[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[DgBarca]

Hum...if I remember cleary, with the defnition of the "logic error", the game shall stop when it is commited...
And then, Erika says

The game ended when I entered the guest room.

SO the logic error is maybe not the thing with Kanon, that fix the logic, but with Erika.
And also

Therefore, someone following me out of the room after I left doesn't work.

Why the closed room looked like a closed room ?
Because someone seemed to have escaped from it.
Kanon was not in those two closed room.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

And I'm at a bit of a disadvantage, since I'm not sure what theories you and Renall are holding these days.

I'm not committing to any supertheory because at the moment I don't like any of them -- but mind you, I generally don't go out of my way to poke holes in Shkanon either.

There's a very interesting thread of thought I had that equates Beatrice-2 with Asumu, which can nicely explain a large chunk of the underlying mess, but from studying Kyrie's lines in Ep6, it does not fit well and requires a rather large piece of puzzle from Kyrie's side to be complete, which I have so far failed to find.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

That's perfectly fine. I don't have an issue with that, I just want to see solid alternatives to Shkanon.

Kay I found it. Here are some of the alternatives
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=8933

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by DgBarca

Hum...if I remember cleary, with the defnition of the "logic error", the game shall stop when it is commited...

That's interesting.

But Erika actually "files a motion for logic error". If I'm reading the resulting mess correctly, the following order of events actually produces a time stop:

• Human side believes a logic error to exist, i.e. thinks it has been presented with a puzzle that has no solution.
• Impartial referee receives the claim of the human side.
• Impartial referee receives explanations of the witch side.
• If the referee finds the explanations not satisfying, they stop time until the witch side comes up with something else and satisfies the referee, rather than the human side, that a solution exists.

Which means that even if something impossible happens as a result of the actions of the human side player, the logic error still doesn't exist until they file a motion for logic error.

[k//eternal]

Pulling in the board game analogy, if someone cheated at a board game and you noticed, the game would probably stop and possibly turn into some kind of shouting match. If you don't notice, the cheating exists anyway, but no penalty can occur.

That's kind of how I viewed it, except that it was more like setting someone up so that they would end up accidentally cheating, then calling them out on it.

[chronotrig]

What about alternatives to Shkanon for the last two closed rooms, namely the final one? Is there any way for ghost-Erika to explain both of those?

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

What about alternatives to Shkanon for the last two closed rooms, namely the final one? Is there any way for ghost-Erika to explain both of those?

My view on it is that if Genius Battler is true, what had to have happened is when Battler retroactively allowed Erika to seal the room, he also swapped the rooms, so that the room Erika sealed and thinks she saw Battler's corpse in was actually not the room the corpse was in. Erika instead went to the room she sealed. Cheating a no-piece-Erika in this manner is trivial, and Battler actually rewrote the plot, which everyone acknowledged.

Beatrice actually figured it out because the essence of all closed rooms is misdirection -- she rolled back to see which of the starting conditions are not given in red or detective perspective and found this. To prevent this monumental cheating from being discovered, she instead elected to pile more misdirection on, as befits the witch of the closed rooms -- by thinking even further outside the closed room than Gaap explains. So she sent Erika on a wild goose chase by presenting her Kanon as the weakest spot, when it wasn't actually weak or even vulnerable.

I.e. Kanon did go and rescue Battler. In the neighbouring room. Because he didn't know Erika even sealed any rooms.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Kay I found it. Here are some of the alternatives
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=8933

I recently reread through episode 6 with the witch hunt's english patch. Kanon faces the love trial and doesn't run away from it. His behavior does not seem to match that of previous episodes.

I wonder if the significance of the riddle at the end of episode 6 (１７人だ。) is to prove that, contrary to what we were shown in episode 6, someone actually left the island and ran away from the love trial.

Isn't it possible that Kanon choose to run away from the love trial by getting Jessica off the island? Here is the original post I made four months ago:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=6428

Ryukishi said in an interview a while ago:

By now, you probably understand that love is one of the themes of this tale. In that case, you might say that Zepar and Furfur are the demons who control/represent the truth of the main story. There are many very strong hints and clues in what those two say.

There was a short dialog between Zepar and Furfur and Jessica about being sent from the future to help her make the right choice. Now, I know that this was not meant to be taken literally but sometimes I do wonder about that...

I think the red at the end of episode 6 could still be significant if it proves that someone actually did not face the love trial. Then what we were shown throughout episode 6 could just be a happy lie to quickly advance Kanon and Jessica's relationship. I believe that Kanon loves Jessica and I believe that Jessica loves Kanon, but I think the tragedy is that they just didn't have enough time.

Spoiler for Ep7:

With the possibility of episode 7 containing a character that might be a future Jessica (I don't really believe it is future Jessica because of the smile she has on the episode 7 cd case and the lack of breasts) I think it might be worth considering.

Well, that's a possible answer to that riddle that doesn't violate any red truth and is not any variation of Shkanon or Erika-ghost.

Having said all that, I believe some variation of Shkanon is the most likely answer to the riddle. Whatever answer Ryukishi gives us I'll be satisfied with it because I've enjoyed the story so far and I'm confident in his ability.

[Judoh]

Trick. Mistake. Lure.

Taunt. Trap. Laugh together.

......Do you know about this trick...? I think I've seen something like it in a book before....

A lot of the statements toward the end like this one leave things open to multiple interpretations. In particular the part where Erika says 'she can finally accept the truth about herself'. There isn't one single theory that's hinted at by itself.

I'm thinking that unless something like Shkanon was used in another book it would be hard to explain the quote above. So odds are we could all be wrong. And that's what I'm betting on.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Judoh

A lot of the statements toward the end like this one leave things open to multiple interpretations. In particular the part where Erika says 'she can finally accept the truth about herself'. There isn't one single theory that's hinted at by itself.

I'm thinking that unless something like Shkanon was used in another book it would be hard to explain the quote above. So odds are we could all be wrong. And that's what I'm betting on.

I'm sure there are plenty of mystery novels where 2 different people end up as the same person in the end. However, none were mentioned in any episode in this game.

I think you said it before, Higurashi was mentioned but that doesn't count because it's not the same situation. There was actual foreshadowing of Shion and Mion switching identities. There seems to be a lack of that in Umineko for Shannon and Kanon.

[DgBarca]

Kanon is a false name right ? It is his name AS A FURNITURE you can say, right ?
And then, something happened only in this episode that could be an answer.

Kanon was not is the closed room. Because Kanon is the name of a servant. But Yoshiya was.
Of course, the only differences with Kanon the servant and Yoshiya the human is the way he thinks and the name.

So it would say that all red truth with "Kanon" can be dodged, but...no, "Kanon definitively entered in Battler room.

Only one thing could have allowed Yoshiya to threw his title as a servant, it is acknowledging his feelings for Jessica, know love and could be considered as human, and no longer furniture...that mean...be no longer a servant, and this proclamation of "humanity" have been only done is EP6, here."

But in chess that would be impossible...but it would be a normal move in draughts.
Thanks to Shannon, he managed to get to the other side and "upgrade".

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

I agree completely, those people can post other theories instead of poking holes in something that they have no reason to really. The only really 'poking of holes' I see is people saying Shkanon is an opinion and denying it with their own opinions. Which is actually pretty funny because it is a blatant contradiction.

I'd have to agree with poking holes with nothing but pure speculation. But at the same time people presenting a theory should not present wild speculation that goes nowhere. It has to be shown to lead somewhere where the clues can support it.

I think Shkannon has some clues from EP1-4 to support it. But above and beyond that we need to have the logic and the basis (the clues) explained clearly. Or else it will be hard for people to accept.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Yeah, that's a good point. Obviously, I haven't had the time lately (had a bit of translating to do), but I would like to write something up sooner or later, at least for this part. And I'm at a bit of a disadvantage, since I'm not sure what theories you and Renall are holding these days.

Yah, you've been away for awhile. 8) I've put forth the premise that in the case of Umineko and well written detective novels any theories that we put forth to solve the mystery must be supported with clues and that if there's a theory that lacks clues then it is actually most likely not true. Absence of evidence IS evidence of absence in Umineko.

I think the following also applies: that a theory supported from EP1-4 has greater weight than a theory just supported by EP5-6.

I was just unsatisfied with how others, but I myself especially would sabotage my own theories by saying things like, "Well, there's no proof that X was true." or "Well, he could have just been acting nicely." when there was no clue support from EP1-4.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Oliver

My view on it is that if Genius Battler is true, what had to have happened is when Battler retroactively allowed Erika to seal the room, he also swapped the rooms, so that the room Erika sealed and thinks she saw Battler's corpse in was actually not the room the corpse was in. Erika instead went to the room she sealed. Cheating a no-piece-Erika in this manner is trivial, and Battler actually rewrote the plot, which everyone acknowledged.

Beatrice actually figured it out because the essence of all closed rooms is misdirection -- she rolled back to see which of the starting conditions are not given in red or detective perspective and found this. To prevent this monumental cheating from being discovered, she instead elected to pile more misdirection on, as befits the witch of the closed rooms -- by thinking even further outside the closed room than Gaap explains. So she sent Erika on a wild goose chase by presenting her Kanon as the weakest spot, when it wasn't actually weak or even vulnerable.

I.e. Kanon did go and rescue Battler. In the neighbouring room. Because he didn't know Erika even sealed any rooms.

Hmm, but this would mean that Battler can actually change something that Erika saw without telling her about it. If that's the case, all non-red text is useless since the Game Master can just change the entire story without telling the player (let me know if I'm misunderstanding this).

All of the other retroactive changes were made in blind spots or explicitly agreed upon by both sides. This would be a change that Battler not only failed to mention, but never even hinted at. Whereas all the changes Erika made were fully within her rights based upon the seals that Battler agreed to give her.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Hmm, but this would mean that Battler can actually change something that Erika saw without telling her about it. If that's the case, all non-red text is useless since the Game Master can just change the entire story without telling the player (let me know if I'm misunderstanding this).

All of the other retroactive changes were made in blind spots or explicitly agreed upon by both sides. This would be a change that Battler not only failed to mention, but never even hinted at. Whereas all the changes Erika made were fully within her rights based upon the seals that Battler agreed to give her.

If Erika had the detective perspective and her own body to view things with, i.e. an "Erika" that actually washed out onto the shore, that would indeed be an illegal move by Battler and would destroy white text across the board. But my version of ghost-Erika actually explicitly denies that Erika ever has any non-magical white text concerning her - Erika never saw anything herself, the only Erika that exists is a Meta-Erika, and the Erika seemingly on the gameboard does not exist, an illusion created for Erika's benefit by the GM.

Genius Battler is playing the entire charade with Lambdadelta's support with the intent to resurrect Beatrice by making her find the answer herself (which is what Battler gets out of it) and the intent to give Bernkastel the illusion that she understands the game when she actually does not (which Lambdadelta plans to use later on to entrap Bernkastel for good).

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Oliver

If Erika had the detective perspective and her own body to view things with, i.e. an "Erika" that actually washed out onto the shore, that would indeed be an illegal move by Battler and would destroy white text across the board. But my version of ghost-Erika actually explicitly denies that Erika ever has any non-magical white text concerning her - Erika never saw anything herself, the only Erika that exists is a Meta-Erika, and the Erika seemingly on the gameboard does not exist, an illusion created for Erika's benefit by the GM.

Genius Battler is playing the entire charade with Lambdadelta's support with the intent to resurrect Beatrice by making her find the answer herself (which is what Battler gets out of it) and the intent to give Bernkastel the illusion that she understands the game when she actually does not (which Lambdadelta plans to use later on to entrap Bernkastel for good).

Hmm, then how does ghost-Erika survive the "three bodies went into or out of the room" red?

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Hmm, then how does ghost-Erika survive the "three bodies went into or out of the room" red?

Not only that, I'm not sure how most of the non-existant-Erika theories get by
Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Not only that, I'm not sure how most of the non-existant-Erika theories get by
Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.

I swear that you've asked this before and that we've already been through this with you before over and over

. When she washes up she temporarily increases it by one and dies before she can do anything from hypothermia. And alternatively her existence on the gameboard necessitates that another character must be written out of the story to include her in it.

Besides that. Just as she never proclaims she's the detective in this game. She doesn't give a red saying she increases it by one in this game either.

But she doesn't really exist on rokkenjima prime anyway so it's useless it's all useless!.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Hmm, then how does ghost-Erika survive the "three bodies went into or out of the room" red?

Multiple options, mostly working on the assumption of trickery based on associating the Erika-Camera with someone who legitimately holds the name "Erika" or is assigned it for the duration of the game. Notice that the names used to refer to Erika-on-the-board and Meta-Erika do not exactly match, and all characters consistently use different forms for either.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Multiple options, mostly working on the assumption of trickery based on associating the Erika-Camera with someone who legitimately holds the name "Erika" or is assigned it for the duration of the game. Notice that the names used to refer to Erika-on-the-board and Meta-Erika do not exactly match, and all characters consistently use different forms for either.

You can't take other people's names, so being assigned the name of a person who washed up (or died in the ocean nearby) can't be a solution. It would have to be someone whose name is legitimately Furudo Erika, I think, and who isn't the girl from the boat.

[k//eternal]

A theory that states that Erika is a legitimate name of another person on the island as a solution to the three passing through the door needs to address who that is, why they have this name legitimately, and how this was foreshadowed in EP1-4 before it's even on equal footing with Shkanon. Particularly considering that they have a similar basic premise.

Not a bad idea, but needs more meat.