2008-01-17, 15:52 | Link #481 |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Except if its Naruto fanfiction, then logic is usually thrown further out the window then in the series itself.
Though I think the real problem is that Nanoha makes an effort to try and make things apear scientifically instead of going 'lol magic!' That tends to set a spark, especially when they only do so sporadically. Most of the people will have the info fly way over their heads, and shrug, assuming it to be right. Those who don't try to make sense of it, and end up here. |
2008-01-17, 15:59 | Link #482 |
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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That sounds right. Since Nanoha makes the distinction that "This isn't magic-magic... We use technology to use our magic!" it, I guess, makes people want to view it with our human logic.
Naruto never had logic in fanfiction. I bet you all those 100,000s of fics are 99.99% crummy yaoi slash fics.
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2008-01-17, 16:14 | Link #483 |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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The problem is that people here tend to view things from a purely scientific point of view, forgetting that this show is a magic show first and foremost. Certain things can and will happen that cannot be explained with normal science.
As for Naruto... its lots of yaoi, lots of straight, but almost always beyond any scope of reason. "Oh hey, I'm Kyuubi, but I'm actually good. Orochimaru put a genjutsu on me, which made me go berserk but I'm okay now so I'll help you train and use my chakra even though its supposed to be lethal. I'll let you sign the fox contract too, even though no-one has ever heard of it. Oh, and I'm a girl too, despite everything in the series pointing towards the fact that I'm a guy." Same riddle is used for Itachi often too "Orochimaru did it" seems to be a favourite theme. Makes me glad things here are somewhat more... sane. |
2008-01-17, 16:19 | Link #484 |
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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The Nanoha section is totally sane. Just the OC section and here are probably a bit insane. A bit.
But I suppose that makes sense... Then I guess we just have people who like to try and make everything sound logical (I'm not one of them. Most of your stuff makes no sense to me at all XD)
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2008-01-17, 16:41 | Link #485 | |
Loveable Jerk
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Science exists to explain things we see if we see something new we don’t just hurl out everything and declare science as useless. We study the phenomenon and formulate new theories to explain it, its limits, and it’s effect. Science isn’t a monolithic “thing“ it’s a thought process, a WAY of thinking about the world around us in a logical and productive manner. This is a fact all too few people seem to grasp nowadays instead looking at things subjectively and “feeling” them or just accepting they’ll never understand something instead of striving to do so. Magic dosen't somehow elminate science it merely demands adaptation and new theories as magic clearly has rules and limits. People that dismiss it or say it can't be used to explain something are really saying "I don't want to try and explain this as I like being able to think whatever I want with no backing whatsoever since Jesus loves me, the world is flat, and it was made in seven days!" Last edited by Tk3997; 2008-01-17 at 16:52. |
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2008-01-17, 17:51 | Link #487 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Except that in the case of Nanoha, we have NFI what those rules and limits -are-. The show does not elucidate a grand unified theory of magic. We do not know how magic interfaces with conventional laws of physics. Certain things work and are ascribed to magic. Certain things work -which are not supposed to work-, even in the context of the show. Nanoha was able to boot Raising Heart without the proper boot-up sequence - that's not supposed to happen! There are additional types of magic which the characters in the show do not themselves understand (Lost Logia, "ancient magic", yadda yadda) but which work anyway.
In that context, it's foolish to think that the show describes in detail every conventional use of magic or every possible use of magic. Trying to pretend to use scientific analysis on a show like this is both pretentious and futile. You can't actually examine anything but the footage and the dialogue. That which is within one or the other of those must be accounted for, even if it doesn't make rational sense. But that doesn't mean that the world is 100% normal outside of that footage and dialogue, that everything not explicitly detailed is purely mundane. There's plenty that happens within the show that can't be explained conventionally. Some of it's explicitly magic (alla spells and stuff.) Some of it's implicitly magic (nobody misses even though ergonomics of a magic staff make for a lousy gun.) Some of it's probably not magic but defies other explanations (why are the cakes at Midoriya so damn tasty?) |
2008-01-17, 17:52 | Link #488 |
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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Keroko is correct. It is me who decides to just "say it is magic" because, honestly, most of us aren't going to want to bother to apply real life logic or any sort of science to things. It must makes life easier.
For me anyway. All this talk makes my head hurt.
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2008-01-17, 20:21 | Link #489 | ||||
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2008-01-17, 21:02 | Link #490 | |||||||||
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(OF course, the real issue is because they suddenly altered the show's course around Ep6/7ish, but SoD, SoD, SoD!) Quote:
The best a device can do is to be well suited to its TTR. Quote:
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By the way, Mach Caliber at least had a spell recorded that can be used to actually move (really it is a jerk) itself (and coincidentally its Master). What does RH use. Frankly, I must say that I don't understand your love for mechanical stabilization over electronic. At least the latter is only unproven. Quote:
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UPDATE: Oh yeah, and said elite managed to blow 8% of her magic power in the fight. Team A got away scot-free. Hmm... Quote:
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Come to think of it, even if I accept that Fate's magical power was somehow boosted, what does this have to do with her intelligence. Neither Vivio or Erio looked real bright. Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-01-17 at 22:59. |
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2008-01-17, 21:12 | Link #491 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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There isn't a non-magical Earth in Nanoha, though. Magic works there, right? We know for a fact that Nanoha is not the only mage from Earth (and, for that matter, that they're unusual but not unknown - Gil knows of enough other cases to be able to generalize about it. So while we can make certain assumptions about physical constants being constant and the like, anthropic-principle style, we can't assume outright that it's a totally-historical Earth either, just that it is so far. Viewing an Earth in the 18th century would not give you much information about whether nuclear power was possible; viewing Nanoha's Earth doesn't tell you that magical effects are possible (unless, heh, you wander near Uminari...)
Your comment about Yuuno is, I think, the key difference between how we're viewing the show. Yuuno is -not- confused. He's pretty intelligent (for a ferret, heh) and obviously well-versed in magic, or he couldn't do the things that we see him do. Fact is, RH does something for Nanoha that Yuuno could not have gotten it to do - or at least that he didn't believe he could have gotten it to do, and he's neither an idiot nor an uninformed party. It's completely reasonable to assume that if Yuuno is surprised by Nanoha's abilities, that is because they are, in context, surprising! |
2008-01-17, 22:07 | Link #492 | ||||||
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2008-01-17, 22:33 | Link #493 | ||
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In SoD, what happened is very simple. Yunno just doesn't know RH very well. We now know that ID as a class do not require complex incanatations to activate. Any such requirement is thus specific to RH, which apparently can waive it. If you ask me, I think the spell is a backup forced activation method. Yunno is not good enough for RH, being a ferret. And he thinks Nanoha isn't good enough either. However, by mumbling that mumbo-jumbo, RH will be forced to start no matter what. But Nanoha is good enough for RH. |
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2008-01-17, 22:57 | Link #494 | ||||
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2008-01-18, 00:07 | Link #495 | |||
***y translator
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Anyway, I don't think anyone has said that Nanoha's design is the optimum design for her weapon. What people have been saying is that physical sights and/or a stock for stablization is not necessary for optimum performance of the weapon. Maybe some people just prefer the things, like how some people like to drive automatic cars, while some like manuals. Do both get the job done? Sure. Does one or the other have advantages in certain situations? Yeah. Can you say conclusively that one or the other is better? I doubt it. And what's to say that usage is the only viable explanation and reasoning for weapon design? I gave a number of possible social reasons for the (in your opinion) sub-par weapon designs. Conjecture, but is that very different from the scientific conjecture many are making at this point? Quote:
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2008-01-18, 00:36 | Link #496 | |||
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2008-01-18, 01:14 | Link #497 | ||
***y translator
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2008-01-18, 01:15 | Link #498 |
"Begin, the operation!"
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...I just had a thought.
What kind of energy do Devices run off of? Going with the discussion at hand, it's obvious that to do any kind of stuff that the Devices are doing in the series to support not only their users but themselves in a sense (inlcluding but not limited to things like Zamber Form, Strada's rocket boosters, and so forth). These obviously have to run off of something or other. Is it mentioned in the NanohaWiki anywhere? Or does 7arcs just copout and go "oh by the way they run off of a mage's Linker Core" which is contrived and ridiculous because there's evidence that Devices can run under their own power, even if its limited (for example, requesting the Cartridge System). Furthermore, instead of suggesting a subspace "bag" like TK mentioned, why not just assume the matter comes from another dimension? There's obviously more than the one most of the action takes place in. From what I recall, the Garden was in a dimension all its own; apparently Al-Hazard in displaced in one by itself; TSAB ships travel through Dimensional Space, which appears to be their version of FTL (though it's not really FTL); the TSAB HQ also seems to be in one of its own. Could it be easy to assume, then, that there's another dimension that Devices are tuned to, and pull matter out of it? EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong, but when mages cast the Barrier spell that surrounds an area, doesn't that displace things half a dimension over?
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2008-01-18, 02:18 | Link #499 | |||
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Kagerou's first...
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Somehow, only non-mage humans and maybe animals are brought "out of line" with the dimension. Plants and buildings all remain. The best I can think of out of a particularly horrible (even among anime kekkai) situation is that the barrier actually pushes on wills and souls. Things without wills (like buildings or trees) are not affected (no interaction), but weak wills (insignificant magic power) are shoved out of the timeline and the "attached" body goes along with them. Fortunately, they don't die because they are pushed out of the timeline and without time passing they aren't affected. The strong resist the pressure and can stay in the timeline. This might provide an explanation for why kekkai are not used on Midchildra. While weak, many if not most Midchildrans got some magic power and will stay in the timeline. The barrier will only make sure they cannot escape. Thus it became doctrine in the TSAB not to use barriers even when they are great help in arresting criminals. The whole "push on will" stuff would also explain how Vita seemed to use the spell as a detector. Nanoha was a stubborn spot that won't go down! Yeah, pretty crappy. I know. Let's see yours then. At least kekkai in other places have the good grace of leaving the innocents there but frozen (say Shakugan no Shana) so we can pretend they just did something with time... |
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2008-01-18, 02:46 | Link #500 | ||||
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