2011-03-14, 11:23 | Link #1281 | |
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A helpful way to effectively get a theme across is to show a case where someone failed to live up to the idea behind this theme, and suffered for it (that person may be Sayaka in this case).
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2011-03-14, 11:31 | Link #1283 | |
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In any I think the key would be that Madoka seems to care about EVERYONE, and that's a pretty consistent theme in all magical girl shows... What better way for Urobuchi to troll us than to be faithful to the one consistent mahou shojou theme, and change everything else? |
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2011-03-14, 11:54 | Link #1284 | |
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The only one working on love was Homura until this time loop, now she is resolved to do whatever she must in order to stop Madoka from contracting, I believe tha tmight include killing her if she must. I just get the feeling next episode she will kill Madoka and let the city get destroyed and the final episode will be a final loop where she is strong enough to save them all, possibly by perfecting her time-powers. |
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2011-03-14, 12:02 | Link #1285 | |
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2011-03-14, 12:10 | Link #1286 | |
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2011-03-14, 12:44 | Link #1287 |
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No, but by saying "love=tragedy" you are also implying that love is determinental to the characters when there are other causes. Love is the motivation and driving force behind many of the characters. When something physically and actually bad, happens, however, there are more factors than just love.
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2011-03-14, 13:00 | Link #1288 | ||
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2011-03-14, 15:42 | Link #1289 | ||
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To put my predictions in the concrete terms being discussed by people in this speculation thread. I feel that this is the final timeline, there will be no resets, and Homura's goals/requirements will be a sideshow. Actions do have consequences, but Homura's endless resets pursuing a 'perfect' or even 'satisfactory' outcome contradict this: does anything really matter if Homura can just redo it all? That isn't how real life works. A lot of you are seriously forgetting, guys, that this show is about Madoka. Forget Homura's dilemma for a moment, look at hers, and see if you can find any answer--see if you could find any value in confronting it now, for real, without any Homura time-travel escape hatch. Madoka will be resolving the conflict here, and that will be by accepting Kyuubey's contract of her own free will. The origin of all of Homura's suffering right now is a last-minute promise she made with a disillusioned and dying emotional Madoka. "Don't let me become a magical girl", she said, as having witnessed Kyuubey's tricks she felt she could only ever possibly regret it. However, even that Madoka wasn't perfect and all-knowing, guys, and the fact of the matter is that for this Madoka, both the current one facing a tremendous dilemma, and also any prospective Madoka's of the future should Homura continue this path, she will regret not contracting just as much. Because, in the end, Madoka's real feelings are that she does not want to stand by not protecting the things important to her. The fate of powerlessness is something Homura is pushing onto her at the hand of an old Madoka's feelings mistakenly. The difference that has emerged in this present timeline is that finally, Madoka really will know everything, and be prepared to make her wish shouldering the consequences. The key point this act will allow us as an audience to shoulder is that ultimately our happiness, our will and choice and feelings, really are our own responsibility. Even if it is unfair, even if it is painful, and we can hate and hate and blame around us; ultimately, that is how the world works, how nature and self-interest work, so it is up to us to surmount that and still be happy. Madoka is being perfectly set up to acknowledge that, and what Homura needs to learn to accept is that her promise was made to a different Madoka; that the real Madoka now, matured and cogent of the world, would never actually selfishly wish to be spared from all suffering. Madoka, having seen everything now, will be willing to confront the real world, in all it's evil and ugliness and suffering. And so, whatever her feelings, however beautiful her sacrifice, Homura has no right to stop her. Seriously guys, thinking about it, will you not agree with me about how presciently Madoka's mother's words apply to Homura? They are practically a mirror to her situation. A friend seems to be going somewhere wrong, and whatever you do things just don't turn out right. You're a good girl who is doing your best, and trying to do everything correctly, but sometimes you need to learn to accept a 'mistake' and let something bad happen. Sometimes, the 'right' thing isn't actually right for the world, and who knows, in the end it might not be as bad as you thought it was. More importantly, however, not clinging to ideals is sometimes necessary so everyone can move forward. Even yourself, even those you care for, even your enemies, and the world is still a fun and meaningful world to live in. That is the way things work in the adult (real) world, where you have to learn to accept that not everything can be perfect. In this show, the not perfect things will be that Homura needs to accept that Madoka will become a Mahou Shoujo, and the viewers will need to accept that Kyuubey needs to meet his quota to be able to be got rid of. Madoka, I think, will already have accepted that if she wants something in this world, she needs to make a sacrifice, even a sacrifice that is painful and does not guarantee anything.. What I think what this show will ultimately be about is Madoka's willingness to hope and move forward despite this. So anyway, here is my final, last bet, go down with the ship in flames prediction for the ending: current timeline is the last reset, no deus ex machina bullshit, Madoka will overcome WalpurgisNacht by contracting with Kyuubey. Homura's protests will be extinguished by understanding that this is Madoka's true intention; no reset will be triggered because she will either learn to accept Madoka's death, or Madoka will survive somehow (I am betting on this latter). Kyuubey will be dealt with by meeting his quota--he will leave the earth with what he came for, either because Madoka will be able to fulfill his quota without turning into a witch somehow, or else because she, Homura, and others have come up with a plan for dealing with witch Madoka. This story will be about 'hopes and dreams' due to Madoka's determination to continue on despite all this suffering; and the ending will be bittersweet because the audience will be forced to accept that the world isn't perfect. It will be an anime that speaks to the human condition :P, and a true masterpiece. Quote:
(The other thing that my explication of the 'emotional energy' system in my previous post offered was a scenario without power buildup in Madoka over timelines. I think the origin/basis of Puella Magi's magical power lies in the courage to hope despite facing the true harshness of reality. Materialistic wishes like most adults would wish for grant little power as they reflect mere cynicism. Meanwhile, naive idealistic wishes like Sayaka's are weak because she similarly can hardly comprehend that things won't work out for her. What Madoka's power and wish will arise from is a true courage and hope in the face of adversity; an optimism and faith that confronts and persists despite all the pain and ugliness this world can show people. In our harsh world where kind people like Madoka in general can only live timidly, the ability to take hold of courage and make that sort of wish would make Madoka someone truly rare and special.) Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-03-14 at 16:15. |
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2011-03-14, 16:35 | Link #1290 |
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Sol Falling - Your plot-based predictions for where this anime will go could very well be right. It's not hard to imagine the anime going that way, or close to it.
However, your thematic interpretation of such events would be off considerably, in my opinion. I don't see how Madoka choosing to sacrifice herself for the greater good would represent her casting aside her ideals. Indeed, a very strong case could be made that such an act would be entirely consistent with her ideals, and her desires for what she wants to be. And you yourself correctly point out that this Madoka will have a benefit that none others had, and that's of being able to make a fully informed decision on whether or not to contract with Kyubey. And that's why this decision will have a certain meaning and strength to it that the other decisions to contract (or not to contract) lacked.
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2011-03-14, 16:50 | Link #1291 | |||
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"Could I ask you one more thing? I don't want to become a witch. A lot of horrible and sad things have happened, but there are so many things I had in this world that I want to protect." Quote:
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You get more and more subjective the farther along you argue. I recommend if you want people to agree with you to reinforce your arguments with evidence. |
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2011-03-14, 16:55 | Link #1292 | |
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2011-03-14, 17:00 | Link #1293 | |
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2011-03-14, 17:04 | Link #1294 | ||
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It's precisely the sort of thing that Superman would do (if needbe), and we know how idealistic he is. I think that you may be confusing moral idealism with pragmatically perfect solutions. Yes, it's quite conceivable that Homura and Madoka will need to settle for less than a pragmatically perfect solution, but that's not the same as casting aside one's core moral values or ideals.
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2011-03-14, 17:11 | Link #1295 |
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While I can understand Sol Falling perspective I can't help but find such an outcome completely unpalatable. I feel Madoka sacrificing herself for the greater good will have meant nothing really changed. It seems pointless to me that her naive side and her now informed side will make the same decision.
I find that becoming a magical girl has been shown to be a fake sense of power while being human has been shown to be a fake sense of powerlessness. Even when Madoka was a MG she was unable to prevent the deaths of her friends. All that confidence and supposed talent led to no better of an outcome. Magical girls are just pawns and to overcome this fate she'd has to find a way to defeat Walpurgis night without it. Even if she dies in the end which I expect either her or Homura to do it is still a much better ending, imho. No dues ex machina just have to find out what QB is truly about as I don't think we've unlocked all the mysteries about him or his plots. Also I feel that if Madoka does eventually become a MG it will only make her and the other girl irrelevant cogs in QB entropy plots. There deaths for a "greater good" seem like we would be giving into QB's ideals that their lives are fairly meaningless compared to his grander aims. What will be the point of Madoka focusing in on the individual suffering of these girls if she become a MG proving his ideals. She's no longer naive about the consequences of being a magical girl that doesn't mean that making the same decision is any less foolish. Every path so far she's chosen to become a MG and its only led to similar ends so now why shouldn't she choose the truly harder path? The path of fighting even when "powerless".
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2011-03-14, 17:22 | Link #1296 |
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Sometimes, you have to choose to save innocent people rather than bringing villains to justice, due to the opportunity costs associated with both.
I really think that people should give up on the idea of Kyubey getting his "just desserts". I'm pretty skeptical of that happening. For one thing, I don't know if Homura and Madoka are the sort of people to try to completely wipe him out from a sheer longing for revenge. Homura is killing individual Kyubey's repeatedly, sure, but that's simply to protect Madoka.
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2011-03-14, 17:27 | Link #1297 | |
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2011-03-14, 17:39 | Link #1298 | |
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He could represent all the dishonesty, all the subterfuge, all the natural disasters, and all the inescapable hard choices, that we encounter in life. He could represent how picture perfect solutions are rarely there to be had in life. You get power, but it comes at a cost. You heal a boy's hand, but it comes at a cost. You protect a friend, but it comes at a cost. In real life, gaining power typically requires hard work, comparable to hunting witches in this anime's world perhaps. In real life, healing a boy's hand might require burying yourself in scientific research and study, diligently searching for a solution, giving up on much of your social life. You protect a friend, but that can take effort, and you still have to respect your friend's decisions... I don't completely share Sol Falling's perspective here, but I do see some possible real world analogies here, and Kyubey representing a sort of inescapable downside to life.
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2011-03-14, 17:40 | Link #1299 | |
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@Sol Falling But I still find the theory of Madoka sacrificing at the end hard to swallow. I mean, Madoka from timeline 4 already did that. The only difference this time would be that she knows everything about MGs, so it wouldn't be a sacrifice out of naive heroism... I understand that, but, isn't it still the same thing in the end? I mean, Madoka's actions and the outcome would still be the same, right? There would be a sense of hope, but in the end it wouldn't be real hope, IMO. Such an ending feels like a coup-out to me: Madoka: "Yes, now I know all the shit about the MGs, but I'm still going to do the same. You know, because I hope.......... " Sorry, I just don't see it. I mean, I want an actual ending, when Madoka's maturity and change of mind-set result in a change of actions, not her doing the same all over again. I don't know. Just some thoughts.
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2011-03-14, 17:53 | Link #1300 | ||||||||
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If this isn't where you are differing from me in my thematic impressions than I am afraid I might have to ask you to clarify? Which aspect of my interpretations of the possible plot or the characters are you disagreeing with exactly? Quote:
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-03-14 at 18:13. |
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