[Manga] Naruto Chapter 592 Discussion

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

I really hate when a simple conversation turns into a wall of text and that's exactly what's happening here. You're diverging on numerous tangents and ignoring the point of my statement. I'm not even going address most of what you said because its irrelevant and I don't agree with it anyways. I would like to refrain from calling you biased Itachi fanboy but you're making it really hard with some of your statements. Itachi broke out of ET by LUCK, defeated Nagato with help, defeated Kabuto with help. None of it was easy or by skill alone.

i tried to avoid you making a silly comment like this by stating that this event has nothing to do with the conversation. itachi would be alive in the scenarios you are discussing so him being a dead ET zombie and breaking out has nothing to do with anything. i find it interesting how you jumped on this irrelevancy

As beastly as you think Itachi is, he couldn't stand toe to toe with the 1st Hokage as far as he's been hyped up to be.

no one but madara can

Orochimaru could have been far OR near. Kept his eyes closed... look in the other direction... whatever pleases you... and still have the 1st Hokage wipe the floor with Itachi. That's the point I was making.

and you are wrong. orochimaru's ET of the 1st was limited by orochimaru's knowledge and ability. his ET of hashirama was not even close to how powerful hashirama was when alive. itachi would have beat orochimaru using ET zombies of anybody including the 1st. also you simply dont know any of what you just said. you cant assume he could have been far away and not looking

On the other issue of Tsukuyomi, you proved my point for me, there has been no other Genjutsu based attack as powerful as it since Itachi's death.

because it was itachi's technique... not every MS power is the same among ninja.

The others you mention carry a high price and can never be used multiple times without an even higher sacrifices (killing numerous Uchihas and stealing their eyes). Tsukuyomi is an Genjutsu that hits instantly and give Itachi complete control over your perception of time and apparently only another Sharingan of sufficient power or Rinnegan user could stand up to it. Do you really think if this ability was passed onto Sasuke that anyone could been him with EMS spamming this over and over again? He'd look at the world and win...

itachi was invincible per zetsu's comment. you're talking about the elitest of ninja and then complaining that they are too powerful. of course their techniques are powerful, they are the elite... only a handful of other characters can even try to fight them. don't forget that kabuto invented a technique to make himself immune to genjutsu. then there is sasori and others as well who aren't susceptible or have defenses for genjutsu, but its like i said, you're not going to find many other ninja to stand up to itachi or sasuke with EMS tsukiomi (who doesn't exist) because they are near the pinnacle of god-like ninjas

[Shining Celebi]

When was it stated that Orochimaru couldn't use the full potential of his ET zombies? We also know that Orochimaru didn't have to have full control of his zombies, because he inserted the control tags after the summoning.

It doesn't make sense to me that a soul bound to a body and converted into the original body doesn't have have all of its abilities in life. I took Kabuto's statement to mean he could control more zombies than Orochimaru could and could use them in more versatile ways - like when he took over Muu.

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by Marsala

So why is Sasuke leaving the cave? Not only does he know that Orochimaru is still alive, he also knows that Orochimaru is currently someone who is not in the cave. We just have to figure out who and where that someone - who "knows everything" about the clan and village - is.

My first reaction was that "the one who knows everything" would be the original sage. But now that I think about it, the Sage wouldn't know anything about the village of Konoha, since it didn't exist when he was alive. My best guess would be Uchiha Madara. Obviously, he would know more about the Uchiha Clan than anyone, and he took part in the founding of the village. But why would Sasuke's remark about "the one who knows everything" come only after looking at the scroll?

But maybe I'm reading it wrong altogether, and they already told us that Orochimaru is the person that knows everything...

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

When was it stated that Orochimaru couldn't use the full potential of his ET zombies?

It was never stated, but one can make that simple observation based on how weak the 1st hokage was when Orochimaru summoned him as an Edo-Tensei. So we can say that either this was a very ugly case of power inflation (we could call this a plot hole) or that Orochi's version of Edo-Tensei was weak compared to Kabuto's. In general we can say that Edo Tensei is the most broken jutsu of this manga, the power of the summoned zombies is always changing according to the requirements of the plot. Having infinite chakra in itself breaks any logic that the author or any reader could come up reading the rest of the manga.

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

But maybe I'm reading it wrong altogether, and they already told us that Orochimaru is the person that knows everything...

Kabuto made that obvious already. Orochi was involved in most of the things that happened in the manga, directly or indirectly. He created Yamato, he made Danzou's body, he made most of what Kabuto was using, he was around Konoha when most of the big events happened. He had accesss to Konoha's secret jutsu like Edo-Tensei, maybe he was even there to see Nagato's rinnegan rampage against Danzou and Hanzou. Kabuto stated that they knew about the sharingan's progression into rinnegan, and knowing Orochimaru we can assume he was after more than just the sharingan, he most likely wanted to evolve it into the rinnegan, so Orochimaru most likely expected that he can awaken the rinnegan once he is in Sasuke's body.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

When was it stated that Orochimaru couldn't use the full potential of his ET zombies? We also know that Orochimaru didn't have to have full control of his zombies, because he inserted the control tags after the summoning.

It was never stated that Orochimaru's couldn't use the Edo tensei at its full power. Rather it is a simple observation that Hashirama does not live up to the reputation Kishimoto is now giving him. So, many fans have assumed that Orochimaru could not use Edo Tensei properly.

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

It doesn't make sense to me that a soul bound to a body and converted into the original body doesn't have have all of its abilities in life. I took Kabuto's statement to mean he could control more zombies than Orochimaru could and could use them in more versatile ways - like when he took over Muu.

One possible suggestion is that Orochimaru's control of the dead wasn't as strong, so the summoned souls could slightly disobey his orders (I.e. they would fight, but not at full power).

The most likely speculation, though, is that Orochimaru simply ordered the zombies to play around with Sarutobi.

[Shining Celebi]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

It was never stated, but one can make that simple observation based on how weak the 1st hokage was when Orochimaru summoned him as an Edo-Tensei. So we can say that either this was a very ugly case of power inflation (we could call this a plot hole) or that Orochi's version of Edo-Tensei was weak compared to Kabuto's.

Well, I think we all know which of these is true.

The latter explanation is just a fan-interpretation since these two things are logically irreconcilable. There are other interpretations, some more valid, some less valid - for example, james has a great interpretation above. But to state as an unequivocal fact that Orochimaru's Edo Tensei zombies couldn't use their full powers is wrong. These are all nothing more than our attempts to paper over a gaping plot hole in the story. My personal preference is just to ignore the logical inconsistency and accept both things - there is no reason a story has to be consistent except that we usually prefer them that way. In other words, for me no explanation is required: Orochimaru's Edo Tensei zombies are normal, Hashirama used all the power he had that was required to kill Hiruzen in that fight, and Hashirama is also ungodly strong in contradiction to what we saw there.

In general we can say that Edo Tensei is the most broken jutsu of this manga, the power of the summoned zombies is always changing according to the requirements of the plot. Having infinite chakra in itself breaks any logic that the author or any reader could come up reading the rest of the manga.

I agree. It would be weird to have resurrected immortals who run out of chakra, but it is broken and crazy that they have infinite chakra, apparently limited only in how much they can use in an instant as dictated by whatever their previous mortal limitations were. Chakra is supposed to come from physical energy and spiritual energy, if souls have infinite spiritual energy, why doesn't everyone? Actually, we just need a huge explanation from Kishimoto on how souls/minds/chakra works in Naruto...especially given events like Minato and Kushina's chakra lingering around, Orochimaru getting his arms back, etc.

But like Hashirama, I am accept it without deeper thought, mostly because it's cool. Although even the Rule of Cool is being stretched a little bit for me when any Uchiha apparently can pull a magic Get-Out-Of-Edo-Tensei-Free card out of the deck.

[Mateus]

Spoiler for Madara outcome:

(Posted in the Tobi thread also but still relevant)I think Madara can (and will) try to attack Tobi as much as possible but it will be fruitless given Tobi's time-space/phasing technique, in fact as of now Tobi is the only ninja shown with the ability to make people and things pass right through him, something even the mighty Madara Uchiha cannot do (he's shown us most of his arsenal and if phasing was in it he would have done it).

As for outcome I think one of three possible scenarios can occur that will end Madara's time on the current battlefield. A) Tsunade using the reaper death seal (assuming she knows it). B) Sasuke sealing away Madara within the Totsuka sword via Susanoo (assuming Itachi did indeed pass it onto him). Or C) Feeling threatened by Madara's arrival, Tobi could seal Madara into the Demon-sealing statue in order to power up the Juubi.

[a3jay14]

I think Orochimaru is still around because there are still people with curse mark.


Sasuke is finally asking madara about their cursed clan and the village.

[Lendial]

The one who knows everything, as in the sage? this chapter was such a tease.

[Vindi89]

Fine... I'll put some effort in just this once...

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i tried to avoid you making a silly comment like this by stating that this event has nothing to do with the conversation. itachi would be alive in the scenarios you are discussing so him being a dead ET zombie and breaking out has nothing to do with anything. i find it interesting how you jumped on this irrelevancy

Lol... you felt the need to bring it up first with laughable statements like:

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

because as we recently saw, even ET doesn't cause fear in itachi. he broke free from ET, defeated ET nagato, then beat the user of the technique with little trouble.

And you say I'm making silly comments? The relevancy is that it shows your biased perception of events.

and you are wrong. orochimaru's ET of the 1st was limited by orochimaru's knowledge and ability. his ET of hashirama was not even close to how powerful hashirama was when alive. itachi would have beat orochimaru using ET zombies of anybody including the 1st. also you simply dont know any of what you just said. you cant assume he could have been far away and not looking

If anyone is making assumptions here its you. You're assuming that Orochimaru can't use his Edo Technique at a distance when we've never seen anything that states otherwise, or even a reasonable explaination as to what would limit them to the user's vicinity. Even if he's close by, you're assuming Orochimaru would automatically get caught in a Genjutsu. You're assuming that Itachi can defeat 3+ Edo Zombies who are for all purposes immortal and exist beyond the Jutsu caster's death unless the Jutsu is undone. You're also assuming that Orochimaru's Edo Zombies are weaker than Kabuto's, which isn't the case when you take into account my next paragraph.

Looking at it another way, the 3rd Hokage was said to be the "God of Shinobi" knew every Jutsu in Konoha, yet the scale of his battle with Orochimaru was nothing compared to what we've seen after. All the Kages since (from different villages included) have shown tremendous ability beyond what the 3rd showed during his battle. Does this mean he's weaker? No, its simply inflation of powers as the manga goes on.

Now if you were really following my point from the beginning instead of being a biased Itachi fanboy, you'd see where I was going when I said Kish never meant for Harashima to be the powerhouse he is now. It simply makes no sense when you realize that Orochimaru could have used him to beat Itachi.

because it was itachi's technique... not every MS power is the same among ninja.

Amaterasu was his technique as well. Ask yourself why Sasuke was given Amaterasu and not Tsukuyomi? Ask youself why the Author felt the need to stop the technique with Itachi. Its pretty clear.

itachi was invincible per zetsu's comment. you're talking about the elitest of ninja and then complaining that they are too powerful. of course their techniques are powerful, they are the elite... only a handful of other characters can even try to fight them. don't forget that kabuto invented a technique to make himself immune to genjutsu. then there is sasori and others as well who aren't susceptible or have defenses for genjutsu, but its like i said, you're not going to find many other ninja to stand up to itachi or sasuke with EMS tsukiomi (who doesn't exist) because they are near the pinnacle of god-like ninjas

I never once complained about Itachi being too powerful. I said he was given a powerful ability that ended with him for a very good reason. Its boring to the readers to have the bad guy stare at and opponent and beat them. I don't see why you feel the need to defend that. Ask yourself why Sasuke was given Amaterasu and not Tsukuyomi? Its pretty clear.

It goes beyond being a god-like ninja. Naruto is pretty up there in terms of power now and yet he would fall to a single Tsukuyomi. The problem is that the requirements for defeating that Jutsu are so steep. You need to be an Uchiha (pretty much extinct), a Rinnegan user (pretty much 1 person in the world) or your maniac ninja turned puppet who doesn't have a chakra circulation to manipulate.

Also Kabuto wasn't immune to Genjutsu.. he blocked out his vision. Something you apparently don't think Orochimaru could have done (close his eyes!) after summoning Edo Zombies and letting them do the dirty work.

There... you made me write a wall of text all because you can't accept 1 single point. Harashima was never suppose to be this powerful in the beginning as Orochimaru would have used him to beat Itachi! All of your assumptions are merely you trying to explain away a giant plot hole. Even after I said in my initial post that I'm sure the author intended Itachi>Orochimaru.. that still didn't satisfy your Itachi Fanboyism I guess. Anways I'm done with this conversation, take away from it what you will.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

One possible suggestion is that Orochimaru's control of the dead wasn't as strong, so the summoned souls could slightly disobey his orders (I.e. they would fight, but not at full power).

The most likely speculation, though, is that Orochimaru simply ordered the zombies to play around with Sarutobi.

The latter isn't even speculation, it's a fact apparent from when Orochimaru explained he was doing it to torture Sarutobi emotionally and was then confirmed in the Data book.
You can rationalize their strength (or lack there of) with two other things I think :
First the strongest state of Edo Tensei is when the deads are aware, in control of their actions and willing to fight. Oro (who might have been aware of the jutsu weakness) completely controled their bodies and erased their personality so that they couldn't possibly release themselves but in doing so made them little more than puppets. It wasn't Hashirama and his brother fighting, it was Orochimaru manipulating powerfull tools.
Secondly many forgot that the battlefield was severely limited to a single rooftop where they couldn't use over the scale (litteraly) jutsu. Take what Edo-Madara has done until now and remove all jutsu that can't fit within the barrier which confined them and suddenly you have no perfect Susanoo, no meteor, no deadly forest nor two dozens of Susanoo, etc.

Now of course the real answer is the fact that powerscaling has dramatically increased in the last ~450 chapters but taking into account the facts that the Senju brothers weren't meant to kill Sarutobi quickly, were only mindless machines and could only use close range ninjutsu make things a little less hard to swallow.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

These are all nothing more than our attempts to paper over a gaping plot hole in the story.

I must admit to often trying to plug the holes That's what a fan of the manga has to do on the forums

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

My personal preference is just to ignore the logical inconsistency and accept both things - there is no reason a story has to be consistent except that we usually prefer them that way.

We wouldn't care that much if the story progressed with a faster pace, it's been 12 years from the beginning, we had plenty of time for nitpicking But that's just a sign that we care about the manga so much that we are killing time between 2 chapters with some fun debates about meaningless things

My only real annoyance with Naruto is about the anime, not the manga: it just doesn't live up to the quality of the manga. The producers of the anime should be like this producer, and then everything about Naruto would be perfect.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

The latter isn't even speculation, it's a fact apparent from when Orochimaru explained he was doing it to torture Sarutobi emotionally and was then confirmed in the Data book.
You can rationalize their strength (or lack there of) with two other things I think :
First the strongest state of Edo Tensei is when the deads are aware, in control of their actions and willing to fight. Oro (who might have been aware of the jutsu weakness) completely controled their bodies and erased their personality so that they couldn't possibly release themselves but in doing so made them little more than puppets. It wasn't Hashirama and his brother fighting, it was Orochimaru manipulating powerfull tools.
Secondly many forgot that the battlefield was severely limited to a single rooftop where they couldn't use over the scale (litteraly) jutsu. Take what Edo-Madara has done until now and remove all jutsu that can't fit within the barrier which confined them and suddenly you have no perfect Susanoo, no meteor, no deadly forest nor two dozens of Susanoo, etc.

Now of course the real answer is the fact that powerscaling has dramatically increased in the last ~450 chapters but taking into account the facts that the Senju brothers weren't meant to kill Sarutobi quickly, were only mindless machines and could only use close range ninjutsu make things a little less hard to swallow.

this is a great wording of exactly what happened with Edo Tensei in naruto. it is a broken jutsu and i wish kabuto didn't bring it back, but since he did, i agree with Ero-Senn1n that we as fans of the series can work out the retcon to make sense for the lack of power that hashirama displayed against sarutobi

@vindi89. no offense, but you're just all over the place and the assumptions you are making are too wild to keep me interested in debating. just because a technique ends with someone's death doesn't mean that the author didn't like it anymore. it means that it was unique to that individual. it wouldn't be as interesting if sasuke was a carbon copy of itachi in techniques. he is already too close as it is imho. but the key difference is that itachi is more of a cerebral fighter (for which tsukiomi is perfect) and sasuke is more of a physical fighter (for which manipulation of amaterasu is perfect). madara is of course the most brutal fighter and sasuke fits somewhere in between the two

also, you insist that its boring to readers to have sharingan staredowns, but you mean to say that you find them boring. i do not. its silly and delusional to think of your own preferences as being that of all readers.

edit: just to add about the 1st and 2nd ET zombies. i dont think they would have attacked sarutobi until orochimaru put the control talismens in their heads. the 3 were just talking. so i still argue that orochimaru's technique was inferior to kabuto's since kabuto's talismen allowed for his direction while still allowing the zombies to use all their secret techniques at their own will. perhaps orochimaru could have done the same, we dont know, but we cant just assume that he did. its as hunter said, that orochimaru wanted them as puppets to torture sarutobi, but that doesnt equate to him knowing of and being able to use kabuto's style of talismens if he wanted. a lot of time passed since the first ET and kabuto was clearly working on improving the technique. he never mentioned that his talismens were ones orochimaru invented and just never used. he said they were his own

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

@vindi89. no offense, but you're just all over the place and the assumptions you are making are too wild to keep me interested in debating.

Oh noes, Orochimaru can't avoid being mind rape instantly by not looking at Itachi or keeping his eyes covered. Stand back folks, what wild and crazy assumptions am I gonna come up with next!

I really do applaud you for trying to find an answer to these issues within the context of the manga, but you're really only addressing the problem at the surface rather than looking at the root. That's why we won't agree. Try to open your mind and perspective a bit.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

Oh noes, Orochimaru can't avoid being mind rape instantly by not looking at Itachi or keeping his eyes covered. Stand back folks, what wild and crazy assumptions am I gonna come up with next!

I really do applaud you for trying to find an answer to these issues within the context of the manga, but you're really only addressing the problem at the surface rather than looking at the root. That's why we won't agree. Try to open your mind and perspective a bit.

try to base your conclusions off what has actually happened in the manga. remember when team 7 + chiyo tried what you are saying and didn't look into itachi's eyes? naruto got put under a genjutsu anyway because itachi doesn't need direct eye contact to do it...

[thewupk]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

edit: just to add about the 1st and 2nd ET zombies. i dont think they would have attacked sarutobi until orochimaru put the control talismens in their heads. the 3 were just talking.

Not sure if this was in the anime only but once they realized they were zombies one of the brothers mentioned that they would now have to fight Sarutobi. So I think they would of ended up fighting him anyways much like the others we've recently seen. They likely would have told Sarutobi what they were going to be doing unless Oro put those talismens in them.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

try to base your conclusions off what has actually happened in the manga. remember when team 7 + chiyo tried what you are saying and didn't look into itachi's eyes? naruto got put under a genjutsu anyway because itachi doesn't need direct eye contact to do it...

You have no idea how ironic that statement is coming from you, but I'm not going to get into that again.

So whatever happens to Naruto happens to everyone else right? Oh how about that time when Kakashi told Gai and the other Jounins not to look into Itachi's eyes. What about when Gai attacked Itachi without looking at his eyes? Or wait what about the time that Orochi wannabe (Kabuto) blocked out his eyes. Were they put into a Genjutsu too?

I'm sorry but you're just being petty now, the fact that I need to debate with you on whether a sight based Genjutsu can be avoided by closing one's eyes speaks volumes. Especially since we've had a similar senario already happen in the manga. Kakashi took Itachi's attention and 3 Jounins behind him had their eyes closed. If one of the characters being spoken about here wasn't named Itachi, I have a feeling you wouldn't be debating (and failing) so hard here.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

So whatever happens to Naruto happens to everyone else right?

nope. that's silly

Oh how about that time when Kakashi told Gai and the other Jounins not to look into Itachi's eyes. What about when Gai attacked Itachi without looking at his eyes?

it's one precaution to take against itachi sure, but it certainly doesn't result in anyone ever coming close to beating him that way.. orochimaru would have known that and you should too quite frankly...

Or wait what about the time that Orochi wannabe (Kabuto) blocked out his eyes. Were they put into a Genjutsu too?

yes. if izanami is qualified as a genjutsu. even if it's not, it's essentially the exact same thing as tsukiomi just with a heavier cost. if the choice was letting orochimaru take his body or lose an eye, the only option is the latter. but that's only if orochimaru was capable of pushing itachi to that extent, which he wasn't or he would have done it

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

nope. that's silly

You brought up Naruto's (who didn't even shield his vision) incompetency at dealing with a finger Genjutsu, to compare to Orochimaru who was vastly superior to Naruto at that point.

it's one precaution to take against itachi sure, but it certainly doesn't result in anyone ever coming close to beating him that way.. orochimaru would have known that and you should too quite frankly...

I'm not sure if you're purposely being dense or you just aren't even following along. Let me recap for you.

Me: Orochimaru should have used Edo 1st Hokage to beat Itachi. It makes no sense though since the author intended Itachi>Orochimaru. (This is a plot hole)

You: (trying to explain the plot hole away) Itachi puts anyone who tries to attack him into an instant mind rape. Then end.

Me: Orochimaru doesn't even need to look at Itachi to fight him. Just have Edo 1st Hokage deal with him.

At this point you initiated random petty arguments and work arounds instead of addressing that issue.

So getting back to your paragraph no Orochimaru wouldn't be fighting him with his eyes closed. The Edo Zombie would. Are you following along now? Now that you FINALLY agree that not looking at Itachi in some way or form is a "precaution to take against itachi for sure".

yes. if izanami is qualified as a genjutsu. even if it's not, it's essentially the exact same thing as tsukiomi just with a heavier cost. if the choice was letting orochimaru take his body or lose an eye, the only option is the latter. but that's only if orochimaru was capable of pushing itachi to that extent, which he wasn't or he would have done it

You lose on argument and jumped to another. I'm not going to get into the play by play of a fight between Orcho and his Edo Zombies vs Itachi. Just remember as character you named yourself after said himself "Each Jutsu has a weakness". Interestingly enough, if Orochimaru did use Edo Zombies to attack Itachi, they would have shared no physical connection what so ever (the requirement for setting up Izanami).

As far as I'm concerned I made my point. Which I will repeat for you again since apparently you have a hard time following along:

The 1st Hokage was never meant to be this strong, it makes no sense that Orochimaru didn't use him to defeat Itachi at anypoint after acquiring that ability.

[haegar]

593 is out.

quite interesting but feels kinda short.

Spoiler for 593 !!:

shame Kishi didn't let more happen in this chapter, granted, Oro returning is a lot, and so is the whole Sennin chakra stuff, somebody needs to explain that to me, did I get that right that Kabuto only attained sagehood due to Oro's chakra? So basically Oro was well on the way to sagehood himself thanks to his experiments with Jugo's DNA? I wish we would have been told where they are headed now, that Uchiha tablet thing maybe you need all the different eyes to read? or to Konoha? all in all nice chapter but some more answers this week would have been appreciated ...

anyways, I'm kinda glad the whole Kabuto angle ends up serving a bigger purpose...things are taking a turn for the better with Oro's return I daresay, it totally changes the power balance currently going on with the hax guys involved in the war ... I am very curious to find out just how much of Madara's plans Oro anticipated and what he knows of Tobi ...