Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Charlotte has been shipped with Mami before, you know.

Which is incredibly silly when you stop and think about it. A fandom that engages in this sort of thing arguably deserves to be ribbed a bit.

Also, it's not like Homura being a yandere wasn't a thing in fanfiction (hell, it was a thing in fanart even before the show was halfway over), it's just that Rebellion takes it much further than a fan would feel comfortable doing...

Which is kind of the point, imo. If I was a creator that wanted to mock a fan interpretation that I disliked, I might be tempted to do exactly the sort of thing that was done in this movie.

The thing that makes me suspicious of the notion that the movie is intended as this big, like, HA HA SERVES YOU FANS RIGHT FOR SHIPPING EFFECTIVELY OFFICIAL PAIRINGS SO HARD, HA HA is that the staff themselves are obviously fans.

Even fans can disagree on this sort of thing. I've always disliked the pantyhead Homura meme, for example. And I know I'm not the only Madoka Magica fan that feels that way about it.

As for "effectively official"... Really? Madoka never reciprocated anything but friendship to Homura. Sayaka never reciprocated much of anything period to Kyouko. In the TV series I mean. Fans went and ran with KyouSaya on very little canon basis when you stop to think about it.

[Tyabann]

I really, really don't think that any of the staff "hate" the fans. Pretty much everything that feels like fanfiction in Rebellion feels that way because it's a nod to all the fanworks that the series spawned... while it toys with the typical fan interpretations somewhat, it doesn't feel like it's doing so maliciously so much as playfully, Homura's actions aside.
I think you guys have the wrong idea about Urobuchi, in particular.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

As for "effectively official"... Really? Madoka never reciprocated anything but friendship to Homura. Sayaka never reciprocated much of anything period to Kyouko. In the TV series I mean. Fans went and ran with KyouSaya on very little canon basis when you stop to think about it.

Oh please, I know you've watched yuriesque iyashikei anime before, the shipping in Madoka is very much intended, KyouSaya included. Just look at the ED for BD episode 9.
Ume ships them too, for what it's worth.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I really, really don't think that any of the staff "hate" the fans.

I think you might be taking Archon's words a bit too literally. I think that Archon was exaggerating a bit for comedic effect. I don't think this is about hating the fans. You can poke fun at silly ideas and fan theories without hating the people who came up with them. It probably is more playful than malicious.

Pretty much everything that feels like fanfiction in Rebellion feels that way because it's a nod to all the fanworks that the series spawned...

Not necessarily. It could be poking fun at a lot of those fanworks.

Oh please, I know you've watched yuriesque iyashikei anime before, the shipping in Madoka is very much intended, KyouSaya included.

There's a difference between teasing fans and giving them a full-fledged pairing. Madoka Magica the TV series is teasing at most (well, except for Homura's feelings for Madoka, which come across very strongly within the narrative itself). It's not even close to actual canon. Come on now, if you had to come up with a good canon basis for KyouSaya prior to this movie, it would be pretty hard to do it, and you and I both know it. So some of your arguments are pretty overstated.

[silvercover]

^you can say that again.

im an avid yuri fan, doesnt quite show here though, but if you visited mangafox forums you'll see me pushing forward with a yuri signature.

anyways, while the pairings in madoka magica have plenty of potential, got say that there's not really that much of a proper relationship you can say. hell, throughout the anime series, the only pairing in my head was madokaXsayaka, the others ive got to say, didnt really pique my interest or at least didnt get me impressed.

heck, this whole shipping thing in madoka magica, ive got to say, is really causing a decay on the series.

you know how sayaka's got her own brand of haters? well, would you be surprised that a lot of those are kyoukoXsayaka shippers, or at least kyouko fans? yes, that indeed. I even have a friend here who loathes sayaka as a whole, with her biggest reasons being that sayaka apparently is at fault for getting kyouko killed, and that she should have gotten up with kyouko.
this is another reason for me not to support their ship, as its only for kyouko and not for sayaka. oh sure, it may be healthier, but this isnt what sayaka likes/wanted to do.

among the pairings really, the ones who were more close to actually end up going somewhere, would be madokaXsayaka(while in their heaven) and mamiXkyouko(if you've read the different story to learn about their history).

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I wish people would stop pretending

I agree, it's wrong to pretend that I am wrong.

Originally Posted by GDB

Pretty sure Fate/Zero would disagree with you. In fact, I watched this series because of his reputation from Fate/Zero, so...

I know a lot of your post, especially the italics, were tongue-in-cheek, but just wanted to point that out.

You know, someone immediately reminded me of this too and that is very true. I'm just going to say that Homura was insane at that point and is just babbling self centered nonsense.

The origin for the text is from Hulk Hogan, whose character made a villainous turn which decided that everything good about the show belonged to him to create an angry reaction. At the point of its creation, nobody had imagined such a thing possible as it was a severe contrast to the existing character. Not that you should care at this point, but I do indeed make tons of inane references and shouldn't really get mad when people don't get them.

[Shyni]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Come on now, if you had to come up with a good canon basis for KyouSaya prior to this movie, it would be pretty hard to do it, and you and I both know it.

Yeah, I have to agree here. In the show itself, Sayaka's attitude towards Kyouko was almost always negative, except right at the end of episode 8 when she was too miserable to acually express anger at anyone. (And I guess she was more okay towards Kyouko when by the epilogue, but they didn't actually have any scenes together).

[silvercover]

the whole scenery in the first quarter was pretty much catering to the audience rather than for a good reason. it was pretty much due to the fake world though so I ended up letting that part go instead of criticizing it.
and the scene with sayaka saying she regretted kyouko could be interpreted as just her knowing the extent kyouko has done as well as spending time with her... while its also pretty easy to tell that kyouko is a lot more affected by sayaka, so I can see it being a one sided matter.

as a side note, this does say quite a bit about homura
she pictured a world where kyousuke and hitomi got together while kyouko was made to end up with sayaka there....

[Tyabann]

This is actually in the show and as a result you really shouldn't try to argue that the pairing isn't supposed to be taken seriously.

[AuraTwilight]

Okay except that was added to the credits for the DVD release long after the initial broadcast of the TV series. It's not necessarily indicative of anything in the original intent, which is why the original TV show was brought up.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Okay except that was added to the credits for the DVD release long after the initial broadcast of the TV series.

BD release versions are usually considered the final versions, especially for Shaft shows which tend to have unfinished TV broadcasts.
Clearly the exception is when claiming otherwise supports your argument.

[Archon_Wing]

Kyosaya only makes sense in the movie, as series Sayaka was already declining into a witch and had no chance to reciprocate. It is entirely possible it was one sided from Kyoko to Sayaka, since Kyoko really felt bad for her, started to slowly relate to the situation and did not want Sayaka to die alone.

On the other hand, the movie has Sayaka retaining her knowledge of past events, so now she has a chance to go over her feelings. Personally, I think this possible pairing was presented better than the other one.

[TheSix]

Two people whose character arcs closely parallel each other in the manner shown in the series doesn't equal a canon romantic relationship, it equals effective storytelling.

Yes, Kyoko and Sayaka care for each other. Yes, Kyoko wants to save her at all costs. Yes, they have official art where it appears the former is trying to save the latter from drowning through physical contact. This does not mean that they have an official romantic relationship. You can ship them if you like, but just because two girls care for each other does not mean their relationship is romantic, especially when the reasons for how much they care about each other are outlined elsewhere within the series, and especially when one of them has romantic feelings for another character, even if they were also entirely selfish ones.

[ReinWeiss]

Originally Posted by TheSix

Two people whose character arcs closely parallel each other in the manner shown in the series doesn't equal a canon romantic relationship, it equals effective storytelling.

Yes, Kyoko and Sayaka care for each other. Yes, Kyoko wants to save her at all costs. Yes, they have official art where it appears the former is trying to save the latter from drowning through physical contact. This does not mean that they have an official romantic relationship. You can ship them if you like, but just because two girls care for each other does not mean their relationship is romantic, especially when the reasons for how much they care about each other are outlined elsewhere within the series, and especially when one of them has romantic feelings for another character, even if they were also entirely selfish ones.

And sometimes they do.

Why are you so devoted to the idea that they aren't lesbians? Especially Homura, who's entire character arc revolves around how much she loves Madoka?

If Homura were male (and her character type easily could be) no one would doubt that she loved Madoka. I hate having to go to that point, but it really does take that for some people to get it.

As for Sakura and Kyouko, they have a love-song duet ending episode 9. Thats sorta...yeah.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Kyosaya only makes sense in the movie, as series Sayaka was already declining into a witch and had no chance to reciprocate.

Well yeah, that's the whole tragedy of it, basically.

[ReinWeiss]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Well yeah, that's the whole tragedy of it, basically.

Even more so, the way I see it, Kyouko only really understood how she herself felt right there at the very last moment. You can basically see her finally understanding why she's doing this, just as she's about to deliver her final blow.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

BD release versions are usually considered the final versions, especially for Shaft shows which tend to have unfinished TV broadcasts.
Clearly the exception is when claiming otherwise supports your argument.

For the record, I may not be able to vouch for anyone else but I'm personally pretty consistent on holding the original releases as reflections of the original authorial intent. Urobuchi and the other writers aren't exactly consulted on things like character songs or some of the art direction. We're looking at you, Amy.

And sometimes they do.

Why are you so devoted to the idea that they aren't lesbians? Especially Homura, who's entire character arc revolves around how much she loves Madoka?

If Homura were male (and her character type easily could be) no one would doubt that she loved Madoka. I hate having to go to that point, but it really does take that for some people to get it.

As for Sakura and Kyouko, they have a love-song duet ending episode 9. Thats sorta...yeah.

The duet has non-romantic interpretations too, just sayin'.

And while I won't speak for TheSix, we seem to be on the same wavelength, and I'll just say right out that while Homura is totally in rabu with Madoka (Urobuchi has answered that issue with a 'probably'), it's also pretty evident that Madoka doesn't reciprocate except maybe after becoming a goddess.

But, like with Kyosaya, that's basically pandering. And as a homosexual I have to admit that I basically find this whole trend in general to be pretty goddamn disgusting. It's not new to Puella Magi or even anime or even fiction, but I find it pretty gross that everyone has to force every strong emotional dependency or connection in fiction as being completely and totally romantic.

Like, not to put myself on a pedestal or anything, but I think I would do what Homura did re: time looping if the 'Madoka' in the scenario was, say, my brother, or my best friend(s), or even just someone I knew by name that I insist does not deserve to die.

That people can only feel that romantic attraction can compel people to such selfless devotion to other human beings is incredibly disrespectful and disservicing to the characters and the human race in general, and ontop of that the main reason everyone clings to the lesbian interpretations is that they fetish it.

Don't even deny it, either. Pretty much the vast majority of everyone who claims that HomuMado and KyoSaya is OBVIOUS claims such because they WANT it, and it appeals to them, and it's a shining spark of something sweet and good and comforting in a sea of cynical, real darkness that is the franchise.

And it sells, and that's why the IP owners will create official artwork, games, merchandise, and even a sequel that will pander to this part of the fanbase, because it can be harmlessly included after the fact without contradicting anything explicitly and it satisfies romantic-fetishists.

And they'd of done this regardless of the original authorial intent, because that's how intellectual properties work. The portrayal of official or canon lesbian material does not indicate that this is how the characters were WRITTEN at the time of their original publishing.

Well, Homura was, but you know, whatever.

[TheSix]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The [anything] has non-romantic interpretations too, just sayin'.

It's not new to Puella Magi or even anime or even fiction, but I find it pretty gross that everyone has to force every strong emotional dependency or connection in fiction as being completely and totally romantic.

Like, not to put myself on a pedestal or anything, but I think I would do what Homura did re: time looping if the 'Madoka' in the scenario was, say, my brother, or my best friend(s), or even just someone I knew by name that I insist does not deserve to die. That people can only feel that romantic attraction can compel people to such selfless devotion to other human beings is incredibly disrespectful and disservicing to the characters and the human race in general.

Pretty much.

I'm not "devoted to the idea that they aren't lesbians" (and I'd have had the same interpretation of the Madoka-Homura relationship if either one were male): I have nothing against yuri shipping, shipping in general or homosexuality, but there is no canon indication that the two are romantically interested in each other, and the insistence that to behave as they did there would have to be does in fact disservice anybody who has cared to a large extent for another human being outside of a romantic relationship, and an insistence that arguably undermines the themes of the series itself. You can interpret it as romantic if you want, but insisting it's actual fact isn't backed up by the source.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Don't even deny it, either. Pretty much the vast majority of everyone who claims that HomuMado and KyoSaya is OBVIOUS claims such because they WANT it, and it appeals to them, and it's a shining spark of something sweet and good and comforting in a sea of cynical, real darkness that is the franchise.

It's probably not a case of searching for some optimism in there: I consider Madoka an ultimately pretty optimistic series, with the overall statement on human nature that I got from it being that most people don't really care about/are too short-sighted to see what's best in the long run, but do care about people close to them: You don't need to find optimism in shipping when there's already optimism in empathy, and as referred to before it's arguably a /less/ optimistic take that this empathy is in fact romantic attraction. It's just shippers gotta ship, I guess.

[Tyabann]

I think it's worth noting that Urobuchi was not the only creative mind behind Madoka... Magica Quartet as a whole was.
That's Iwakami (the producer, representing Aniplex/Shaft), Shinbo (director), Urobuchi (scriptwriter), and Ume (character designer). Hell, given the impact their ideas had, especially on Rebellion, you can probably throw in Inucurry (witch animation) as well.
When you talk about "authorial intent", you can't only consider what Urobuchi would have wanted (although I am, as stated, very suspicious of the idea that he was trying to "pander ironically" when he's the guy who wrote an F/SN fanfic) you also need to consider the intent of the other creatives as well.
Ume made this, for what it's worth.

[TheSix]

I won't speak for Aura, but I'm not talking about authorial intent myself: I'm of the conviction that when you send art to the public, you're communicating a message, and this message can be interpreted like any other: If you're message is interpreted in ways it wasn't intended to be but is still supported by the text, then that interpretation is still valid. What I am saying, however, is that the interpretation of these character's relationships as romantic is something I /don't/ feel is supported by the text over it being non-romantic. If the portrayal was meant to be a romantic one, then that aspect of it definitely didn't appear to me, and I don't see any evidence as to how it's supported over an unromantic friendship.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

This is actually in the show and as a result you really shouldn't try to argue that the pairing isn't supposed to be taken seriously.

This sort of thing is just more yuri teasing. It has no concrete bearing on the canon itself, so I don't know why you and ReinWeiss seem to think it does.

You know, speaking as a yuri fan myself, I really wish yuri fans wouldn't sort of settle for this teasing. If an anime show and its makers wants a yuri pairing to be taken as basically official then it should give a very good in-canon/in-story reason (or reasons) for it to be taken as such.

I don't have a problem with KyouSaya shippers. But I do have a problem with people arguing that it's "official", especially based on the TV series alone. An official pairing ought to be totally supportable by canon material alone (i.e. the actual story content). All this other stuff like character songs and artwork by the character designers can be a nice framing for this official pairing painting, but it shouldn't be the painting itself.

And I can easily imagine Gen getting a few laughs by poking fun at fans who treat something as official when it has no real in-canon basis.