Immrigrant's Rights

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by Aoie_Emesai

Tanuki, it seems that you feel very strongly against illegal immigrations. But you prove your point quite well and I also agree with your reasoning too. Tanuki, do you speak from personal experiences or just from education and personal beliefs? Now I know that personal beliefs seems to out power regular judgements, but we have our own beliefs and ideal how the world should run, so i'll just be quiet here.

I guess more time is required to solve this problem. But while we wait, i'll just watch and read. ^_^

Both from education, family history, and personal beliefs. America is a relatively young nation when compared to most others in the world like England, France, Spain, Italy, China, Japan, and so on. With the exception of native indians, everyone in the US now could look back a short distance in their family tree and point to when and where their ancestors immigrated to the US. Some came to the US because they were fleeing religious or political persecution in their native country, others came because they hoped to gain a measure of the economic good life for themselves and their family that the american dream promised. They arrived in the US and followed the immigration laws which were in effect at that time to become legal naturalized citizens.

Illegal immigrants are following a different path though towards the common destination of a gaining a better life by moving to the US. They are trying to take a shortcut that has little regard for anything other than what they want. They don't respect the existing immigration laws of the country they are traveling to. They don't appear to care what the legal citizens living in the country they are moving into think about what they are doing. Instead it looks like they this is the situation...you (the US government) can't find us (the illegal immigrants) to kick us out, there are millions of us already in your country with more coming in each day because your border security has been such a joke, we've been living and working here for years and in many cases are able to pocket all of our earnings without having to pay any state or federal taxes on our gross income because we are often paid in cash for our labor, and we can hurt your economy if you propose legislation that would deny our demand for amnesty and citizenship now (or seriously attempt to block others like us from entering your country illegally in the future and gaining citizenship then). Others may disagree, but to me that doesn't seem right, fair, acceptable, and or a few dozen other words I can think of to apply to this. It like a slap in the face to legal immigrants who came to america and worked within the existing immigration system at the time of their arrival to become naturalized citizens.

[Lexander]

Illegals complaining about mistreatment make my blood boil.

There are much more qualified poor people out there and they DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF JUMPING A BORDER.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that people with PHDs have to play 'the green card lottery', while some border jumper standing around at Home Depot gets it by standing around at Home Depot for a few years ...

You want to talk about equal opportunity ... how about you start importing a person who can't jump the border for every person that does.


Let's see ... my dad has a PHD ... learned english before coming to the U.S. ... got a work visa and was invited to work in the U.S. He's paid all his taxes just like any American.

He's not cutting bushes ... something a fucking teenager could master... instead he's developing wireless radios that the air-force is looking to buy (as well as a bunch of U.S. agricultural companies.)

I can give you a paragraph on how poor we were too.
Also ... how our relatives are still poor, don't want to be poor ... can do way more than bathroom cleaning ... but can't jump a border to do it.
Instead they are stuck in an ex soviet country with about as much job opportunity as mexico for an education driven job.

[HoboGod]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

And what kind of jobs would these be? Are our compnaies already outsourcing high paying high tech to countires like india?

It isn't a high paying job anymore if they get only a fraction of what an American would get.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

If you haven't figure it form of the people who on here it is ILLEGAL immagrants that most people have a problem with not legal immagration. And yes there are people who are against immagration both legal and illegal but so does every other country. At least in the USA those type of people are the minority not the majority.

Legal or Illegal doesn't matter to me; I don't make distintions. The only difference I see is that the illegal ones didn't have the money to enter the US in a traditional way.

On the subject of illegal immigrants, did anyone see The Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada with Tommy Lee Jones? It's a rather recent independant film, but that movie was really heartbreaking and showed the hardships of these people.

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by Lexander

There are much more qualified poor people out there and they DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF JUMPING A BORDER.

When you mentioned this I started thinking "What if a country other than Mexico suddenly appeared and occupied that territory bordering the US today...like Japan for instance?" For some strange reason a mental picture of white boys heading to the border looking to illegally cross into Japan so they could make a holy pilgrimage to Akihabara and then meet and date japanese high school girls just came to mind.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by HoboGod

It isn't a high paying job anymore if they get only a fraction of what an American would get.

The wages are low compare to what thier US counterpart are making but it is still higher then what most people are making on avg around them. And in that economy it is consider a high paid job because every dollar they earn goes further then a dollar here in the US. If the US compnaies are going to pay someone else as much in another country to do the same job. Why would they bother to outsorce it int he first place?

Legal or Illegal doesn't matter to me; I don't make distintions. The only difference I see is that the illegal ones didn't have the money to enter the US in a traditional way.

As Legal Immagrant I do make a distinction. Also when my family immgrate to the US. We had around a hundred dollars and my parents were not consider any kind of skill tech worker. My dad the day after he got off the plane went straight to work in a meat shop. And my mom went to work at a factory that she is still working there on a part time basis. We never took any type of welfare or any kind of assisstance, other then reduce lunches at school. We work, pay taxes and didn't break the law. So when I see those demonstration demanding things. The first thought then went through my mind was what the hell give you people the right to demand anything when you are not even here legally when legal immagrant havn't demand a thing. And they have the nerve to wave around a foreign flag on US soil protesting the US government not to throw them out. Anyone else besides me find this incredibly outrageous.

On the subject of illegal immigrants, did anyone see The Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada with Tommy Lee Jones? It's a rather recent independant film, but that movie was really heartbreaking and showed the hardships of these people.

Yes they have a hard life. But what gives them the right to cut in line ahead of other people who are facing just as much hardship but are legally waiting in line to come to this country.

[HoboGod]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

If the US compnaies are going to pay someone else as much in another country to do the same job. Why would they bother to outsorce it int he first place?

That's from a capitalist standpoint, not a humanist.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

And they have the nerve to wave around a foreign flag on US soil protesting the US government not to throw them out. Anyone else besides me find this incredibly outrageous.

Yeah, I agree with you 100% on that. It seems that wasn't very well thought out.

[Vaines]

Originally Posted by tanuki

Both from education, family history, and personal beliefs. America is a relatively young nation when compared to most others in the world like England, France, Spain, Italy, China, Japan, and so on. With the exception of native indians, everyone in the US now could look back a short distance in their family tree and point to when and where their ancestors immigrated to the US. Some came to the US because they were fleeing religious or political persecution in their native country, others came because they hoped to gain a measure of the economic good life for themselves and their family that the american dream promised. They arrived in the US and followed the immigration laws which were in effect at that time to become legal naturalized citizens.

I would just like to remind you that at first there were absolutely no laws for entering the United States, and that it took time before any immigration law came into effect, and at first it was only to limit numbers. So, in other words, many ancestors of "legal" immigrants today are in a sense not really "legal" because their entry to the USA did not involve subscribing to any entry laws or requirements besides getting there in the first place.

Illegals complaining about mistreatment make my blood boil.

There are much more qualified poor people out there and they DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF JUMPING A BORDER.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that people with PHDs have to play 'the green card lottery', while some border jumper standing around at Home Depot gets it by standing around at Home Depot for a few years ...

You want to talk about equal opportunity ... how about you start importing a person who can't jump the border for every person that does.


Let's see ... my dad has a PHD ... learned english before coming to the U.S. ... got a work visa and was invited to work in the U.S. He's paid all his taxes just like any American.

He's not cutting bushes ... something a fucking teenager could master... instead he's developing wireless radios that the air-force is looking to buy (as well as a bunch of U.S. agricultural companies.)

I can give you a paragraph on how poor we were too.
Also ... how our relatives are still poor, don't want to be poor ... can do way more than bathroom cleaning ... but can't jump a border to do it.
Instead they are stuck in an ex soviet country with about as much job opportunity as mexico for an education driven job.

So your point of view is that only the people with high-level skills should be allowed within richer countries? I understand that you don't want to see all the poor people coming to the USA just to gain a potential advantage (potential because since they're illegal, as somebody mentioned already above, they don't have most of the real advantages the USA gives out ot its citizens, and also a lot of times they live very hard lives). However that just sounds to me as stealing other countries' brains (just as the USA has naturalised tennismen, etc) and leaving the poor in the poor countries and not trying to help them at all. Yes, as someone said, it could help more to improve the quality of living in those very same countries, but trust me first thing it's difficult, second thing sometimes it's just not done well, and third thing, it will take time if it ever happens.

[Komataguri]

Originally Posted by Vaines

So your point of view is that only the people with high-level skills should be allowed within richer countries? I understand that you don't want to see all the poor people coming to the USA just to gain a potential advantage (potential because since they're illegal, as somebody mentioned already above, they don't have most of the real advantages the USA gives out ot its citizens, and also a lot of times they live very hard lives). However that just sounds to me as stealing other countries' brains (just as the USA has naturalised tennismen, etc) and leaving the poor in the poor countries and not trying to help them at all. Yes, as someone said, it could help more to improve the quality of living in those very same countries, but trust me first thing it's difficult, second thing sometimes it's just not done well, and third thing, it will take time if it ever happens.

No, he is saying that his father, whom worked hard to become a intelligent, worthy addition to society has to work hard and go through all teh trials and tribulations and costs to become a contributive member of American society.


While some asshole who slips through a chainlink fence can do it for free, and have a much easier time when hes in the country.



I is perfectly understandable for anyone who has had to deal with LEGAL immigration into the united states to be absolutely pissed off at the boarder jumpers.


The boarder jumpers essentially spit in the face of everyone who is working hard to earn and deserve their place in American citizenry.

[Roopoo]

Originally Posted by Vaines

I would just like to remind you that at first there were absolutely no laws for entering the United States, and that it took time before any immigration law came into effect, and at first it was only to limit numbers. So, in other words, many ancestors of "legal" immigrants today are in a sense not really "legal" because their entry to the USA did not involve subscribing to any entry laws or requirements besides getting there in the first place.

.

Sorry but if there were no laws for getting into the USA in the beginning then how can those people who entered under those circumstances be illegal? That doesn't make sense. The fact that there was no law means there was no law to be broken.

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by Roopoo

Sorry but if there were no laws for getting into the USA in the beginning then how can those people who entered under those circumstances be illegal? That doesn't make sense. The fact that there was no law means there was no law to be broken.

If the native indian tribes in the US had known back then what would eventually become of their people by today, every tribe from the west coast to the east coast would have had a powerful incentive to be waiting at the shore with arrows cocked in bows when the explorers and settlers started to arrive. They might not have been able to keep foreigners out indefinitely due to the difference in weapons technology, but they could have made settlement in the new world so dangerous and costly in the long run that europeans would have wanted to negotiate and agree to abide by limitations on future immigration. Not that treaties with the white men ever proved to be worth much, but being surrounded and continually outnumbered by pissed off indians not wanting to be driven to the point of extinction might have given the foreigners a greater incentive to try and honor more of their agreements with the indians over time. But that wasn't how history played out though, and look at what happened to the native indians as a result.

Anyway, this is just intended as a general example of what happens when an indigenous population in a country does not have or fails to enforce a system of immigration laws which imposes restrictions on the flow of foreigners into their country. The indigenous population can become outnumbered and they can then find themselves placed at a political, economic, and social disadvantage of their own making.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by HoboGod

The only difference I see is that the illegal ones didn't have the money to enter the US in a traditional way.

btw not everyone who enters the US legally is rich or have a phd. Theres a lot of poor people with basic skills also enters the US legally. Some of the people who works in the factory my moms works at are here legally and only have basic skills and doesn't know word of english.

[HoboGod]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

btw not everyone who enters the US legally is rich or have a phd. Theres a lot of poor people with basic skills also enters the US legally. Some of the people who works in the factory my moms works at are here legally and only have basic skills and doesn't know word of english.

I was not implying that only the wealthy enter the US legally. But generally speaking, it is ussually the very poorest of the poor who have no other means but entering illegally. When it comes right down to it, I'm sure every illegal immigrant would have happily entered the country legally if they could or knew how.

[Gryff]

Illegal immigrants provide a lot of the basic services america uses. Ever used a taxi in a city? Ever had a maid? yada yada yada. You get products/services cheap because of cheap labour. Then bitch when they want to go live somewhere nice.
They get to be you're economic slaves and cut the price of your shoes in 1/5th but you don't want them in your back yard?

America was built on immigration, an anti-immigrant america is like an anti-god christian.

PS: Is it terribly wrong of me to admit I read this as "Immigrants Robots" when I first saw the thread

[Komataguri]

Originally Posted by HoboGod

I was not implying that only the wealthy enter the US legally. But generally speaking, it is ussually the very poorest of the poor who have no other means but entering illegally. When it comes right down to it, I'm sure every illegal immigrant would have happily entered the country legally if they could or knew how.

And I'm sure they'd love to have a brand new high end sports car.


But you don't just shrug it off if they steal one.


Same principle.

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by Gryff

Illegal immigrants provide a lot of the basic services america uses. Ever used a taxi in a city? Ever had a maid? yada yada yada. You get products/services cheap because of cheap labour. Then bitch when they want to go live somewhere nice.

Oh I don't doubt that there are illegals using fake ID's to do all sorts of things they shouldn't be, which is why the latest INS raids across 26 states at Netherlands-based IFCO Systems plants in the US led to the arrest of almost 1200 illegal aliens along with seven current or former managers.

A foreign based company with facilities in the US hiring illegal aliens here to improve their profits...now that's ironic.

Originally Posted by Gryff

They get to be you're economic slaves and cut the price of your shoes in 1/5th but you don't want them in your back yard?

[Looking at inside of shoes] Yep, just as thought New Balance...Made In China. I could grab items at random around me to see where they were manufacturered but I already have a real good idea where they were made, and so should you. The "Made In America" label is mighty damn scarce these days.

Originally Posted by Gryff

America was built on immigration, an anti-immigrant america is like an anti-god christian.

I haven't seen anyone in this discussion thread yet who appeared to be anti-immigrant...the complaint is against illegal immigrants. I know that can be a novel concept that people living outside of the US may never have considered because they can't imagine millions of foreigners being able to just sneak across their countries border and begin living and working in their country with no documentation or using forged documents. But this is exactly what has happened in the US. Most Americans have no or few problems with legal immigrants, it's the sneaky bunch of trespassers crossing a border illegally that people in the US have a problem with.

[HoboGod]

Originally Posted by Komataguri

And I'm sure they'd love to have a brand new high end sports car.


But you don't just shrug it off if they steal one.


Same principle.

No, I'd say this principle is closer to stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family.

[Vaines]

Originally Posted by Roopoo

Sorry but if there were no laws for getting into the USA in the beginning then how can those people who entered under those circumstances be illegal? That doesn't make sense. The fact that there was no law means there was no law to be broken.

Did I say anywhere that they were illegal? No, I said they weren't legal, since there were no laws at the time, which means that they also weren't illegal I just wanted to point out that many of those that are legal today weren't in the past and had more chances of coming over to the US with no problem than today.

I haven't seen anyone in this discussion thread yet who appeared to be anti-immigrant...the complaint is against illegal immigrants. I know that can be a novel concept that people living outside of the US may never have considered because they can't imagine millions of foreigners being able to just sneak across their countries border and begin living and working in their country with no documentation or using forged documents. But this is exactly what has happened in the US. Most Americans have no or few problems with legal immigrants, it's the sneaky bunch of trespassers crossing a border illegally that people in the US have a problem with.

Actually it's not a novel concept (apart maybe the number), as in many countries of Europe (some countries like France are trying to pass bills opposing this now, but we had it a lot) per example if one person lived in France illegally, he was by right entitled to French nationality. Simply, yes. But then again, France had a special immgration plan, it wanted to make everybody on its soil "French" integrated, not that it really happened, but at least officially

[Lexander]

Originally Posted by Vaines

So your point of view is that only the people with high-level skills should be allowed within richer countries? I understand that you don't want to see all the poor people coming to the USA just to gain a potential advantage (potential because since they're illegal, as somebody mentioned already above, they don't have most of the real advantages the USA gives out ot its citizens, and also a lot of times they live very hard lives). However that just sounds to me as stealing other countries' brains (just as the USA has naturalised tennismen, etc) and leaving the poor in the poor countries and not trying to help them at all. Yes, as someone said, it could help more to improve the quality of living in those very same countries, but trust me first thing it's difficult, second thing sometimes it's just not done well, and third thing, it will take time if it ever happens.

What I don't understand the march ...
They want to complain about being here ... fine ... I know plenty of poor people that would take their place legally, do a better job and not complain about it at the end of the day.
Even if you finally save up for a ticket you still have to play the green card lottery in order to come here. The percentage of winners is tiny.
You could get lucky and get a work visa, but that usually doesn't happen because there is only a handful of American companies branching off in Armenia.

Like I said, you don't have to be from a South American country to live a hard life and want to be in this country.
Why do you think education automatically means rich?
Yeah ... maybe in the U.S. it does ... that's why people want to be here so bad.
If nobody hires you, you can't use your diploma right?

And I just can't imagine anywhere in the U.S. being worse than what we used to go through.
If you have electricity, running water and less than 7 people living in a small 2 bedroom apartment ... you're already doing better.
We are not rich now either. Lower middle class is where we are, despite our best efforts. 3 family members workings fulltime and 1 in high school.
Just because we don't make minimum wage doesn't mean we don't work as much or want it any less.

There is really nothing to march about.

And as far as helping the poor country out ...
That's up to the immigrants, not the United States.
Right now I'm working in a startup with a branch in Armenia. We have the management and manufacturing in the silicon valley, but the software and some of the hardware design is done by a team over there.
We have more employees working in Armenia than in California.
A small portion of the American money is finding it's way back.

Say guys like my dad stayed in Armenia ... their brains would have gone to complete waste because our country isn't developed enough to give them an opportunity to do this. Who would finance this?

Everyone ends up as a winner. I just don't understand why you wouldn't want more legal immigrants here?
We waited 8 years and had to deal with all this INS nonsense until we got a green card. (my application got lost somewhere in the process and INS delayed us ... oh a few years)

[Vaines]

Why do you think education automatically means rich?

During my studies at university I came to see how many of the people that had education, especially in the poorest countries, had to have money to send someone in their family to school/high school/university. Note that I said many, not all. And when I mean rich, I mean rich in THAT country.

And I just can't imagine anywhere in the U.S. being worse than what we used to go through.
If you have electricity, running water and less than 7 people living in a small 2 bedroom apartment ... you're already doing better.
We are not rich now either. Lower middle class is where we are, despite our best efforts. 3 family members workings fulltime and 1 in high school.
Just because we don't make minimum wage doesn't mean we don't work as much or want it any less.

Did I say anything against that? No, I said that "a lot of times they live very hard lives", which is exactly the case you're showing me.

And as far as helping the poor country out ...
That's up to the immigrants, not the United States.
Right now I'm working in a startup with a branch in Armenia. We have the management and manufacturing in the silicon valley, but the software and some of the hardware design is done by a team over there.
We have more employees working in Armenia than in California.
A small portion of the American money is finding it's way back.

I honestly don't think that most US companies placed elsewhere in the poorer world send more money out to the people in those poorer countries than in the US. For several reasons, people there usually have lower salaries, etc.

Say guys like my dad stayed in Armenia ... their brains would have gone to complete waste because our country isn't developed enough to give them an opportunity to do this. Who would finance this?

I never said don't let your dad have a chance. I said that it would be better for all those countries' economies if the educated people there didn't systematically go elsewhere, like to the US. Because as long as everybody does that, those countries will remain poor. You can give them all the financing you want, they won't have the minds or the infrastructure to build.

Everyone ends up as a winner. I just don't understand why you wouldn't want more legal immigrants here?
We waited 8 years and had to deal with all this INS nonsense until we got a green card. (my application got lost somewhere in the process and INS delayed us ... oh a few years)

I'm not sure everybody ends up as a winner (see some of the reasons above). I never said that there shouldn't be more legal immigrants to the US (damn I don't see how people can see things I didn't say in my words...) but that it would be better for the poorer countries and their development (which in turn means more markets for the US companies -among others- in the end) if the legal immigration in the US didn't just take the most educated people out of those countries and blocked the poorest ones.

Now, I hope I've made myself clearer to everyone. And Lexander, I'm sure you've gone through hardships, but several people like you have generalised their examples of hardships through legal immigration and made it the reason why illegal immigrants shouldn't be here and "have it easier". I don't think they have it easier.

And, lastly, I honestly believe this movement has more to do with something deeper in the US immigrated population (both legal and illegal) than with just the currently under scrutiny Immigration Law which is in the talks. To believe that it has only to do with that is in my opinion erroneous.

[Komataguri]

Originally Posted by HoboGod

No, I'd say this principle is closer to stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family.

Yes, because they would just DIE if you didn't get across that border.