Magic and Technology of MGLN

[MeisterBabylon]

I always assumed it was converted to mana then stored. In that form it has no mass. So no, no change in weight. If it were valid, Teana's hand in the StrikerS train job did not have a "compensatory sag" when she called off XM's other half, so while the lack of canon detail is appalling, I think this is a reasonable assumption.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Nya~n

Not going to bother digging through the 121 pages here because we all know how much DRAMA took place in the past, so i might as well ask straight out anyway.

question is on devices. their weight, to be precise. for example, Cross Mirage has a Two-Hand mode, but when the second one is not in use, is its weight added to the original body, making it twice the weight of one gun, or is it stored in a pseudohammerspace(or whatever the equivalent is in nanoverse. that'll be another story, though i remember it being discussed here once) and thus the weight is negligible?

If you think the weight is still there, when do you stop?

Does vita always carry around her enormous Hammer (and why does she change if it has the same weight?), does Nanoha have the equivalent weight of her blaster bits even in normal mode?

And what about sealed mode?

Myself, i just think about either hammer-space (), or else even that it creates everything on the spot (but the crystals).

[Kikaifan]

Plus we already know they can create apparently solid objects - Vita and Rein's ball/dagger projectiles.

[al103]

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

Plus we already know they can create apparently solid objects - Vita and Rein's ball/dagger projectiles.

You forgot about subspace pockets each device have. At least Vita balls and Signums Laevantin components for whip-sword are in they devices subspace storage. Same with device in inactive form. And Rein definitely DO have her own device even if she can't make subspace pocket on her own... as Acous clearly could with his cake, and she most likely can do it on her own anyway.

Originally Posted by Nya~n

question is on devices. their weight, to be precise. for example, Cross Mirage has a Two-Hand mode, but when the second one is not in use, is its weight added to the original body, making it twice the weight of one gun, or is it stored in a pseudohammerspace(or whatever the equivalent is in nanoverse. that'll be another story, though i remember it being discussed here once) and thus the weight is negligible?

We have only one direct number IIRC and it's weight of Signum's device with all upgrades and parts - and it's more than half ton!!! Parts in subspace storage definitely don't weight anything, though it's not clear about active device weight like Signum's sword-whip which most likely most of that half ton weight. What is clear - there are definitely strength and durability enchantments on mages, so Nanoha could counter pressure of Vita's attack in first episode of Aces while concrete literally!!! crumbled under her from that same pressure - so using half ton sword-whip without anti-weight enhancements is not out realm of possibility, especially because weightless it would be mostly ineffective.

PS. It's funny - but after some thinking I must conclude that somewhat proficient nanohaverse mage can easily kill unprotected human just by punching him... Strength enchantments and all that...

[Kikaifan]

Whoa, where was there a direct quote for mass of a device? I've been wanting one forever.

[arkhangelsk]

There almost certainly isn't. The half-ton stuff, AFAIK, is from the fan fiction Academy Blues by Daishi Prime...

[al103]

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

Whoa, where was there a direct quote for mass of a device? I've been wanting one forever.

Don't remember, but it was most likely either booklet or sound stage.

[Keroko]

Last I checked, the whole 'parts are stored in subspace' was still an unconfirmed theory.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Last I checked, the whole 'parts are stored in subspace' was still an unconfirmed theory.

Well, there is a subspace storage (jewel seeds etc), though it might not be for parts.

However, if it's not for parts, there is designed parts on the device made to materialize pretty much everything in the device.

[Kaijo]

Well, it's either stored in subspace, or formed out of magic particles would the device goes active.

Or it's, you know, magic.

[al103]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Well, it's either stored in subspace, or formed out of magic particles would the device goes active.

Only subspace storage is much more plausible and energy efficient...

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Or it's, you know, magic.

Since when Nanohaverse worked on "it's magic!!!"? It's one of the things I like about it that while we don't given explanation of everything, we at least can be sure that there is in-universe explanation, even if characters don't know it and that rules of magic don't change seven times in week.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by al103

Only subspace storage is much more plausible and energy efficient...

I don't see how it's more plausible, no evidence exists to confirm either really and support goes both ways.

[al103]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I don't see how it's more plausible, no evidence exists to confirm either really and support goes both ways.

If Signum's device after all upgrades weight more than .5 ton then I think it's not ".5 to actually converted in mana to transform back if needed".

PS. Actually requesting parts and requiring replacement parts at all don't make sense if all of that is just materialized mana...

[Keroko]

Neither does 'imagining your device' if it's all build already. Like I said, there's credit to both theories, but no final proof.

[itanshi1]

Originally Posted by al103

If Signum's device after all upgrades weight more than .5 ton then I think it's not ".5 to actually converted in mana to transform back if needed".

PS. Actually requesting parts and requiring replacement parts at all don't make sense if all of that is just materialized mana...

Ah, well. Why draw stick figures when you can commission a pro artist?

[ZeroXSEED]

Originally Posted by itanshi1

Ah, well. Why draw stick figures when you can commission a pro artist?

And wasting military budget for mere Aesthetic version, but yes, you right, it's NOT for sole aesthetic reason, it's the PERFORMANCE.

As far as we know, there are 4 class of device (some are damn confusing)

- Storage Device

- Armed Device

- Intelligent Device

- Unison Device

As far as we know, Storage Devices are rather common (StikerS manga, there are Staffs for Mid-childan trainees and Spears for Belkan trainees). They're easier and simpler (in some kind of sense) than another three.
For example; Teana's Anchor Gun and Subaru's Rollerblades are hand-made.

These two looked crude and yes, kinda like Stick Figure, but they are useful.

Back to the topic;

Weight issues are confusing too, and yes, they NEED Parts, not simply talk about damn talented artist or something.

By the way, I heard Verossa Accous carried cakes on his sub-space, is that true???

[Nya~n]

go watch the episode where Hayate and Teana visit can't-remember-where in episode 14, where Rossa was chatting with Chrono.

You also forgot about Boost Devices.

[Arkeus]

Ok, two questions as i can't seem to remember:

1°) Do we know why Jail was looking for the Relics, and what he planned to do with them? beyond the one for Vivio, that is.

2°) Any theories on what would have happeend to Fate hadn't she be freed from the YnS and Arc-En-Ciel'd as standard procedure by TSAB?

Would she have become part of the Wolrenkitter, or died with it?

[itanshi1]

1) wow, thats a thought provoker. Well, alright, I'd say yes if only for the fact that letting her die is an obvious no. So, then, if we have her as a data being like the volkenwritter, then she wouldn't age. She'd be an eternal lightning loli under hayate's guidance.

Hmm, that would make the adoption process confusing. Ah well. maybe not.

2) Yes? They thoroughly destroyed that thing.

[DKN117]

...I just spent the last eight days reading this ENTIRE thread - all 122 pages of it. Hoo! Whatta task! My head kinda hurts... When I read, I imagine the words being spoken in my head, and after a while I started 'assigning' specific voices to frequent posters. My Keroko mind-voice eventually developed a slight British accent, while AdmiralTigerClaw got a gruff military-esque voice. And considering how pestering/annoying he turned out to be more often than not, Arkhangelsk got the voice of the Scout from Team Fortress 2. And I was indeed imagining some of his 'arguments' as "What, you gonna cry? You gonna cry? Come on - rage-quit, do us all a favor", etc.

I also had some perverse fun by imagining Precia Testarossa (shortly pre-S1) reading through the entire thing, sometimes face-palming at some of the conjectures made (and the arguments).

That aside, I came up with a theory for my fanfic verse on how the Arc-en-Ciel works (and descriptions on the three types of FTL travel, to provide background). How's this sound?

Spoiler for Arc-en-Ciel and FTL:

The 'Arc-en-Ciel' Slipspace Compression Cannon operates in a manner understood by very, very few amongst the TSAB, using a 'realm' that the Bureau does not otherwise interact with. A method of FTL travel used by some civilizations utilizes Slipstream Space, or Slipspace. As most people know, we exist in four dimensions of space: up-down, left-right, forward-backward, and time. Slipstream Space, however, is an 11-dimensional space-time. These higher realms of existence both are and aren't part of the "realspace" that we know of, in that they are, technically, higher planes of reality that make up part of existence/the universe, but unlike hyperspace or voidspace, objects in realspace have no gravitational presense in slipspace. Thus, a planet's gravitational field and presense affect hyperspace and voidspace travel, and a ship in those realms can, if not careful, 'smash into' the planet. A ship in Slipspace, however, will simply "pass through" the planet, with neither object interacting with the other. The only objects in realspace with a presence enough sufficient to disturb slipspace are black holes, as they are points whose event horizons are locations where all space-time is infinitely compressed, and all laws of reality break down. And even then, in slipspace they can be detected and have courses plotted around them.

In Dimension PFH-7 (novel Halo: First Strike), an ancient artifact (Lost Logia? Can something of non-magical nature be bestowed an LL?) created a "pocket dimension" in slipspace sustained by its presence, where ships could interact with (and shoot at) each other. The "bubble" collapsed when the ship bearing the artifact exited slipspace, whereupon slipspace rapidly returned to its normal state, utterly obliterating/atomizing the ships still in the bubble. On a significantly smaller scale, this is how the Arc-en-Ciel works.

When an 'Arc-en-Ciel' SCC is "fired", it uses a complex system of events, triggered by an artificially-produced copy of a 'Lost Logia' (possibly another of the aforementioned artifact) discovered by the weapon's developers, to force open a rift into Slipspace and create a "small" (maximum is about 16 kilometers across) slipspace bubble/field akin to the earlier-mentioned model, and force the target into slipspace and into this bubble. The sustaining field is then cut off, allowing the rift to close and slipspace to collapse back into its natural state, obliterating whatever was caught in the 'bubble' zone. When used on a planet, the combined force of space-time 'rebounding' as the slipspace rupture closes can cause tremendous atmospheric and seismic shockwaves, capable of wreaking massive devastation - especially if it goes off over water, creating tremendous destructive ocean waves. For reference, imagine the aftermath of Regret's assault carrier jumping into Slipspace over New Mombasa, and increase the destructic effects several-fold. THAT is why it's a BAD IDEA to enter slipspace while in-atmosphere... though, strangely, exiting slipspace into an atmosphere does not cause this effect. See: battlecruisers and an assault carrier showing up in H3: ODST.

I also came up, for my stories, with an 'explanation' for the phenomenon of magic, and its connection to the other two 'fundamental manipulatable forces':

Spoiler for Force, Magic, and Ki:

Originally, when the Universe was born, there was only one of these 'forces', surrounding and permeating all of existence. Though at first pure, the eventual rise of sapient life would lead to this force, now known only as "The Force", to split into the Light Side and the Dark Side. From then on, those who wielded the different aspects of The Force would quarrel forevermore. The most famous and long-running of such conflicts was in Galaxy SW-14, between the light-wielding Jedi and the dark-wielding Sith.

Nine billion years ago, however, something happened. A new force split off from The Force and rapidly developed independently. Unlike The Force, this new force is not split between pure and corruptive - light and dark do exist, but the darkness of this new force is not inherently evil, and in almost all cases does not have its Force counterpart's corruptive qualities either (a few do, though). It also developed radically different properties and forms of energy/element manipulation, but that's for another time. Eventually, this new force was dubbed the name it now holds: Magic. Like the Force, magic permeates all of existence, and all living sapient beings can access it to some degree or another (though, like The Force, many peopel have so weak a connection as to be, for all intents and purposes, nonexistent).

Like the Force, users of magic - Mages - channel the magical energy that is ambient in existence through their bodes and bend it to their will, casting various techniques - spells, charms, curses, waves of pink death, etc. - in various forms - "pure" magic, elemental, channeling through the body to enhance various physical attributes to peak-human or superhuman levels, etc. A spark of raw magic intricately bound to a person's soul, called a Linker Core by some, enables the mage to pull magic from the space-time around them and use it for various purposes (the entities called Midichlorians are essentially trillions of microscopic Force-oriented Linker Cores, contrary to a mage's single macroscopic Core). Like the Force, there are risks in overuse - using magic requires a portion of life-force, so using too much will lead to loss of consciousness until the body naturally 'restocks'. Beyond that is the phenomenon colloquially known as "burnout", where a mage channels too much mana through their body too quickly, whereupon it overloads them and "burns them out", resulting in death. (As seen in the New Order Jedi Dorsk-81 and the historic Protoss hero Adun, this can happen with the Force as well)

The third of the forces comes not from without, but from within. This energy, made by the fusion of "physical" and "spiritual" energy, is known as ki, chi, qi, chakra, and various others. Unlike the other two, ki usage comes from the person's own body. It is channeled through "chakra coils" placed throughout the body, interwoven with all the body's parts and systems. With training, it can be used for various magic-esque tasks, including water-walking, clinging to various surfaces, flight, element conversion/manipulation, enhancement of physical strength, speed, endurance, and such, and even being launches as bolts, blasts, beams, and waves of raw, destructive energy ("RASENGAN!") ("KA-ME-HA-ME-HA!") Some groups, such as the inhabitants of NTO-Earth, and the species known as Saiyans and Namekians, have easier times using large amounts of this energy, and more of their people can do so. As ki/chakra is, essentially, life energy from within the body, "burnout" is not an issue. However, using too much can lead to unconsciousness, a condition known as "chakra exhaustion". Using up ALL of your ki/chakra is fatal.

If the Force and ki/chakra are combined (an extremely difficult task), the result is called "senjutsu", giving a massive power boost, an aura that can be used as an offensive weapon, and various other special abilities. If magic and ki/chakra are combined (also an extremely difficult task), the result is called "Kankahou" or "Suntaxis Antikeimenoin" ("Union of the Opposing"), and grants a tremendous boost to strength, speed, endurance, fortitude, and the power of attacks used.

Third is my breakdown of different systems of magic:

Precursor → Forerunner → Al-Hazardian → Belkan and Midchildan
Al-Hazardian branches to Belkan system and Midchildan system
Forerunner system, besides leading to Al-Hazardian system, also eventually leads to Rowl-Ing system (Harry Potter)
Precursor system, besides leading to Forerunner system, also, after over 200 millennia, leads to Vetus system (Negima)

Lastly, to anyone who's read up on the Halo Expanded Universe (or just paid close attention to my above slipspace explanations), do you think that Slipspace travel - specifically, the opening of rifts into slipspace for craft to travel into and out of it - would register to the TSAB as "potentially-dangerous dimensional distortions" and lead to the TSAB trying to force the UNSC and Covenant to switch to a different method of FTL travel? Or would they leave it be?

And how about the SPARTAN programs? Considered highly unethical even amongst the few who know of it in the UNSC, and yet without the Spartans the UNSC humans would've lost the war and been driven to extinction. What viewpoint would the Bureau take considering all that? Also, considering how anti-mass-weapon the TSAB is, would they try to force the UNSC to stop using their projectiles, coilguns, and nukes even though they're in the middle of a desperate war for survival against the Covenant? (To tell how close said war was: in the end, after the war ended with a UNSC/Covenant-Separatist victory, roughly 92% of the human population had been killed in only 27 years of war)

For that matter, what would the TSAB do if they, not the UNSC, were encountered by the Covenant, who deemed the Bureau and its people as a profane race to be driven to extinction by order of the gods? How would the TSAB handle the massive, advanced military juggernaut of militant religious extremists that are the Covenant, who have hundreds of ships and billions of warriors, who kill every human they find and reduce worlds to burnt, molten husks? No chance of negotiations, no prisoners taken, no civilians, women, or children spared, a monstrously large, massively-advanced, millenia-old force determined to drive the humans of the TSAB to extinction.

Oh, and in my stories, Al-Hazred is/was a Forerunner colony housing a medical and an astronavigation facility - and, before that, a Precursor colony. It's in realspace, but a gravitational anomaly prevents hyperspace or voidspace travel to it - which means that voidspace-using Precia's plan was doomed from the start, as are the aspirations of voidspace-using TSAB archeologists. Al-Hazred is, while technically human-habitable, an ice world, kinda like Hoth but not as cold (equatorial temperatures regularly reach above freezing during the planet's closer-to-its-sun points of its orbit).

Other parts of the Hazred system are Ori-Hazred, Al's massive, titanium-rich moon; En-Hazred, a planet farther inwards in the system's "Goldilocks Zone", dominated by forests and deserts, a hot planet that is nonetheless well within human habitability; Ul-Hazred, a blue gas giant whose deeper levels brim with valuable (for nuclear fuel) deuterium; and the system's orange-dwarf star, Il-Hazred. (compared to Earth's yellow-dwarf Sol and Midchilda's slightly-larger-than-Sol yellow dwarf Beacon)

Sorry if I ran long. I've had this all building up since the page 60's.