Immrigrant's Rights

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Those same indians came over form Asia so there no NATIVE americans.

If you came a few hundred years ago and they came tens of thousands years ago, yes they can be considered as native Americans, whereas you will be considered as definitely an immigrant compared to them.

Originally Posted by Komataguri

....Because only American citizens have the rights that are afforded American citizens, you blathering dolt.

As far as I know, any x country's citizen, who can bring in millions of dollars to US, despite being searched for serious crimes in his home country - as long as it is not related to US -, can earn the rights to be a US citizen rather easily.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Originally Posted by Komataguri
Illegal immigrants have none of the American rights they are crying foul over


The only rights they have are basic human rights [ the right to eat, not be tortured, ect]

I think INTERPOL would have something to say about that...

[Roopoo]

I think we have to remember we are talking about human beings and we should also remember the saying "there but for the grace of God go I". Meaning that we are so lucky to be born in the country to which we call home. It is so easy for us to criticise other people but we are all so lucky to be able to do this. Some people cannot do this. There are some people in this world whose ambition is simply to survive the day, to live for tomorrow. I think there are some horrible people in this world. I am thinking in particular of places like India where there is so much wealth but so much poverty. How can these extremely rich people live with themselves when they see others dying on the footpaths. No wonder these (those dying) people want to escape and survive. It is so unfair that their lives are such hell and ours are such heaven. I agree that people should not be allowed to come into a country without meeting certain requirements but what I do believe is that some countries need to tidy up their own backyards. If this happened in the first place we would have less legal immigrants.

[Sakaki]

It's things like this that sometimes people aren't pleased with Mexico's stance that the U.S. should have an open border.

Mexico Works to Bar Non-Natives From Jobs

[Ending]

Sounds pretty harsh, those measures Mexico is driving for. In fact, they sound exactly like racial discrimination. Not that many other countries are any better, since they just use a bit less blatant measures (work-permits -> work-permits with special rules).

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by Sakaki

It's things like this that sometimes people aren't pleased with Mexico's stance that the U.S. should have an open border.

Mexico Works to Bar Non-Natives From Jobs

Politicians and activists in Mexico have usually been more than just a bit hypocritical when it comes to their position on US immigration policies. Of the "Don't do as we do, do as we say you should do" variety when complaining about how the US should handle illegal aliens from Mexico and elsewhere who walk across the US border. If the US proposed reciprocity in immigration policies with Mexico (guest worker provision specifically), so that citizens on both sides of the border would be dealing with roughly equal policies and laws, politicians and activists in Mexico probably wouldn't like that idea very much. But then that's a problem with maintaining a double standard.

[leona_senshi]

Ok, I've read almoust everything here, aperantly there's a lot of bull shit being said on both sides... so I mightest well say something...

First off, I live in Mexico, and YES, my country's political and economical situation suck, I have to admit, we've been that way since over 70 years, all thanks to a stupid political group called PRI, this political group has been leading Mexicans to misery ever since they took command thanks to the votes of the people, they were preaty much scum bags, rip offs, liars and they practytly stole the peoples money for all that time, making the politicians pockets grow and Mexico's economy decline. what else was there for a country with a lot of unemploide people tring to survive? what else can some one do? go to a better country, unfortunatly or furtunatly we live in border with the US, a country with better economical situation as well as polical.

This has been happening since then, just recently in 2000, Mexico elected a new Polical Group called PAN, in wich leader we find as the current president Vicente Fox, ever since Fox arrive to the presedancy people have been unhappy with they way Fox has been runnin the nation (practicly the people who oppose PAN) Mexico was promised a change, but you cannot change in 6 years what has happend in 72 years back...change comes with a lot of time in between, that's what mexicans unfortunatly don't understan, one of those changes was to have a higher emploiment percent in the country, so that less people would inmagrate to the US, the main reason: have less deaths because people wanted to cross over to the US ilegaly to help their families survive because their oun country can't provide what they need.

Since Mexicans are good at agrucultural activities (it IS the #1 commercial activity in Mexico) a lot of people hired mexicans becuase it was a low income job, something that residets didn't want to do (like some one said earlier) but even though it is a low income job, a Us dollar is higher than a Mexican peso, in other words it's 11 to 1 when it comes to money exchange, now all this wouldn't have gone out of hand if 2 things would have been done a longgg time ago:

1.- If the people that HIRE ilegal inmagrits would NOT hire them even if they beg them to.

2.- If Mexico's economy would rise from where it has been the last 70 years.

Building walls I think has nothing to do with keeping ilegal inmagrants to pass as long as People in The US still hire ilegal inmagrants, not just mexicans but other inmagrants also.
I think that the first people we should blame everything and have them pay the price are the actual people that hire ilegals and mexicos politicians (specialy the ones that stole money like the ex-president Carlos Salinas).

I undertand what Americans think about ilegals, but I see a lot of things that would also be affected if no more ileagals would work in the Us, the first thing that I would see if the agricultural field jobs, who would replace the ilegals if no one want's to do the "dirty work" seriously, or a lot of other filds like cleanign or just attending a fast food resturant. that's the only thing I disagree with the why a lot of the people in the US think, that yet they see mexicans like a plage but they don't want to see that mexicans also contribute to the country's economical part just by doing all the "hard work" that no one want's to do, they get paid less and so the US has more money to spend on things ... *cough* war *cough*.

I disagree that ilegals want to change things, being an inmagrits doesn't give them the right to ask for something if they are not in their oun country, I think that what they did on may 1rst was just something stupid... (if someone would hear me say that hear I would be dead by now) the most problamatic thing if the us were to actully deport a lot of inmagrats is that they would land in the better parts of the country, meaning.... the borders, I have to say that the best cities in Mexico are the ones that have border with the US, I live in Tijuana, already this city has grown tremendesly that Tijuanenses are being left with out jobs becuause other people that come from the south get paid less and don't say anything about it becuase they're used to it, leaving a lot of bosses beliving that they can pay the minimun (wich is 87 pesos per day * about 8 dlls) I honestly hate to live in a city in witch 7 years ago was not as congested as now, that houses were biger than just 10ft by 24ft, who do I blame it on... people from the south, people that failed to cross over and stayed here becuase it was the closes thing they can get.

I sinceraly would love to live in the US,I love San Diego, I love to cross over every week, at least I can shop and buy a lot of things that are more cheaper and better quality than in Mexico, gasoline is practicly the same price, but it's lesser quality, I prefer filling up in San Ysidro than in TJ becuase it goes on longer. the only thing I hate is making that long assss line to cross over on the weekends. I have all my family living over there, a couple of aunts in LA others in Las Vegas, they didn;t cross over ilegali if your thinking that* everybody had to go to inmagration to get their legalship. chit chat appart, back to the discution.

In conclusion, I think that Both sides should be blamed not just the mexicans and latinos.
Ever saw the Movie "a day with out mexicans"??? it only happend in California, but that's not far away from the truth if no more inmagrats would be arrown (I thought it was very entertainging and funny at some times.)

Hope I don't see more of "I hope they go to away" or some other thing like that, why not see the reasons that made this happend and then try and resolve it, not just by building the "GREAT WALL OF USA" but by actually attacking the root of the problem.

[Komataguri]

An amusing article relating to Mexican immigration policy


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060521/...g_immigrants_1

[Zero Shinohara]

The word "fine" sounds like it they are criminals.

They actually are. I'm yet to browse through the whole topic, but I don't know if someone has pointed this out yet.

Crossing the border and entering the country illegaly is a misdemeanor, and might be changed to a fellony anytime soon. Since fines are applied to you if you get a speeding ticket or if you commit a minor crime, I think the word "Fine" fits in very well.

The problem is the political, economic, and social mess running from Mexico into Central America. If things were better there, the people living there would have little reason to illegally immigrate into the US

Central AND South America, right? Seriously, the whole American Continent with exeption of Canada and the US are in pretty bad economic shape. Even Chile, which had been a powerful US ally economically is not doing that well, probably because the new president is a communist and has her connections with Chavez and Fidel. But that's another topic I don't want to discuss.

The problem is that these countries are all for nationalism and anti-americanism, which makes the people stupid. Those who know the tough political situation the continent is facing choose to move to better places where they can get the least bit of security in their lives. Come on, being an illegal here is MUCH better than being a legal, middle-class worker in Brazil, for example (My experience, though I'm a legal US Citizen and resident). Here you might work your ass off, but at least they have jobs. And that's an issue in mostly all other CA/SA countries right now.

I digress, but going back to the topic, I think that the construction of the wall over the border of Mexico is the best decision made on this whole immigration process. I feel sorry for the people who now don't have anywhere else to go but to stay opressed in their own land, but you know that the US and Canada can't take care of the whole world. (Which brings about another issue: If all these countries alledge themselves as anti-american, then why the f*ck are their populations coming here in the first place? Probably because those who get here learn that being anti-american is what has driven South and Central america to such a deep hole). To the people who've been here, I'm willing to pay off a few dozen dollars more out of my pocket every year to support for their legal stay here. Legal stay AND legal status, because we all know that we've got some serious problems with people coming from countries where there're no laws or law enforcement (like my own).

I could write a 10-page essay on this, but I seriously doubt anyone would read, so yeah.

[Aisu]

I believe that the US has to take blame the coming and going of immigration. If they would have done something from the beggining, when things started to fill up, then they wouldnlt have to worry right now about what to build in order to keep them away. The US is said to be the land of oportunity but as many could notice the immigrant will do any kind of job in order to have food on the table. Americans are just a little bit picker (not that it is a bad thing) however, the american does not complain when immigrant take such low jobs, but as time proceeds, immigrants escalete on their posts, and eventually surpass the job of an average american. And only then, the american will get angry. I half agree with that reaction, but they just canlt expect immigrants to always do the dirty jobs, and they should accept that immigrants are just as capable as anyone else.

[Fel]

The Mexican people should be fixing their own country instead of jumping on our bandwagon.
If they're really all that hardworking and industrious, then they should be capable of effecting political change south of the border.

[Asphyxiate]

Originally Posted by Aisu

I believe that the US has to take blame the coming and going of immigration. If they would have done something from the beggining, when things started to fill up, then they wouldnlt have to worry right now about what to build in order to keep them away. The US is said to be the land of oportunity but as many could notice the immigrant will do any kind of job in order to have food on the table. Americans are just a little bit picker (not that it is a bad thing) however, the american does not complain when immigrant take such low jobs, but as time proceeds, immigrants escalete on their posts, and eventually surpass the job of an average american. And only then, the american will get angry. I half agree with that reaction, but they just canlt expect immigrants to always do the dirty jobs, and they should accept that immigrants are just as capable as anyone else.

You have to understand, it's nowhere as simple as that. 'In the beginning', if they could have foreseen the future as such, maybe there wouldn't be a drug problem either, or people publishing internet porn because of the freedom of the press/speech. Plus, exactly how would you have stopped it?

The new bills are not attacking immigrants, they're looking for a reform in immigration laws. There is a vast difference, we aren't jealous because legal immigrants are taking jobs. The need for better security on the border is not just for issues of illegal immigration, but also illegal activity. And like Zero said, we aren't obligated to help the world, it's a nice idealogy, but what's nice is not always practical. Good intentions do not automatically mean we should attempt it.

I am a legal immigrant. The public is not jealous of the fact that my parents are rich, or that the other asians and I are so dominant academically.

Originally Posted by Fel

The Mexican people should be fixing their own country instead of jumping on our bandwagon.
If they're really all that hardworking and industrious, then they should be capable of effecting political change south of the border.

Exactly. You can't expect the world to change for you, you have to change the world. America too was new at one point, running from your problems solves nothing.

And no, the money pouring out from the US does not in fact help the states that are receiving it. It actually lopsides the economy and just makes the state more dependent upon the US.

[tanuki]

This isn't the first time the subject of what to do about the situation with illegal aliens and giving them amnesty has come up. I won't even try to quote all the direct and indirect actual consequences that have come from giving illegals in the US amnesty in the past, those interested can read the following:

http://www.cis.org/articles/1997/back197.htm

I will quote one section though,

"In ten years the United States has paid out $156.7 for the direct and indirect costs of the legalized population, but has received a little more than half that back in taxes — $78 billion. That figure would be substantially higher if expressed in 1996 dollars. The total fiscal deficit of $78.7 billion amounts to a government subsidy to each member of the 1987 legalized population of $29,148. A subsidy of that amount would have enabled most amnesty seekers to establish a farm or business and remain in their home countries."

In sum, amnesty didn't prove to be a very good solution. Which may in part explain why members of the House of Representatives have been so determined this time in starting off with measures intended to prevent more illegal aliens from crossing the border into the US. If a boat on the water has a hole in the bottom, just dealing with the accumulation of water inside the boat solves nothing until the hole is repaired. That was what was missing from the past amnesty, a determined attempt to do whatever was needed (even if it was costly in the short term to do so) to prevent more illegals from crossing the border in future years....so the leaky border was never fully repaired and now almost 20 years later there are illegal aliens in the country and once again there is a proposal for another amnesty on the table for discussion.

[Zero Shinohara]

If they're really all that hardworking and industrious, then they should be capable of effecting political change south of the border.

Exactly. You can't expect the world to change for you, you have to change the world. America too was new at one point, running from your problems solves nothing.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you both at that matter. As I said earlier, I also come from a country which has been facing difficult economical (Well, not that much) and political problems for over 20 years now. Truth be told that the masses are laid back, lazy and lack any kind of willpower to do anything right now, because the new generation (70-90's) is now completely stupid to whatever happens around them. Everything is the US's fault or someone else's fault; the reason why there're 36 million people in there who're now below the poverty line is the US's fault, or politicians whose salaries range from 15 to 20k dollars a month so they can sit in congress and do nothing. Or maybe Dancing because their party colleagues have been wrongly freed from the accusation of being part of an enormous corruption system which has as final result the stealing of over 500 million dollars from the national treasury..

It's true that if they really wanted, the population could, truly, do something about it. But this is where we get into the problem of HOW they would do this. As I said, my people were completely brainwashed to think that everything was good as long as they got their 7 dollars a month for each kid they had in school, so that the government could get over billions from the UN and IMF because "literacy levels were rising" (My ass they were. My cousin studied his first 4 years of elementary school in the public school system and when he was asked the most basic questions to get in school here in the US [in our language], he failed all of them and was held back one year.). You also have the problem with organized crime. Mexico, Colombia, Brazil, Venezuela, Bolivia and many others have huge problems with organized crime, especially drug dealers. These guys don't WANT the system to change, because:

1) They get to bring drugs in the US for free using the illegals who are trying to get here to live a worthy life.
2) They get to control the police, government and everything else. What else could they want?
3) They have nobody against them. And if they do, they either get rid of them or have someone else to their job. (The case with Chavez's militants trying to scare off the American officials in Venezuela. Their lives have been threatened more than twice by these stupid nationalists.)

It's not something the population of these countries can get rid of easly, that I can surely tell you. The communists have worked quite well in Central and South America, especially after the fall of the Berlim Wall. Which, by the way, caused Castro to declare that "We would regain in South America what was lost in Eastern Europe". It's an entire system of brainwashing of the masses. And you know that in a democracy, it's the one who gets more votes who wins. Doesn't mean that he's the best.

BUT, I'm just trying to get you guys to realize that it's not something we could easly change. I do want the enforcement of the laws and the immigration laws to be more strict than what they are now.

I believe that the US has to take blame the coming and going of immigration. If they would have done something from the beggining, when things started to fill up, then they wouldnlt have to worry right now about what to build in order to keep them away. The US is said to be the land of oportunity but as many could notice the immigrant will do any kind of job in order to have food on the table. Americans are just a little bit picker (not that it is a bad thing) however, the american does not complain when immigrant take such low jobs, but as time proceeds, immigrants escalete on their posts, and eventually surpass the job of an average american. And only then, the american will get angry. I half agree with that reaction, but they just canlt expect immigrants to always do the dirty jobs, and they should accept that immigrants are just as capable as anyone else.

Well, I don't think that it's a matter of being capable or not. Don't they say that everyone is equal? (Although I don't quite believe this.) Immigrants who're here legally can actually have a pretty good life, with high-paying jobs and everything else. A lof of the people who've been through the hardships of being an illegal will use the chance they have as legals to do the best they can to pay off their debt to America; that, at least, is what I get from most of the people I know and have seen. And about it being the US's fault... well, let's start with the root of the problem: Central and South america are poor; hella poor. Is that really the US's fault? Nope. America doesn't have colonies around the world like Britain, France and other countries had not so long ago (and still have, come on. British/French Guyana anyone? Aruba maybe?). But where are they going? To the countries which they were originally colonies from? Nope. To the US.

True they could have done something from the start, but I think that during the 90's nobody thought it would eventually become such a big problem. With the fall of the wall of Berlim and most SA/CA countries actually starting to develop more after many military regimes that were deposed, everyone was all smile. Clinton's america included.