2013-01-25, 09:13 | Link #31741 | ||||||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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I'm not a fan of Hanyuu either, actually, for the same reason you aren't. I can't see Hanyuu as a retcon, though, since if you reread you can see her influence even in Onikakushi-hen. On the other hand, assuming Ikuko=random we have no idea when Ryukishi thought her up. Quote:
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I think most people just chalk EP7 up as inexplicable magic meta-bullshit that's completely unrelated to anything that happens in the real world, existing solely to give the audience answers (meanwhile the Tea Party's existence is not unrelated to the real world at all). I don't like this viewpoint. I'm very inclined to view the events of the meta-world to be symbolic of events that happen in the real world. Otherwise, why should we even care about the meta-world? That being said, I think Will, being both well-versed in, yet unrelated to, Rokkenjima and trapped in a situation where he is forced to solve the stories... fits Touya's profile quite well. I get tired of people saying that Ikuko=Yasu is just for people who want "that kind of ending". I can't speak for other supporters of the idea, but for me it has a lot more to do with its explanatory power over the meta-world than anything else. You say "only", but romantic/sexual acknowledgement is one of our most primal desires as human beings. Not having it leaves a profound lack of fulfillment. And we're talking about Yasu here; no one has a stronger love complex than she does. |
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2013-01-25, 09:48 | Link #31742 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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At least in the instance of a Random!Ikuko, you're dealing with a person whose primary focus is Tohya himself, with Battler's existence being at best a curiosity. To a Yasu!Ikuko, Tohya is not the most important person in the relationship, Battler is. Tohya's existence will always be a third wheel to such a person. While it doesn't exactly make Ikuko a saint, it at least excuses some of her actions, while the alternative is some David Lynch-ass shit.
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2013-01-25, 11:11 | Link #31744 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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As for the whole issue of Ikuko being Yasu though, I'd like it if she was the actual culprit. Just straight up batshit insane killed everyone, Battler lost his mind and she took him to try and make him accept her. Battler suffering from severe PTSD and Stockholm Syndrome. All the talk about tsundere was a red herring, Yasu was always yandere. The idea that she wasn't the culprit and became the lynch pin on the issue fits better if she had actually died. Having her alive, actually remember everything and actively trying to pursue a relationship with the person that was Battler seems extremely creepy. Something a mentally unstable person would do. Which I guess is entirely possible given who we are talking about. |
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2013-01-25, 12:48 | Link #31745 |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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Maybe Ikuko thought she was doing Tohya a favor by trying to get him to 'become Battler again'? I don't doubt that if Yasu is Ikuko, she's acting for her own gain, but perhaps she thought it was best if Battler regain his memories. It could have been an honest intention at first; I don't think she could have known what it would do to him.
...Well, then again, she should have stopped after his recollections drove him to attempt suicide. |
2013-01-25, 12:58 | Link #31746 | ||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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If the info is true but came out of nowhere... it's poor writing as far as I'm involved. Genji could also know Kinzo's story and he could have told Yasu about it, same with Nanjo and Kumasawa might have added other parts to the story. It's likely Yasu made questions after finding out who was her dad. Plus she could have heard gossips and Kinzo rambling about his past. The problem is passing all those info to Battler so that he could place them in his tales. It should have taken time. Quote:
At the beginning maybe he wasn't so scared, just intrigued and could have developed an interest in Rokkenjima due to it and she could have supported him thinking it could have been equally nice if he were to remember... and only later, when Tohya started being scared by his own memories she might have realized her mistake. Honestly, I tend to think if Yasu is anything like Beatrice she probably isn't good at judging what can hurt a person. It makes her dense, not evil. And anyway we're speculating on something over which we know too little. Once Ryukishi said we had a poor opinion of Kinzo due to what he did to his daughter but we didn't really know how things in Kuwadorian were and, in a way, all the hints about life in Kuwadorian might come from sources who're biased. Maybe it was Kuwadorian Beato who seduced Kinzo but no one could picture her doing this so they passed the story placing the blame on Kinzo (I'm not going to believe Kinzo is innocent though but maybe he didn't force Beato as much as it looks... though he's still to blame for keeping her trapped there) With Ikuko the problem is even bigger as there's basically nearly no story passed. We've a summary of what went on given by Tohya in which we don't know if we can't believe and in which, although he admit he suspected Ikuko for being responsible for his incident, he never blamed her for anything else. He didn't accuse her of keeping him trapped not of mentally toying with him. Sure, she covered up the fact she found and helped him but, apparently, Battler could leave when he wanted. It's possible she lied to him, saying 'oh, I told the police to search if you've a family' but we've no info about this. Quote:
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The problem here is: is Yasu also tied to Rokkenjima? While Shannon's wish to leave Rokkenjima might be more an imposition from George, Yasu came up on her own with the idea to leave it when she was a child and talking with Battler. Though probably to leave Rokkenjima Yasu would have to destroy her 'witch of Rokkenjima' identity as well as her 'perfect maid of the Ushiromiya' identity. Anyway this is just speculation. We cannnot prove Yasu would be unable to leave and assume another identity. We cannot prove how much of Shannon there's in Yasu and vice versa. After all Yasu, Kanon and Shannon all have different love interests so they are definitely different even in matters that can be important. Quote:
Battler/Tohya isn't forced to stay with Ikuko against his own will. He defines himself as satisfied with his life. And he probably wrote Banquet, Alliance and End (and maybe Dawn) of his own will. And she didn't look like she was having fun when he was in pain. |
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2013-01-25, 13:18 | Link #31747 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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It would be kind of interesting if Meta-Battler's "death" and subsequent soul-searching during the trial in EP5 corresponded to the suicide attempt.
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2013-01-25, 13:34 | Link #31748 | ||
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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--- After looking through the script i saw that Battler was "sleeping on the public highway". How did he get there? It sounds strange that the place he passed out on is a highway... So if Battler really escaped alone: He would have to be in a state where he has no bigger problems to move around but was about to collapse any moment. And he would also have gotten, either by the car incident or by something that happened on Rokkenjima, a "brain damage". The more I think about it, the more I get the feeling, that aside from which theory may be right after all, that R07 was just lazy and didn't take his time for the Tohya/Battler backstory at all.
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2013-01-25, 13:39 | Link #31749 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Um clearly Battler suffered a brain injury in 1986 which gave him chronic narcolepsy, which is why he keeps passing out in dangerous or inopportune places and also explains why Featherine enjoys sleeping so much (because Tohya can't stay awake if he isn't being physically or mentally active).
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2013-01-25, 14:58 | Link #31750 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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I guess the test is deliberately vague... though the doctor have an excuse. If he thinks Tohya was involved in a car incident he's automatically going to blame it for Tohya's damage even if the cause was... let's say someone slamming some gold from Kinzo's collection on his head. As for the wheelchair: Quote:
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- Tohya was confuse or delirious so actually his whole meeting with Ikuko was different and Ikuko lied over it. - Battler was trying to reach some place to ask for help but it was raining and maybe was late and he didn't realize a car was coming. He was hit by a car and later he's found by Ikuko. - Battler was under shock so he walked without aim and ended up there where a car hit him. Later he's found by Ikuko. - He was actually hit by Ikuko. She however was afraid of consequences and that's why she bribed the doctor to keep silent. Since she still feel guilty she also helped Battler. Also she had her car repaired so when Battler looked at it he couldn't see any damage. - Battler was never hit by a car. He managed to escape from Rokkenjima but he was injuried and ended up fainting. When Ikuko found him on the highway she assumed he'd been run over by a car because it seemed the easier explanation. - Battler escaped by Rokkenjima just fine but when he reached land and tried to ask for help he was attacked by street tugs and injured or forced to escape until he got hit by a car... and we can go on and on. We can even assume that actually the incident happened years later the Rokkenjima incident and that prior to it Battler was hiding for unknown reasons (he believed Eva was the killer, he was afraid since his parents were the killers he would be considered an accomplice as well, the whole thing shocked him so much it nearly drove him to madness so he began living on the streets, Yasu really kidnapped him and began living as Ikuko then, when he tried to escape he was so lucky he ended up being hit by a car/her car and lose his memory and so on) as he says he believed to be 18 yet this didn't sit well with him as he didn't feel 18 (which can of course be a mere feeling and not the truth... but it allows us to speculate if it's supposed to be a hint). Quote:
People can even walk away from an incident apparently just fine then die hours later because actually there was brain damage and it became fatal with time. It really depends on the damage he reported. Also, if the damage was psychological the body would have been just fine but the brain might have been unable to realize where he was heading or that a car was about to hit him. Really, it's all too vague to make assumptions about what was Battler doing on a highway in a rainy day/night (maybe night as Battler at first was able to see only Ikuko's car's lights)... Quote:
There were ways to make his backstory look more like the truth than something so... blurry but he purposely let it blurry. My feeling is that, like what happened in Rokkenjima Prime, he simply didn't want to give us a clear idea of what had happened to Battler. Quote:
Really, the whole Rokkenjima Prime is too vague. It allows us to endless speculations. |
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2013-01-25, 17:53 | Link #31751 | ||||||||||
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Also, the difference between Random=Ikuko and Yasu=Ikuko is like ... like between adopting a cat you see on the street, and taking your neighbors cat that happened to be on the street. The action is the same, and you can treat the cat very gently and it may looooove living with you, but the context of the prior relationship carries some weight, y'know? Quote:
[QUOTE=jjblue1;4527547]Personally, more than being lazy, I think Ryukishi simply didn't want to write it. There were ways to make his backstory look more like the truth than something so... blurry but he purposely let it blurry. My feeling is that, like what happened in Rokkenjima Prime, he simply didn't want to give us a clear idea of what had happened to Battler.[.quote] I can agree with this ... though if that's how he felt about it, I think it'd have been better to just have Tohya show up in the EP8 ???. Quote:
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2013-01-25, 18:38 | Link #31752 | |||||
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If somebody could be so kind looking through that part of the script, it'd help immensely. Quote:
Concerning that I find it interesting on the other hand how many people ignore what the actual meta-plotline of Requiem is. This is not a story presented by Ikuko/Touya/Featherine, this is a preparation of pieces presented TO Featherine by Bernkastel. I would agree that EP7 can be inserted into real life events as well, but I would rather assume it to be the general collection of evidence. It is important that the acting characters are NOT the usual cast after all. |
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2013-01-25, 21:55 | Link #31754 | ||||||||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Then we know Tohya woke up and found Ikuko reading on the pc some info on Rokkenjima and he started remembering something. We also know he wrote at least 3/6 books, some of which apparently before Ange disappeared. We never know what's going on in Ikuko's mind. When Ange sees Battler he doesn't look like he is in a bad relation with Ikuko. We don't know why she happened to mention Rokkenjima the first time, although apparently Tohya wasn't affected by it at all but in the second it seems entirely casual Tohya discovers her at the pc and he's the one showing interest in what she was looking at. When she explains and he starts showing signs of distress she stops. So where do you see evidence in how she purposely tortured Battler with it? She even offered him to have brain surgery earlier to stop his headaches and she even supported the idea he should met Ange when Ange asked to met him. Tohya even went to various hospitals. If we can claim Ikuko's behaviour toward him wasn't correct as she tried to keep the incident hidden, well, apparently afterward she tried to redeem herself by offering him medical care and trying to help him to reunite with his family. Quote:
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It's OBVIOUS that in the games Kinzo took advantage of Kuwadorian Beato and that she wasn't interested in him as a man, that she suffered at being trapped there. We can't be sure the same happened in Prime as who's telling us the story isn't Kuwadorian Beato but, at best, someone who heard it from someone else who heard it from someone else (Tohya who heard it from Yasu who heard it by the servants... if the servants felt like telling her that her father abused/took advantage of her mother... if they didn't it becomes entirely Yasu's speculation). Kuwadorian Beato's true feelings are a catbox. Personally I think that Kinzo took advantage of her even in Prime but the point is we can't prove that what happened in the games happened in Prime as well. So what I think is just my theory of a truth of the game applying in Prime as well. Is this any clearer? Quote:
Said this, I wouldn't believe in a theory that see Tohya as planning Ikuko's murder but this doesn't make your theory something I can deny with the elements at hand. Same as in Ep 5 it's possible to make a Battler culprit theory, a revised Natsuhi culprit theory (erika's theory was accepted after it got revised) and a Yasu culprit theory (and maybe there's also a Rosa or George culprit theory? I've no idea what Knownomore says about Ep 5). Quote:
- Shannon would kill herself and with her death Kanon would disappear - Shannon would leave with George and with this Kanon would disappear (implied by the love duel) - Shannon would leave without George and with her Kanon (or she would leave alone and Kanon would disappear). So theoretically PieceShannon too could and would leave if certain conditions were met. So why should we assume Prime Yasu wouldn't be capable to do it? Quote:
When Tohya became an author he likely had money enough to rent an appartment. He was allowed to meet outside people, doctors, editors, he could have met even Ange if he wanted to and he'll met her when he'll want to. Maybe he could even use Ikuko's pc as there's no hint he's not allowed to use it. He could have asked for help if he felt trapped. His situation is pretty different from Beato who's basically cut out of the world and lives with the only company of Kinzo's servants who likely doesn't let her do anything that Kinzo wouldn't want her to do. Quote:
Because from what you're writing now it seems Tohya put it in his story not because it was true but because it was a metaphor for his condition. Quote:
You're assuming Yasu knows Battler has a loving family waiting for him and that nothing will happen to him if he were to return to his own life. As we don't know what happened on Prime and what Yasu knows about it she might have tried to protect Battler from Eva, believing her the culprit, or Battler from being arrested as he is the culprit/could be suspected to be the culprit. Basically you're trying to built the theory that Yasu is evil in what she does by using more theories as premises. If we can't prove the premises of a theory how can we sure the theory is right? Sure, IF Battler is innocent and can't be suspected and IF she knows Eva is a loving aunt who'd love to have him back and IF she'd been sure the environment in which he would live with Eva and Ange would be the best for him (doubtful as Eva was having serious troubles at the time and although Ange claimed she wanted her brother back we don't know if she'll be happy with one that doesn't remember her and that's injured. She's a very young kid who lost her parents after all, we can't expect her to play nurse.), she's a jerk at keeping the truth hidden from him. Can we prove any of the above? Nope. So why to state that a person is mean according to a theory that can't be proved? If and when we'll have more material to work with that'll say that Yasu and she KNEW this, this and that, then I'll say that if Ikuko is Yasu she's a jerk. First however I need the premise to be proved. Quote:
Actually I think it's more likely in this case he let more options open because to get the exact medical conditions for a certain situation is pretty hard (and a friend of mine who studied psychology said that if the amnesia is regressive it shouldn't have lasted that much...). For the series House, M.D. people likely made research and yet I've found a web page in which doctors had fun analyzing it and pointing out all the medical errors (they weren't so much but there were some). So really, if Ryukishi didn't want to get in troubles with medical problems that weren't realistic enough I don't blame him. Quote:
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I just don't trust EVERYTHING in Umineko at face value, especially if they're only speculations over something over which we had really few info. And anyway we weren't talking about me but about Umineko. No need to speculate about me. Also Rokkenjima Prime IS vague. Skipping Ikuko we can't even tell if Ange died on Rokkenjima, died by jumping off a building, killed Amakusa and Kuwabata or become Yukari FOR SURE. |
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2013-01-25, 22:44 | Link #31755 | |
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She must have taken his sudden fits as something productive or she would have unlikely changed her whole concept into writing about Rokkenjima directly, going so far as to write in the style of the message bottles. This is excatly what would make a Yasu-Ikuko insanely evil, because she'd be simply willfully continuing to torture Battler, exactly in the sense of "this is the torture that will torment you for all eternity", for the sake of her game. If Ikuko was just a Witch Hunter, she'd be doing it at least only out of curiosity and maybe with some belief that it is better to know than not to. She'd be morally questionable in that she clearly seems fine with letting somebody suffer for the sake of 'her' art, but it would be as much her quest for the truth as Touya's. |
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2013-01-25, 23:27 | Link #31756 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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And writing copying Maria's style was the premise for the forgeries, if I'm not wrong it as also said in Ep 4. And we don't know how she reacted to his fits nor if she continued to push Rokkenjima material onto him even if he was unwilling to read it. Tohya rejected the idea he was Battler so he could have rejected any suggestion of dropping the Rokkenjima argument. Or he could have written the drafts for the books after he recovered his memory as he's in charge for the drafting. Or while he was trying to deny he wasn't Battler as a way to prove himself he wasn't. Even if it was Yasu that caused his memory to begin returning... there's no proof she forced him to write regardless from her being Yasu or not. Or that she meant harm to Battler. And anyway I note that are two the accusations that are moved to Ikuko-Yasu: One that she hid the truth to him therefore hampering his process of recovering his memory, the other that she tried to make him recover his memory. In short, whatever she does it's evil. Also there's plenty of people that manage to recover their memory without having fits that cause them to end up on wheelchairs or worse and I don't think Ikuko had a medical degree or experience with amnesiac patients. Considering that previously Tohya was trying to recover his memory and we don't know when he stopped due to his headache and if he told Ikuko he didn't want to remember anymore there's also the chance that, if and I'm saying if, she encoraged the return of her memory, she did it under the belief it was what he wanted and that wouldn't cause him harm. Really, it's entirely possible Ikuko was purely evil regardless of her identity in what she did with Tohya, but it's also possible she didn't have ill intentions toward him and that things simply turned out wrong. Quote:
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2013-01-26, 00:42 | Link #31757 | ||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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So what we have is a person who:
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In other words, Touya willfully allowed himself to be "tortured", which makes me wonder if it's appropriate to even call it "torture" in the first place. |
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2013-01-26, 04:36 | Link #31758 | |||
The True Culprit
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Apparently, Battler learning the truth is not sufficient because he did that after Beatrice died (already mirroring Touya's understanding). I would wager that Will represents a well-meaning non-goat who understands Yasu without having any personal connection to her, and all the other stuff is just for the sake of the episode narrative. Toya's not being pinched in the ass, afterall, or was he asked to abandon shit with threats of violence and then stayed involved anyway. Quote:
But Toya's arm WAS twisted. Ikuko exposed him to it and kept prodding him to give it a chance, and once he was involved he was guilt-tripped by recollections of Ange. He even confesses that he spent years trying to remember enough so that he could atleast give Ange a proper apology. And if Ikuko is Yasu, then she's pretty much a sociopath.
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2013-01-26, 06:43 | Link #31759 |
Endless Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Has Ryu07 ever alluded or alluded to the Ikuko=Yasu theory before? I wonder if its just a completely unintentional thing that people are coming up, or if Ryu07 believed that people would theorize this when writing Episode 8.
He seemed to have wanted people to talk about Umineko for a long time, so... |
2013-01-26, 07:51 | Link #31760 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Ryukishi didn't gave us solutions for all his misteries and sometimes he deliberately seemed to have fun if readers could come up with more solutions (like the thing about Battler's letter in which he, more or less, let everyone free to come up with his solution). That's why I'm waiting for more info in Ep 8. |
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