didn't know Lelouch wouldn't return.

Actually...yes. Clovis could have sent him cake. Clovis could have sent him letters and paintings and tried to make actual calls or visits to Japan before the invasion to see Lelouch and convey to him that he was genuinely concerned for him and cared about him. The absence of anyone trying to contact him fueled Lelouch's belief that he had been written off by his family and that they would kill him if he returned.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Over seven years ago, Clovis seemed to have been a pretty all right kind of guy. I'm not saying Lelouch could have magically seen the truth - just that it's Lelouch, and that it was just not logical of him to assume that Clovis was his mother's murderer. He is very well capable of investigating and even reading people when he's not blinded by his hatred.

Yes, seven years. Seven years is a long time and easily enough time for someone to change. Clovis went from a gentle and unmotivated artist, to a man who would experiment on other human beings and order the massacre of an entire neighborhood to avoid being disinherited over it. Clovis started as an okay person who progressed into a d*ck. Lelouch believed (again, for justifiable reasons) that Clovis was already a d*ck, and so his degeneration would be even worse.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

Because Lelouch remembers his history lessons. His own father lived through a time when every member of their family was openly trying to kill every other member. Then his mother was gunned down in her own home with his sister underneath her corpse and his father told him to f*ck off. He came to believe that he and his family were targeted because his mother was a commoner and had no noble backers to defend her or seek retribution. Indeed, the Ashfords actually declined without her, they had no ability to seek revenge.

Lelouch knew that Cornelia admired his mother, and that Clovis (or at least, the Clovis from almost eight years ago) had no political ambitions.
It's one thing to suspect them, it's another to jump to conclusions.

None of his siblings came with him to stand before his father, none of them tried to protest the decision to banish him, none of them (except Euphemia if I remember correctly) sent letters to him or tried to visit him in Japan to tell him that once he returned, they would protect him and Nunally. As far as Lelouch had reason to believe, Clovis and the others were putting on smiling faces and waiting for the opportunity to strike him down all along, but someone else just beat them to the punch.

Actually, I don't think Lelouch told anyone he was going to challenge their father, and since he was never officially banished, just sent to Japan under one guise or another, they had no reason to risk losing the Emperor's favour when they could just wait for Lelouch and Nunally to return.
It also wasn't Euphie who wrote a letter to him, but the other way around, which means contacting him was probably difficult for them.

Yes, he could have, but Lelouch was convinced that he already knew the answer, and while it was the wrong answer, lelouch was justified in believing it.

Geass told Lelouch that Clovis didn't kill his mother and it would have told him that Clovis and several of his other siblings loved him and would protect him, but Lelouch didn't bother asking these questions because he believed he already knew the answer.

He had reason for at least a grain of doubt, and asking wouldn't have hurt.

Actually...yes. Clovis could have sent him cake. Clovis could have sent him letters and paintings and tried to make actual calls or visits to Japan before the invasion to see Lelouch and convey to him that he was genuinely concerned for him and cared about him. The absence of anyone trying to contact him fueled Lelouch's belief that he had been written off by his family and that they would kill him if he returned.

No one wrote to Lelouch, so it must have been difficult. Maybe they weren't even allowed to write to him in case someone other than Lelouch read the letters.

Yes, seven years. Seven years is a long time and easily enough time for someone to change. Clovis went from a gentle and unmotivated artist, to a man who would experiment on other human beings and order the massacre of an entire neighborhood to avoid being disinherited over it. Clovis started as an okay person who progressed into a d*ck. Lelouch believed (again, for justifiable reasons) that Clovis was already a d*ck, and so his degeneration would be even worse.

I don't think Lelouch's belief was all that justified. People may change, but Lelouch is usually the first to assume that they have retained some of their old qualities - for example, despite Cornelia's ruthlessness, he never doubted that she still loved Euphie very dearly, even after all this time.
It's just that Lelouch thought Clovis had always been his enemy, and that was jumping to conclusions.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Lelouch knew that Cornelia admired his mother, and that Clovis (or at least, the Clovis from almost eight years ago) had no political ambitions.

Well, I am sure Lulu had no intention of killing Clovis eight years ago.

What does that have to do with the Clovis in the present though?

Emperor Charles had performed no evil acts when he was a baby. Does that make him a good person as an adult?

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Well, I am sure Lulu had no intention of killing Clovis eight years ago.

What does that have to do with the Clovis in the present though?

Emperor Charles had performed no evil acts when he was a baby. Does that make him a good person as an adult?

Errr.
I was talking about Lelouch's assumption that Clovis killed his mother eight years ago.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Lelouch knew that Cornelia admired his mother, and that Clovis (or at least, the Clovis from almost eight years ago) had no political ambitions.
It's one thing to suspect them, it's another to jump to conclusions.

The Clovis of seven years ago had no ambitions. The Clovis of today was slaughtering hundreds, possibly thousands, of innocent people to avoid being disinherited due to the possible revelation that he was performing illegal experiments on living people.

The Cornelia of seven years ago "allegedly" admired Marianne and supposedly investigated her murder, but the Cornelia of today was happily perpetuating the system of oppression and competition that claimed her life, utilizing supressive military tactics that Schneizel himself considered excessive.

Cornelia was part of Marianne's guard and investigated her death, but found nothing out despite her position. While Cornelia genuinely wasn't part of the murder, her respective positions certainly made the situation look like she could be a fox guarding the henhouse.

When Lelouch finally gets to use his Geass on Cornelia, she reveals that Marianne herself dismissed her guards that day. This meant that Marianne deeply trusted whoever killed her, thus further justifying Lelouch's suspicions that even the most trusted members of his family really couldn't be trusted.

I say "allegedly" because it isn't a far cry for Lelouch to assume that everyone who acted kind to him was secretly sizing him up. Given events like the Emblem of Blood, the harassment he and Nunally endured at the hands of many of his half-siblings and the other imperial consorts, and the sheer disdain his father seemed to show for him and Nunally, Lelouch had good reason to assume everyone around him was just out for power. It would be a fair assumption that those who showed tolerance and compassion to Lelouch were just trying to get in good with his family in case he ever rose to promminence, and they seemed to cast him aside when Marianne was killed.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Actually, I don't think Lelouch told anyone he was going to challenge their father, and since he was never officially banished, just sent to Japan under one guise or another, they had no reason to risk losing the Emperor's favour when they could just wait for Lelouch and Nunally to return.
It also wasn't Euphie who wrote a letter to him, but the other way around, which means contacting him was probably difficult for them.

He had to have a meeting set up just to see his father, and his siblings would certainly be keeping an eye on Lelouch after such a traumatic event occured. At the very least, the nobles present when Lelouch renounced his title would probably gossip (they were even gossiping as Lelouch walked by in the throne room) and it is reasonable for the others to hear that Lelouch was suddenly going to Japan, even if no official reason was given. It wouldn't be a matter of risking the Emperor's favour to try to communicate with Lelouch before he confronted his father (or visit Nunally in the hospital), before he and Nunally were sent off, or even while he was in Japan. If Lelouch was never officially disinherited (is this confirmed?) then that is all the more reason that his siblings should have been able to communicate with him while he was in Japan, or at least thought it would be okay to do so.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

He had reason for at least a grain of doubt, and asking wouldn't have hurt.

A grain weighed against the corpses of hundreds of innocent people.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

No one wrote to Lelouch, so it must have been difficult. Maybe they weren't even allowed to write to him in case someone other than Lelouch read the letters.

Calls and letters could be gone over to ensure nothing unecessary was mentioned. Gifts should presumably be sendable, and Lelouch was able to get letters to them, they should have tried and been able to return the favor. Even if the letters were not sent through on their end, it should have been mentioned, either by Clovis to Lelouch, or the siblings amongst themselves to add to the tragic irony. Again, if the banishment wasn't official then the siblings should have felt comfortable trying to contact him.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I don't think Lelouch's belief was all that justified. People may change, but Lelouch is usually the first to assume that they have retained some of their old qualities - for example, despite Cornelia's ruthlessness, he never doubted that she still loved Euphie very dearly, even after all this time.
It's just that Lelouch thought Clovis had always been his enemy, and that was jumping to conclusions.

Cornelia's continued affection for Euphemia was revealled in Kawaguchi when she acted uncharacteristically by not annihilating the entire hotel. The only explanation was that someone Cornelia valued was inside, and just because Cornelia values Euphemia doesn't mean she may have come to view others as enemies.

Clovis changed enough to massacre innocent people and he was supposed to be the gentle one.