Aquarion EVOL - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[kuromitsu]

I finally got around watching the episode... oh boy. -___-) While there were many things I enjoyed about the episode (and dammit I teared up when Shrade died *sniff*) it really left a bad aftertaste.

Let's start with the good things. There were some really, really cool visuals in this episode. The whole "gather 'round children and listen to my story" setting made me roll my eyes but at least they managed to make it visually interesting for most of the time, and Fujiwara Keiji and Tange Sakura did a great job, being theatric and hammy just enough to keep up my attention when the visuals didn't. And the scene when Mykage kissed Zessica, it was really beautiful. (But wait, does this mean I won't see Mykage until he is eventually expelled from Zessica? oh no! >_< )

And Shrade, damn you, Shrade, you really did go out in a blaze of glory and Cayenne cried over you. *sniff*

Also, Mykagezilla.


OK, and now for the bad things.

1) Dogs. Yeah. No amount of cute flying doggies and "lol they're really the dog I totally called it back in February" make up for the fact that this is a) a retcon and b) bullshit and c) badly written bullshit. Oh, it would've been more than fine with Amata & Kagura being the dog, but Apollo? Seriously, What the hell? And no, it wasn't foreshadowed in Genesis, if you've watched the show do please tell me* whether by the end a) you had any doubts about who Apollo was the reincarnation of and b) there were any hints that made you even entertain the idea that Apollo could be that little dog we've seen once or twice. (To say nothing of the OVAs, as far as I remember they had no such hints whatsoever either.) So yeah, bullshit, and no amount of dogs photoshopped into earlier footage will change that.

1a) Oh yeah, and what was that about Touma wanting to destroy humans? The angels hunted humans for food and for the Tree of Life. Touma hated humans, sure, but destroying them all wasn't his top priority, first and foremost he was concerned with Aquarion and the Tree. Destroying humans was pretty low on his list (come to think of it, did he ever mention wanting to destroy them? I mean, angels survive by eating humans, in a way.)

1b) And wtf, the planet splitting into two after the Tree died? I thought that was why Apollo & Co. had to use Aquarion to pull the damn planet together. To, you know, prevent it from falling apart. Also, weird how the planet split into two and nobody seemed to even notice it... ^^;;

1c) So basically, during the entirety of Genesis Celiane/Silvia thought she was in love with her One True Love Apollonius and little did she know it was actually his dog. This has some great comedy potential in it, too bad that Evol plays it straight and by this makes it not funny.

2) I'm sure I'm the only one who is annoyed by this, but damn it Kawamori, what's up with the recycled Genesis footage again?! You had some really nice visuals in this ep, did you really have to ruin the whole thing by inserting footage with completely different artwork, color schemes, etc that stick out like a sore thumb? Argh! This already bothered me in the previous flashback, but here it was even worse. It's just jarring! FFS, reusing the soundtrack, reusing footage, how cheap can you be? >_<

3) While I'm sure everyone is upset about Zessica, I'd just like to grab the opportunity to be upset over what they're doing with Amata, or rather, what they're not doing with him. :/ After the previous episode I thought he was finally becoming the main character, but no, in this ep he was relegated to less than a supporting chara again. For fuck's sake, really. We have 3 remaining episodes, and by returning to the Mix storyline next week there will be even less time for Amata to actually do anything, which probably means he either really won't do anything or even if he tries he'll get one-upped by someone... again. What the hell. Poor boy.

4) And in the meanwhile I still have the feeling that the story is going somewhere that I won't like. Ah well, 3 more eps.


Btw, wtf is up with Kagura still calling Mikono Sylphie. If he already remembers everything shouldn't he call her at least Silvia? (or... *gasp* Mikono?)

*I'm being rhetoric here.

[Haak]

Well at least we now know why Okada said Mikono was a "bad girl". Apparently Mikono likes it "Doggy-style"...

[C.A.]

SRW is going to need to patch up alot of stuff in order to make EVOL decent in the game.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Rennir

Didn't see this coming at all. Well played, Kawamori, well played. I wonder why he did it though. Why get all the viewers into the Apollonious and Celiane love story and the 12000 years and reincarnation, only to rip it into pieces and throw it away?

Because he thinks such stories are really, really stupid and wants to let the watchers know?

[Triple_R]

Wow, I never thought Aquarion EVOL would lose kuro. Maybe this really is the "Jump the Shark (or should I say "Jump the Dog" ) episode.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

2) I'm sure I'm the only one who is annoyed by this, but damn it Kawamori, what's up with the recycled Genesis footage again?! You had some really nice visuals in this ep, did you really have to ruin the whole thing by inserting footage with completely different artwork, color schemes, etc that stick out like a sore thumb? Argh! This already bothered me in the previous flashback, but here it was even worse. It's just jarring! FFS, reusing the soundtrack, reusing footage, how cheap can you be? >_<

This doesn't bother me as much as it bothered you, but I agree that it is a bit jarring. I don't know why they can't at least remaster it a bit so it looks a little more seamless.

3) While I'm sure everyone is upset about Zessica, I'd just like to grab the opportunity to be upset over what they're doing with Amata, or rather, what they're not doing with him. :/

I'm more upset about Zessica, but I agree that Amata is getting pretty badly-handled, especially for a male lead.

Truthfully, Zessica, Amata, and Mikono have all turned into plot devices (while Kagura was always just a plot device). The entire love quadrangle are now four plot devices working in unison. Their dialogue is incredibly uninspired, and hence shifting into self-parody. Zessica is the only one of the four who says anything remotely interesting anymore, but even with her it's fairly straightforward angsting dialogue.

This has basically become the Fudo vs. Mykage show. This might as well be their show now. We're watching a Fudo/Mykage chess match where the love quadrangle are simply pawns.

[GoldenLand]

By this point, I'm really curious about who Apollonius is, or whether all of him is just hanging out in Aquarion. He still hasn't been accounted for. It would be lulz-worthy if he turns out to be partly Alicia and she only wakes up at the very end.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Having rewatched Genesis of Aquarion episode 16 here is my interpretation.

Spoiler:

It is Rena that led Silvia to Apollo in the first place. In the OVA the after effect of the dimensional distortions led to a clue where Apollo was.

In the TV series and OVA universes it is Rena who can read the Book of Genesis.

Like Fudo Rena, doesn't age. Which gives me to the speculation on the whole Body, Heart and Soul thing.

Much like in the OVA in the TV universe Apollonius, Celiane and Scorpius were the pilots of Aquarion. Scorpius did back stab Apollonius. But much like Celiane that split into Silvia and Sirius, Apollonius was split... into three pieces. The Aquarion, Fudo and Rena.

Which is why Fudo and Rena knew more what was going on than the rest of them.

...And if true, that theory is a really fun explanation. Rena and Fudo have always been enigmatic, and if they're Apollonius, that would explain it.

There's a slightly clearer pic of that scene with Pollon over here (not my pic), since your one there is a little blurry. http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg9/s...ng&res=landing

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

1) Dogs. Yeah. No amount of cute flying doggies and "lol they're really the dog I totally called it back in February" make up for the fact that this is a) a retcon and b) bullshit and c) badly written bullshit. Oh, it would've been more than fine with Amata & Kagura being the dog, but Apollo? Seriously, What the hell? And no, it wasn't foreshadowed in Genesis, if you've watched the show do please tell me* whether by the end a) you had any doubts about who Apollo was the reincarnation of and b) there were any hints that made you even entertain the idea that Apollo could be that little dog we've seen once or twice. (To say nothing of the OVAs, as far as I remember they had no such hints whatsoever either.) So yeah, bullshit, and no amount of dogs photoshopped into earlier footage will change that.

Putting aside whether or not it's bullshit (although frankly, it's not as if Aquarion has ever been running on logic), just the fact that most people didn't notice that Apollo wasn't confirmed as Apollonius doesn't automatically make it a retcon, and doesn't mean that there weren't some clues in place about his identity.

(Things like the way Rena constantly sees Apollo as a dog, Pollon being shown and heard howling while Apollo yells "Rena!", Rena saying "Whether you are the wings of the sun, or a beast of darkness." etc. And the scene where Sylvia asks whether they walked together like this 12,000 years ago, Apollo says he doesn't know but remembers her from somewhere by her scent, and then we see a picture depicting Silvia and Apollo, with Apollo crouching with little wings and a dog tail.)

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

2) I'm sure I'm the only one who is annoyed by this, but damn it Kawamori, what's up with the recycled Genesis footage again?! You had some really nice visuals in this ep, did you really have to ruin the whole thing by inserting footage with completely different artwork, color schemes, etc that stick out like a sore thumb? Argh! This already bothered me in the previous flashback, but here it was even worse. It's just jarring! FFS, reusing the soundtrack, reusing footage, how cheap can you be? >_<

It was disappointing. It's not as if the Genesis footage isn't nice, but it doesn't fit EVOL's art style. They didn't even use that much of the Genesis footage, so it should have been possible to remake it.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

I'd just like to grab the opportunity to be upset over what they're doing with Amata, or rather, what they're not doing with him. :/ After the previous episode I thought he was finally becoming the main character, but no, in this ep he was relegated to less than a supporting chara again. For fuck's sake, really. We have 3 remaining episodes, and by returning to the Mix storyline next week there will be even less time for Amata to actually do anything, which probably means he either really won't do anything or even if he tries he'll get one-upped by someone... again. What the hell. Poor boy.

It's very silly to have a main character who never gets the opportunity to do anything. I mean, last ep more or less all he did was try to beat himself up. It's nice that EVOL treats its supporting cast well, but they should at least be trying to make the main character relevant and useful. As it is, he just hasn't had a chance. I was hoping the writers would step up to the plate for him, but as you say, there are only three episodes left.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This has basically become the Fudo vs. Mykage show. This might as well be their show now. We're watching a Fudo/Mykage chess match where the love quadrangle are simply pawns.

True. The main four characters really have been under-utilised to the extent where they're arguably more plot device than character. I'd like to hope they might get better in the little bit of time that's left, but it's unlikely.

At least Fudo and Mykage aren't just plot devices.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This has basically become the Fudo vs. Mykage show. This might as well be their show now. We're watching a Fudo/Mykage chess match where the love quadrangle are simply pawns.

But in that case at least give me us more Fudou/Mykage! :/ At least they had some pretty good chemistry. And don't stash Mykage away in Zessica where I can't even look at him being pretty. /totally has her priorities straight

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Putting aside whether or not it's bullshit (although frankly, it's not as if Aquarion has ever been running on logic), just the fact that most people didn't notice that Apollo wasn't confirmed as Apollonius doesn't automatically make it a retcon, and doesn't mean that there weren't some clues in place about his identity.

Correction: it's not most people, it's pretty much the entire audience, including, from what I've seen, the entire Japanese fanbase who have access to materials western fans don't. Before Evol the Aquarion franchise consisted of a TV anime series, two OVAs and a compilation movie with some new scenes, at least one manga, and a number of drama CDs. If, as a writer, you're trying to imply that the main character is not what he seems to be but another character, and after all this time nobody in the audience catches onto it then you're doing something very wrong.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

(Things like the way Rena constantly sees Apollo as a dog, Pollon being shown and heard howling while Apollo yells "Rena!", Rena saying "Whether you are the wings of the sun, or a beast of darkness." etc. And the scene where Sylvia asks whether they walked together like this 12,000 years ago, Apollo says he doesn't know but remembers her from somewhere by her scent, and then we see a picture depicting Silvia and Apollo, with Apollo crouching with little wings and a dog tail.)

So why didn't anyone notice these before? Why only after this reveal? When you watched the end of Genesis did you think, "guys, call me crazy but I think Apollo might just be that little dog after all"? I bet you didn't, for the same reason nobody else did. Even if originally they planned to make Apollo the dog it must have been scrapped somewhere along the line, similarly to the Reika=Scorpius storyline (which was then transferred to an AU in the OVAs). It just didn't happen as far as the narrative in Genesis is concerned. The dog wasn't featured on any promotional material I've seen, he appeared only in a handful of artwork, and even there he didn't seem particularly relevant and seemed to be there only to up the cuteness factor. One would think that if the dog was relevant they would've pushed him a little bit more. (Also, just a little reminder: Apollo had no actual wings and couldn't fly. So, yeah. I won't even ask how this translates into Kagura being the dog and Amata the wings. It would've worked if Amagura were the direct reincarnation of the dog, but Apollo? Nah.)

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

It was disappointing. It's not as if the Genesis footage isn't nice, but it doesn't fit EVOL's art style. They didn't even use that much of the Genesis footage, so it should have been possible to remake it.

Or don't even remake it, just... get creative! Black out the faces like in Utena! Do Rena/Crea like silly drawings! Or anything that actually looks part of the same show. :/

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

It's very silly to have a main character who never gets the opportunity to do anything. I mean, last ep more or less all he did was try to beat himself up. It's nice that EVOL treats its supporting cast well, but they should at least be trying to make the main character relevant and useful. As it is, he just hasn't had a chance. I was hoping the writers would step up to the plate for him, but as you say, there are only three episodes left.

At least in the previous episode he actually did something, and it was even something important (or not, seeing the current developments - I don't even know anymore), and he might have actually succeded were it not for Kagura's ridiculous power. Amata is the textbook example of what not to do with your protagonists. And it's sad, not just because he's my favorite character, but also because he started out so well, until they shoved him into the background in favor of other charas.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

3) While I'm sure everyone is upset about Zessica, I'd just like to grab the opportunity to be upset over what they're doing with Amata, or rather, what they're not doing with him. :/ After the previous episode I thought he was finally becoming the main character, but no, in this ep he was relegated to less than a supporting chara again. For fuck's sake, really. We have 3 remaining episodes, and by returning to the Mix storyline next week there will be even less time for Amata to actually do anything, which probably means he either really won't do anything or even if he tries he'll get one-upped by someone... again. What the hell. Poor boy.

Maybe the series is about Zessica all along. She's the new "Pollon". Although honestly, I'm starting to crack ship Zessica and Mykage.

[Radik]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

It's nice that EVOL treats its supporting cast well, but they should at least be trying to make the main character relevant and useful. As it is, he just hasn't had a chance. I was hoping the writers would step up to the plate for him, but as you say, there are only three episodes left.

In retrospect, there are just too many side characters. I don't think we even got to know anything at all about Zessica's past for example, which is really disappointing. The show either needed more episodes or it needed to put more focus on less characters. Now with only three episodes left there's still so much story that needs to be told... I'm not sure how they can possibly make it work.

[Flawfinder]

I like to pretend they're doing the Baccano/Durarara approach where there is no main character. I know that wasn't their intention, but it might as well be at this point.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Radik

In retrospect, there are just too many side characters. I don't think we even got to know anything at all about Zessica's past for example, which is really disappointing. The show either needed more episodes or it needed to put more focus on less characters. Now with only three episodes left there's still so much story that needs to be told... I'm not sure how they can possibly make it work.

It's definitely a writing issue, though. Genesis, for example, had an only slightly smaller cast, and yet still managed to keep the main charas in focus. Sure, none of the supporting characters would win a "Most Developed Side Chara" award, but all were likeable, they had at least one quirk that was exploited whenever possible, and basically, they did their job instead of hogging the screen. Meanwhile, in Evol... :/

[HiiroKun]

Originally Posted by bastek66

Me too, yet shit is so funny lately.

Spoiler for too big picture:

Hahah, that was freaking hilarious.. xDD !!

[mixordia]

I don't care much about the dog storyline, there are many animes where the main characters are dogs, cats, etc, we have many pets in anime, shoujo mangas, bla bla bla... this is irrelevant, the problem is where this Apollonius in all this? And why they changed the story in this way?

[Azuma Denton]

Oh the dog and the troll...
Good job Kawamori...


I hardly has any interest in any characters anymore...
Now give me Aquarion vs Aquarion battle scene...

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm more upset about Zessica, but I agree that Amata is getting pretty badly-handled, especially for a male lead.

This is hardly a problem unique to Aquarion Evol when it comes to mecha lately though. In fact the only male leads I can say have turned out good for me in recent memory (last couple years) when it comes to mecha TV shows are the ones from the goddamn "kiddie show". Now if ya'll will excuse I'm gonna go watch some Gundam Age. Bai~

[Destined_Fate]

[Double Post]

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by Haak

Well at least we now know why Okada said Mikono was a "bad girl". Apparently Mikono likes it "Doggy-style"...

Oh you.... Next we're going to have Kagura staying in animal form around here when she finally says yes to being killed all night long.

Originally Posted by C.A.

SRW is going to need to patch up alot of stuff in order to make EVOL decent in the game.

Have faith, Terada has fixed many things. Shinji(Took a level in Badassery), Gundam Seed Destiny(Z Shinn is best Shinn, though L Shinn is a cool dude), Godannar(KEN!!!!), Fafner(If you're willing to go through a ridiculous chain to save them all), Code Geass Ending(If Route makes Lelouch(He's the leader of ZEXIS too) and Kallen(They have her fix "everyone's problems", literally. Funny when Chirico, indebted to her, tries to help her with her Zero issue) god tier), Turn A Gundam(How they managed to work it so well while ignoring the entire setting but the moon business is amazing), Dancouga Nova/Dancouga Sismance/Bromance, adverting the Genesis ending altogether(So Apollo and Silvia fans got a happy ending without being trolled with this dog stuff), and ect.

So if anything can fix this it's the SRW team.

[cyberdemon]

I think everyone is getting a little worked up over the fact that he was a dog 24000 years ago. It isn't beastiality now. fact of the matter was that Apollo and Amata were born human and may have been human in the life before the dog. Heck our own incarnations might have been animals in the past.

[DragoonKain3]

Well played Kawamori. Well fucking played. Biggest WTF moment ever with the Pollon reveal, but from what little I remember of the original, it all makes sense in hindsight. I mean, Apollo runs like a dog for crying out loud, and from the beginning I was suspicious that Apollonius gets reincarnated into someone named Apollo (big RED HERRING alert there but I paid it no mind).

But what next? Mix simply in deep sleep and Mixy REALLY is her other world counterpart?

What I'm more interested in is Zessica and her role here (no surprise there, as I love Zessica the most). Why is Mikage seem so looking forward into getting her pregnant with Amata? Assuming it is Amata he wants her to have a child with, considering that he promised Zessica would get what she wanted all along.

Maybe, just maybe, Apollonius and Apollo both get reincarnated into Amata. So when Mikage split the original Amata, Amata retains the Apollonius side (with light wings) while Kagura gets the Pollon side (complete with dog/wolf sniffing senses and all).

After all, the warnings before have ALWAYS labelled KaguraXMikono as 'forbidden love' (reference to CelianeXPollon?) but made no scene when its AmataXMikono (because its the 'proper' pairing via ApolloniusXCeliane?).

Thus Mikage has always been pushing for Kagura (Pollon) to seek out Mikono (Celiane), in order for him to be with Amata (Apollonius) through Zessica's body.


....or I might just be wrong and that Fudo and/or the Solar Aquarion has been Apollonius all along. Honestly, with the plot twist bombs dropped left and right, ANYTHING can be a possiblity.

[Destined_Fate]

I don't have hope but if that's the case that it would make sense why Fudo said Kagura and Mikono are forbidden but didn't seem to mind Amata trying to get with Mikono despite Kagura and him being the same person. Though that's doubtful, they really want to push this beastality and betrayal thing hard. Makes you wonder what the heck Apollonius has been doing? Watching his girlfriend getting tricked nto thinking his dog is him?

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

I think everyone is getting a little worked up over the fact that he was a dog 24000 years ago. It isn't beastiality now. fact of the matter was that Apollo and Amata were born human and may have been human in the life before the dog. Heck our own incarnations might have been animals in the past.

It's not just the beastality implications. It's the fact that the dog jacked his Master's promise as his own. Than have Silvia later fall in love with Apollo and her thinking near the end that he was her destined Apollonius and not some dog that wanted to hump her leg when she was petting him in a past life. Also, there's a difference between making a promise of your own as a dog to get with your Master's lover in the next life and just naturally reincarnateing and meeting them without said promise or memories. The memories alone make it iffy because he's going to remember more when he was a dog and his doggy desire to mount his Master's lover so yeah... Ew.