2010-08-30, 21:42 | Link #16841 | |||||||||||
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Besides, sometimes every step is wrong and not taking a step is the answer. I refer you to that Bernkastel TIP. Do we act or not act? Which is correct? It is not always such a good idea to pick an idea and hope for the best. Quote:
As for dying, I never said how he has to die. But it's a hundred times more plausible for a living person to die for any reason than for the insanity of personality death to hold water.
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2010-08-30, 22:14 | Link #16842 | |
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By sudden stroke X? Was it ever implied that Kanon had heart trouble? By terminal illness X? Was it implied that Kanon was sick? By mysterious murder-mechanism X? I think the story went over this so often, I think we can say it does not exist... By randomly falling over furniture X and breaking his neck? And you would still owe an explanation on why Kanon does no longer count into being present, while other peoples corpses obviously did. The problem is that the point that you are forcing on us is just as well your arguments biggest flaw. You say we do not bring enough evidence that Shkannon could be true, but your only suggestion why you do not believe it is your often mentioned point that you think it is 'insane'. Going by that description, nearly every mystery story featuring a disguise would be 'insane', yet there are enough which do feature one. Sometimes you just have to accept that fiction remains fiction and some things, as much as a work may try to be innovative, certain rules have to be followed. Your approach, I'm sorry but I think that way, is cheap as well. You prefer to attack every theory by doubting everything, while not believing anything and therefore never reaching any truth. What bothers me the most is this, 'I can't think of something, so nobody can' approach. Basically unless a mystery is so fair that it is boring, you never know the answer until the end, especially if certain cover up red herrings are constructed for us to be able to believe in them until the time runs out. Let me give an example of such a description trick Spoiler for 迷路館の殺人 by 綾辻行人:
For those who read it, that may not be a very realistic scenario by any chance, but it works as a mystery. And that's what people also try to rule out here, the chance of fiction sometimes relying on the fact that they are fiction...because in reality only a finite amount of murder scenarios can be possible. Accepting Shkannon of a possiblity does not beg the reader to bend the laws of physics or think of impossible acts not yet created by anybody. It is a simple disguise. Disguises are implied in the story in other contexts. Those two never appear alongside each other in front of Battler. It may seem cheap, but at some point we have to reach the conclusion and sorry, if until now everything that is left possible was all just a plot then this mystery is unsolvable...which I bet it is not.
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2010-08-30, 23:18 | Link #16843 | |||||||
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Fiction is more limited, as it must account only for those murders which are actually interesting and which have solutions not readily obvious. Most real crimes are, unfortunately, not nearly as clever as the culprit seems to think they are. A writer is confronted with a remarkably daunting task, but given a degree of advantage in being able to control what is presented (where in a real crime nothing stops somebody from poking around every little place). Quote:
Yes, nothing complicated about that. Quote:
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2010-08-31, 00:00 | Link #16844 |
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I really, really, really hate to get involved in this incredibly heated discussion. I have been thinking over the whole how does Kanon disappear issue. I am trying to approach it from a way that doesn't involve Shkannon. Now this does not mean that I outright deny Shkannon because I don't, but I also do not support it (not to mention I simply don't like it). So here goes.
When Erika is examining the guestroom before the logic error, something stood out to me. After she examines the room itself and the bathroom she narrows down to the closet, at which point Dlanor "throws a spear of blue truth" into the closet. Spoiler for screenshot:
Now if were to approach that from a less magical perspective here is what I come up with. A weapon would be needed that can get through the door without actually opening it. My thought would be a gun. This can work considering three guns are in the hands of the Krauss, Rudolf and Hideyoshi. Which if I am not mistaken leaves one still available. As for Erika actually killing someone, evidence is presented as she had just run all over the mansion killing five other people and beheading them. The manner in which she killed them is said to have varied as the beheading was only the means to confirm their death. So lets say Erika went to shoot Battler then behead him too. She doesn't find him in the bedroom or the bathroom which leaves the closet. She shoots through the door in case the person within is actually alive (which given her past victims is likely), so they cannot fight back. This hits Kanon in the chest as described through the screenshot above and Kanon dies. Now I could be wrong but when I read that part, it just seemed to fit with me. |
2010-08-31, 00:28 | Link #16845 | |||
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There is only a finite amount of realistic 'mystery murders' to be pulled of in real life, because of the very points you gave. A writer sometimes has to resort to the improbable, even the slightly 'insane', to make a puzzle out of something that would normally take only a few thoughts to solve. A man murdered his brother, was shot himself during that and died in his room. That is a very boring event if you put it like that, but a writer is forced to use some skills (that might seem very far out there) to make it interesting. A colourful murder alone just does not make a mystery. If we had found the culprit redhanded at the scene of crime, there never had been a legend of the golden witch in the first place. Quote:
Yes, when you put it that way I see where the problem lies. It's more a basic conflict of methods than a conflict of believing. The question is what exactly Ryukishi meant to say, when he said the mystery was solvable from the start. In basic term, a mystery is solved once you know the whodunnit and the howdunnit, because as is said in EP7 a whydunnit is often neglected in mystery fiction and is filled in only later when we actually learn of the past of the culprit. That is often, becauseeven hinting at the why is often a giveaway of the who...which only leaves the how, which is interesting, but not as interesting as pinning the culprit down. So the question that I myself can't answer so far is, if Ryukishi gave a solid key to the whydunnit during the first 4 Episodes, besides the forgotten promise. I myself tend to solve everything on it's own merrits and leave the connection for the end, which is a strange approach but something I have gotten used to after reading some novels. The whydunnit is of course still missing from the equation, but it's the question wether we can know or not. A mystery can easily be solvable without a why, a why just makes it solid, but often only the culprit can give us the actual why. Quote:
If there was someone in the closet to shoot in the first place it would have hit, living or dead Kanon would have been in the closet for her to hit. This would have guaranteed her victory as 'Erika shooting Kanon in the closet' = 'Kanon existed/exists in the guestroom'. The biggest flaw I see with this theory is, that I don't understand why Erika would let Battler win if she literally hit her goal.
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2010-08-31, 01:24 | Link #16846 |
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We already know he existed in the guestroom, it was stated he entered, so he had to have existed. But Erika had fired the shot, and killed Kanon. Beatrice says Kanon does not exist in this room. In that scene she opens the door to the closet, a body is there and shortly thereafter fades away. This seems to me that it is showing a dead body. The dead body is not counted as existing, though this is where I admit the largest issue in my logic exists. Classifying whether dead bodies count or not, you can come up with evidence to support either.
Besides even if I were to examine this from a Shkannon perspective it wouldn't really change. We have the deal about Kanon Erika and Battler each being their own body. Say Kanon shares this body with Shannon. Lets go with the personality death. Even if the Kanon personality is dead, he would have needed a body, Shannon, who is now left in the closet. Say we agree that dead bodies count as existing, why would it be possible for Shannon to be represented differently. In this case just because a body isn't exclusive doesn't mean it should be counted differently. "Kanon's" body would still be left, whether or not he "died". Unless you mean to argue that it is only his body when he is in use of it, which would mean that dead bodies don't count as you can't use your body when your dead. By your logic even if Kanon isn't separate from Shannon, he would still have had to enter the room and go into the closet where personality then dies. Which would mean Kanon personality dying in closet = Kanon exists/existed in closet. I am merely trying to examine this from multiple angles and I doubt my own theories. I'm simply trying to explore all possibilities until confirmation or denial of anything. I don't like locking myself to a single way of thinking unless I am told it is necessary. |
2010-08-31, 07:02 | Link #16847 | ||
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Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The messages in the bottles can't possibly be a cover up. Quite apparently the incident covered up himself perfectly, everything suggests that the case would have been closed and died forever. What really made the investigations reopen are the messages in the bottles themselves. So if their intended plan was to create a cover up, whoever did it failed miserably. But I don't think we are dealing with a stupid culprit here, plus it's hinted that the messages were written by Beatrice. Quote:
There is no problem with the interpretation of "Kanon died therefore he doesn't exist", after the many discussion in EP6 no one was ever able to debunk this. So yes it works. Now EP7 didn't confirm/denied Shkanon, didn't confirm/denied ghosterika, it barely had any conclusive info that would help us settle this matter... except for one thing. EP7 debunked the theory that Kanon was selected as the new heir. EP7 really made clear that the new heir is Yasu/Lion, even legally speaking. There is even a testament. Kinzo always wanted Lion to be the new heir, he never had any intention to name a heir after himself. From 1984 Lion is the new heir, there can't possibly be any other. A small correction. Kanon can be the new heir... if he's Lion, but then you either deny shannontrice (which is very hard to do at this point) or accept shkanon (and then the Kanon/Kinzo theory no longer have any purpose). Ironically Renall always stated that Shannontrice and shkanon are not really related, but I think we have reached the point where you can't deny shkanon if you accept shannontrice. In addition Kanon real name cannot be Kinzo. It was confirmed that the servant names are made using the first Kanji of their real names and adding the "on" kanji. You'd have to come up with a very unlikely theory to still say his real name is Kinzo. As a matter of facts the anti-shkanon faction lost one of their best theories after EP7. Then the only option that remains to explain how Kanon escaped from the cousin's room without using shkanon is that ridiculous theory about Kanon escaping between the small time gap where Erika asked everyone's positions and sealed the doors. However this is quite lame, because assumes Erika's incompetence. Both in the metaworld where she could have used a retroactive move, both in the real world, where she should have sealed the windows in advance, or at least check everyone's position just a sec before sealing the doors. It really doesn't make any sense to do otherwise unless you are retarded.
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2010-08-31, 07:41 | Link #16848 | |
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As for the whole Shkannontrice ordeal, yeah, it is getting rather difficult to deal with now. Though like I said, I neither support it or deny it, I simply don't like it. If it turns out to be right, not surprising, if it turns out to be wrong, I would be happy. I'm still just trying to approach things from as many different angles as possible. Shkannontrice is one of them, and arguably one of the bigger pieces to make fit in EP1-4. At least until George is named the culprit in EP8. |
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2010-08-31, 08:29 | Link #16849 | |
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We're given a fact: That the handwriting in the message bottles matches Maria's diary. We are thus led to believe that all of these things predate the explosion. However, I don't see a single thing that makes me feel actual confidence that these items can be dated to pre-Rokkenjima Incident. If you wanted to fabricate these things after the fact, it probably isn't too hard to do. You've got a following of devoted fans willing to believe almost anything about Rokkenjima, no matter how mysterious or crazy (and the more mysterious and crazy, the better). All we know for sure is that the person doing it is the same person in all three cases, not necessarily that they did it before the explosion. Why? I don't know, but obviously I'm insinuating here that "Beatrice" would still be alive, or at least someone carrying on in her role. Random theories would be that both "Beatrice" and Battler survived, and the message bottles were given to the group that would give them maximum exposure so that Battler would eventually find and read them. Or Battler survived and wrote the bottles and possibly the diary himself. Probably not. I don't know.
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2010-08-31, 09:08 | Link #16850 | |||||
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First of all, that saying also accounts for interpretation. Once alternative interpretations are made impossible, the one that remains is the truth. Quote:
When did I ever claim Shkanon to be true? I'm just pointing out the flaws in your logic. Quote:
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That said, I'm not completely for Shkanon. But to deny the possibility without considering it is...eh. Ryuukishi is not cheating so much as abusing loopholes here. |
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2010-08-31, 10:00 | Link #16855 | |
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Oh come on, use your imagination and you can think of a dozen different totally plausible ways a person could die in this scenario. Expand your thinking and ask whether a person who enters a room must be perfectly healthy in the first place. "Heart Attack X" is silly, but the idea of walking into a room with some kind of mortal condition is expansible to plenty of actually plausible eventualities.
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How many times have I said "assuming <theory> is true," even for things I don't like? A lot. And when I take those theories places, they don't get where people say they should be getting. How often does someone in favor of this purposeless identity assume it false and demonstrate how many things simply don't work without it? Almost never. What conclusion can I draw from that? That they refuse to? That they can't? That they could but won't? The right answer does not require such cowardice to defend. The right answer is right, isn't that the idea? So if you have the right answer you should be able to cleanly and immediately demonstrate to me that, for any situation that relates to the crimes you can possibly think of, assuming your (correct) answer is wrong makes those situations' resolutions unreasonable. On the weight of demonstrating this for every single mystery, you will demonstrate beyond any shadow of doubt that any other solution cannot possibly work. The right answer in a mystery can do this. Even where an alternative exists for one situation, the right answer will make sense for that situation and all others. If you show that to me I will have no choice but to believe it. I've asked that from the beginning and no one can give it to me. So if somebody here or anywhere has the correct answer, they haven't shared it with me. In the alternate, they have, and the answer is bad. But none of us want that, surely.
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2010-08-31, 10:13 | Link #16856 | ||||||
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I'll accept your challenge and use my imagination a bit though. I won't use the death trick though. Instead... -At the time of the logic error, Shannon was already inside the closet. So she didn't go in or out in the first place. She and Battler were making out. Shannontrice was into some very weird stuff. Kanon appeared and was like "what." and "saved" Battler from the weird stuff. Then Battler went out. Kanon and Shannon were inside the closet for a second, until Kanon was like "screw it I'm not staying inside a closet with my pervert of an adoptive sister" and left. Shannon then locked the room one more time. Shannon never went in or out during the logic error because she was already there in the first place. ...What? It could happen! Quote:
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There are clues for it. It could be an answer. That is the point I'm trying to make it. I don't even want it to be the answer. I would rather have something else. But yeah. |
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2010-08-31, 13:13 | Link #16857 | |
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# [Request: 'After the deconstruction of the closed rooms, then excluding me, only Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Gohda entered the rooms'.] Acknowledged. [However, this only applies to the current point in time. It's possible that some later development in the game will cause more people to enter.] But 'later developments' were denied by Erika's retroactive seal: "Allow me to REPORT. ......Battler's guest room was sealed at the time of Lady Erika's inspection of the CORPSE." So it's impossible for someone to exist there. And Dine's rules don't really apply to the previous games (if at all). See episode 4, for example, and try to explain every death without suicide/accident, so that in the end Battler will be alone on the island. |
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2010-08-31, 13:25 | Link #16858 | |||
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Of course, it would then beg the question of how they got out of their own locked rooms. But that's easy enough to solve. Quote:
When is his next interview? I have a feeling Dine will probably come up there. So you want me to solve episode 4 without violating Dine? Fine. I'll take you on. The killer is Jessica. After she killed everyone, she set off the bomb, and died from Asthma. Natural death is not covered as either accident or suicide. Therefore she will murder Battler even though she is already dead. Her physical condition has been foreshadowed before, so it wouldn't be a surprise if she died due to the stress of the events. This satisfies foreshadowing conditions, the one culprit condition, and the no suicide condition. |
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2010-08-31, 13:30 | Link #16859 | |
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That is why no one has been able to convince you, not because the evidence isn't there.
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2010-08-31, 13:38 | Link #16860 | |||
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And this solution isn't better than 'gap between guesthouse rooms' sealing'. Quote:
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