[Manga]Latest Kekkei Genkai...

[s-class uchiha]

Sorry if this question was already answered...

My take on whether Shodai and Yamato have a kekkei genkai.

I say No. The prerequisite condition for a bloodline trait is its ability to be transferred via blood/genetically. It seems for all intents and purposes Shodai was a genetic anomaly and that his Mokuton ability is not one that can be passed down like the sharingan or byukugan. The story may later show that it can be passed down, but b/c none of his relatives (Nidaime or Tsunade) have the trait and considering Yamato had to have Shodai's specific DNA, instead of being able to use his relative's who may have a dormant gene that is not expressed, it seems that it is not proper to call it a bloodline inheritance/kekkei genkai.

PS Granted all Kekkei genkai may start as genetic abnormalities, it is the ability to pass the genetic trait on that makes it an "inheritance."

PS2 But if the Manga calls it a kekkei genkai...

[Agallion]

I've been wondering this:

In order to use a kekki genkai.. you combine two elements.

Now we have seen naruto use shadow clones to add shape manipulation and nature manipulation to the Rasengan..

Would it be conceivable to use shadow clones to combine elements in this manner to surpass the bloodline barrier? Using a shadow clone to add water or some other element to narutos nature element would surely make naruto a strong candidate for hokage, which he strongly needs atm despite the Sage developments.You would think someone like kakashi would have thought of this, however I suppose there could be a charka limit on most people in the narutoverse making this impossible. (IE using a chakara manipulation may be too much for the average shadow clone)

[OtseisRagnarok]

Originally Posted by Agallion

I've been wondering this:

In order to use a kekki genkai.. you combine two elements.

Now we have seen naruto use shadow clones to add shape manipulation and nature manipulation to the Rasengan..

Would it be conceivable to use shadow clones to combine elements in this manner to surpass the bloodline barrier? Using a shadow clone to add water or some other element to narutos nature element would surely make naruto a strong candidate for hokage, which he strongly needs atm despite the Sage developments.You would think someone like kakashi would have thought of this, however I suppose there could be a charka limit on most people in the narutoverse making this impossible. (IE using a chakara manipulation may be too much for the average shadow clone)

However, naruto's chakra is near infinite what ith the sage training, Kyuubi, and his own natural resivoir that has been said to be quite lage in and of itself. He may be a candidate for this ability. After-all hasn't that been how he's been using rasengan this whole time?
But if Kakashi had discovered this, why wouldn't he have shown Naruto?

[Agallion]

Originally Posted by OtseisRagnarok

However, naruto's chakra is near infinite what ith the sage training, Kyuubi, and his own natural resivoir that has been said to be quite lage in and of itself. He may be a candidate for this ability. After-all hasn't that been how he's been using rasengan this whole time?
But if Kakashi had discovered this, why wouldn't he have shown Naruto?

You misunderstand. I wondered why kakashi hasnt thought of this if it was indeed possible, it would seem someone as smart and resourceful as kakashi would have figured it out.

[OtseisRagnarok]

Originally Posted by Agallion

You misunderstand. I wondered why kakashi hasnt thought of this if it was indeed possible, it would seem someone as smart and resourceful as kakashi would have figured it out.

Well, maybe he doesn't have the chakra reserves to test out the theory, so he doesn't bother with it. He does have a sharingan that perpetually drains his chakra.....

[superfreakgeek]

Well i would say he is smart no big deal but i think he did not do it cause he did not have naruto as an example to do it.. naruto is supposedly the first one to use a clone just to make the rasengan as is other people did it with just one hand so kakashi did not think to use another clone then it was just recently he figured out that naruto can use all his shadow clone to learn faster.. he never did cause he did not have the crazy charkra amount so he use naruto as a Ginnie pig cause if he tried it wost case scenario he died, naruto's worst case is he would just get the fox demon to supply him ...... and i think there was a part where kakashi said he still could not do when naruto was fighting the five heart guy.. as for the mixing i think it would be the same as when the third mixed earth with fire when fighting orochimaru it would just be more intence but prob not have the same fusion qualities as wood release

[SuigetsuKun]

Hello, I was just brought here by Hunter - we all know him, don't we. He's a nice guy. What's going on here? I have just come here. He's a nice guy, did I mention that? Well, I am looking for a discussion about forming new elements and which they are. Hunter is a nice guy, isn't he?

I can't find elemental discussions on this page, so I'll just add in my basics here. He's a nice guy and here is what I worked on:

Spoiler for Opening - MANGA WARNING!:

I am currently thinking about all the element fusions... systematically

Water+Earth = Mokuton (Wood)
Water+Wind = Hyuton (Ice)

Lightning+Earth = Shouton (Crystal)

Fire+Earth = Yoton (Magma)

Well, if we get it into order there are three with earth...

Earth +Water / Earth +Fire / Earth+Lightning
... and there's Water+Wind.

In the end, we don't have 25 possibilities, we have less.
Now we cross those who are twice...

Earth + Fire/Lightning/Wind/Water

Water + Earth/Fire/Lightning/Wind

Fire + Earth/Lightning/Water/Wind

Wind + Earth/Fire/Lightning/Water

Lightning + Earth/Fire/Wind/Water


Which makes 10 possible combinations.

Four of them have been revealed:

Fire+Earth=Magma
Water+Wind=Ice
Lightning+Earth=Crystal
Water+Earth=Wood


The other six are:

Wind+Earth
Fire+Water
Lightning+Fire
Wind+Fire
Lightning+Water
Lightning+Wind

I will also respond to you, nice guys and girls, ladies and gentlemen, my dear audience, friends and foes, closebies and faraways...

Originally Posted by Agallion

You misunderstand. I wondered why kakashi hasnt thought of this if it was indeed possible, it would seem someone as smart and resourceful as kakashi would have figured it out.

Kakashi can't use Senjutsu because he doesn't have enough chakra ressources. It has been mentioned that you need a tremendous amount of chakra and Naruto is like multiple Kakashis.

And Kekkei Genkai means bloodline limit and has nothing to do with elemental fusion!
Ice element was passed down by a bloodline limit, but for example Yoton has been tought to the host of the 4-tails by his daemon and Mokuton was a unique occurence which had to be copied by Orochimaru making illegal experiments.

So if we are talking about Kekkei Genkai, this is about people like Uchiha-, Hyuuga- and Nara-clanmembers. We're talking about Haku, Kimimaro... do we agree about that?

Hunter, you're a nice guy.

[That Other Ninja]

Ah my old thread, still kicking.

About elemental fusion, it requires chakra and nature manipulation / spacial recomposition. As stated in the manga, most jounin level ninja have the ability to use two elements seperately. Combining them however is a different ball-game altogether and I forget who it was (Kakashi?) that said combining two elements to form a different, third element is likened to a Kekkei Genkai in its rarity and difficulty to produce.

Now whether that means a ninja like yamato who can combine water and earth to make wood will have a child who can do it inherently without training is a debatable topic. But it can be within reason, if two people who combine elements to make a specific type procreate a progeny with a chance at being able to naturally create a combined element from birth.

Or maybe all it takes is one parent? *shrug*

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

Ah my old thread, still kicking.

About elemental fusion, it requires chakra and nature manipulation / spacial recomposition. As stated in the manga, most jounin level ninja have the ability to use two elements seperately. Combining them however is a different ball-game altogether and I forget who it was (Kakashi?) that said combining two elements to form a different, third element is likened to a Kekkei Genkai in its rarity and difficulty to produce.

Now whether that means a ninja like yamato who can combine water and earth to make wood will have a child who can do it inherently without training is a debatable topic. But it can be within reason, if two people who combine elements to make a specific type procreate a progeny with a chance at being able to naturally create a combined element from birth.

Or maybe all it takes is one parent? *shrug*

Well, I think it rather takes one parent, otherwise, it would pretty likely lead to endogamy, you know? But that's only one way to do it and that was Haku's case. There are others who learned to control new elements and to make them fuse. They are the avantgarde of element users and they keep appearing and disappearing.
I still wonder if there's a descendant of Tsunade. I mean there must have been one. If the 1st Hokage was Tsunade's grandfather, then it means that Tsunade had a father or a mother, well of course she had both, but one of her parents must be the direct descendant of the 1st Hokage.
Yet it's been said that only he could use Mokuton, but this ability has been stored inside his DNA, so that Yamato, born from Orochimaru's experiments, can use Mokuton while Tsunade can't.

[That Other Ninja]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Well, I think it rather takes one parent, otherwise, it would pretty likely lead to endogamy, you know? But that's only one way to do it and that was Haku's case. There are others who learned to control new elements and to make them fuse. They are the avantgarde of element users and they keep appearing and disappearing.
I still wonder if there's a descendant of Tsunade. I mean there must have been one. If the 1st Hokage was Tsunade's grandfather, then it means that Tsunade had a father or a mother, well of course she had both, but one of her parents must be the direct descendant of the 1st Hokage.
Yet it's been said that only he could use Mokuton, but this ability has been stored inside his DNA, so that Yamato, born from Orochimaru's experiments, can use Mokuton while Tsunade can't.

The factor we're probably not taking into account is time. It takes a long time for a mutation to become predominant within a closed environment like a "clan", as we are aware the Hyuuga and Uchiha have all been around for many generations.

So that brings into question how old the Senju clan was. Were they just a rag-tag group of different bodies that came together, or were they around for a long time, breeding and perfecting any inherent unique traits specifically within their own circle? It doesn't seem the case if only Shodaime could use Mokuton, UNLESS the unique trait shared among them wasn't Mokuton but something else entirely that we aren't as of yet aware of.

Maybe they just didn't have any mutagenic dna and specialized in something secret but not genetic, like the Aburame.

[Kishimyu]

Maybe Mokuton is a kekkei genkai that only appears in the clan in one person every few generations like Kimmimaro's; he was the only one from his clan who could use it

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Kishimyu

Maybe Mokuton is a kekkei genkai that only appears in the clan in one person every few generations like Kimmimaro's; he was the only one from his clan who could use it

There seemed to be other members of the Kaguya clan that possessed the bloodline (or at least I do not think there was any specific indication in the manga that other members did not have the bloodline), but Kimimaro had the greatest gift with the bloodline, with powers far exceeding his clansmen (like ripping out his Spine and using it as a weapon ).

[Kishimyu]

hmm...if so then wouldnt that mean Tsunade may be able to use Mokuton, but just hasnt trained that specific skill?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Kishimyu

hmm...if so then wouldnt that mean Tsunade may be able to use Mokuton, but just hasnt trained that specific skill?

Mokuton doesn't necessarily have to be a bloodline limit. Elements can be added together, it is just extraordinarily hard. Case and point, the Jinchuuriki of the 4 Tail (whose name was Roshi) invented Lava techniques which were composed of equal parts Earth and Fire.

But, since Yamato can easily utilize Mokuton, Roshi's path seems unlikely. So, maybe Mokuton only appears in male carriers? In the end, Kishimoto still hasn't revealed exactly what Mokuton is...maybe to give Tsunade that extra "boost" in her possible up-coming fight .

That being said, Mokuton as an elemental bloodline is not necessarily comparable to Shikotsumyaku which is a body-type bloodline.

[SuigetsuKun]

Originally Posted by james0246

Mokuton doesn't necessarily have to be a bloodline limit. Elements can be added together, it is just extraordinarily hard. Case and point, the Jinchuuriki of the 4 Tail (whose name was Roshi) invented Lava techniques which were composed of equal parts Earth and Fire.

But, since Yamato can easily utilize Mokuton, Roshi's path seems unlikely. So, maybe Mokuton only appears in male carriers? In the end, Kishimoto still hasn't revealed exactly what Mokuton is...maybe to give Tsunade that extra "boost" in her possible up-coming fight .

That being said, Mokuton as an elemental bloodline is not necessarily comparable to Shikotsumyaku which is a body-type bloodline.

Maybe Mokuton is also activated like Sharingan.
Even Sharingan does not appear in every Uchiha. In the first episodes, when it was revealed that Kakashi has a Sharingan, Sasuke said it only appears in few select members of the Uchiha clan.
Maybe these are the police force members we've seen.

I am also a little confused because Sasuke's / Itachi's father actually had brown hair and the Sharingan. His mother was the one who looked like Madara and his brother with black hair and black eyes which apparently is the strongest phenotype I guess.


Well, it would be uber-imba-pwng3-awesome if Tsunade could use mokuton. It would immediately push her powerlevel right through the roof and she'd be at Jiraiya's level concerning fighting skills. A superior healer with mokuton? That would mean she could use earth, water and wood element in fighting and she could just grow branches out of her body...

[OtseisRagnarok]

Originally Posted by SuigetsuKun

Maybe Mokuton is also activated like Sharingan.
Even Sharingan does not appear in every Uchiha. In the first episodes, when it was revealed that Kakashi has a Sharingan, Sasuke said it only appears in few select members of the Uchiha clan.
Maybe these are the police force members we've seen.

Why wouldn't the police force have sharingan? Wouldn't that be a great asset for a cop? You can predict the movements of your criminals.

Originally Posted by SuigetsuKun

I am also a little confused because Sasuke's / Itachi's father actually had brown hair and the Sharingan. His mother was the one who looked like Madara and his brother with black hair and black eyes which apparently is the strongest phenotype I guess.

Well, the coloration came from the anime, correct? We all know how well that works for establishing cannon....

Originally Posted by SuigetsuKun

Well, it would be uber-imba-pwng3-awesome if Tsunade could use mokuton. It would immediately push her powerlevel right through the roof and she'd be at Jiraiya's level concerning fighting skills. A superior healer with mokuton? That would mean she could use earth, water and wood element in fighting and she could just grow branches out of her body...

*shudders at the mental image*

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

Mokuton doesn't necessarily have to be a bloodline limit. Elements can be added together, it is just extraordinarily hard. Case and point, the Jinchuuriki of the 4 Tail (whose name was Roshi) invented Lava techniques which were composed of equal parts Earth and Fire.

Yes it has and yes it is. Element cannot be mixed together like that.
The fact that the 4th Jinchuuriki used such jutsu only means he either had a bloodline or that his Bijuu specifically allowed him to do so.

[Kenshin_Uchiha]

Kakashi said it himself, not gonna search for the quote though, and yeah the lava element isn't really important since it was introduced in the anime.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Yes it has and yes it is. Element cannot be mixed together like that.
The fact that the 4th Jinchuuriki used such jutsu only means he either had a bloodline or that his Bijuu specifically allowed him to do so.

Roashi is probably circumstantial evidence (of affinities and bloodlines); an outlying data point of sorts.

I can believe that the only reason that Roshi was able to create the techniques was due to the Yonbi (much the same as Gaara using Sand, or Naruto using Rasenshuriken (which is probably impossible for a other humans/shinobis)), but the Data Books implied that Roshi had to create the techniques, not simply learn them, as a bloodline limit would allow the user to "learn" their elemental affinities techniques.

@Kenshin_Uchiha, Roshi was the old man that contained the Yonbi that Kishimoto casually shows defeated after a fight with Kisame. We learned in the data book that Roshi developed Lava Techniques. So, technically, Lava is a canon element, but, probably like Sand, it is Jinchuuriki exclusive.

[Kenshin_Uchiha]

Didn't remember it was in the DB. Isn't gaara still able to use the sand?